Ram 2500 or F-250 Suer Duty?

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by 2002sheds

Hi All,
In yet another departure from my Floor 'n Frame thread, I have a question for you fine people..
A good friend of mine was towing his 31 foot AS down the mountain from Tahoe in their 3/4 ton truck and had a scary situation in which the "umbilical cord" became detached and the truck had to do all of the braking. They came out of it okay, but bought a much larger truck shortly after, mainly to give them some additional mass.
I am heeding his advice and that of others, and yesterday sold my beloved 2001 Dodge Dakota Quad cab that had a towing capacity that maxed out at around 8,000 pounds. It was fantastic for our little pop-up, but now feels a bit small against the weight of the 1970 Ambassador that we purchased a few months back. I did purchase a weight distributing hitch, as advised here on Air Forums.
We already have an SUV (2008 Porsche Cayenne with a towing capacity of 7,700 pounds). I have been told that it is unwise to use that vehicle (I believe on this forum) because the wheel base is somewhat short. I definitely do not like the idea of the "tail wagging the dog"... I am now searching for a truck that will be used almost only for towing, and the occasional run to the lumber yard...Which brings me to my question:

Between a 2003 Ram 2500 Quad cab 4x4 with 139k miles and
a (also) 2003 Ford F-250 Super Duty Crew Cab with 129k miles, do any of you have a clear favorite? Both are outfitted for towing, both are private sales (not dealer).

I have narrowed my search to these vehicles based on the following requirements -- quad/crew cab, towing capacity that is as close to double (or higher) than the anticipated weight of the AS, under 150k miles if possible, and price of $10k or less (if possible). This vehicle will go into "suspended animation" in that it will only be used 4k or less per year, in all likelihood.

If there is another truck that you like, please let me know. I am actively searching, but am still open to suggestion.


Thanks!
David

Wait, they were towing with. 3/4 ton and bought a bigger truck? The 3/4 ton brakes are the same as the one ton. What did they end up getting?

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Never said I took wood out of state. Our trips are almost all in state. Not retired or F/T.

But getting a feel for how much gear you carry is a very pertinent topic.

What’s funny is you can’t move firewood because of a pest spread by wood pallets, which move freely from state to state.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

Don’t know about that, but frames are designed to bend or break ,if you will, in a head on....ever see the video with a 2002 Chevy head on with a 1959 Chevrolet ? The driver in the 59 lost, the new Chevy driver bruised his knee...the frame bent down and under the car....

You can google the crash test video for the Ford and the Ram. Let us know what you find. I recommend the slight offset rigid barrier (SORB) test as a start.

By the way, the 59 Chevy tested had no engine. No contest. I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Malibu.

[Nightmare67]

Interesting video here.

https://youtu.be/_f3CAnH7WIM

[roundwillie2]

Originally Posted by 2002sheds

Hi All,
In yet another departure from my Floor 'n Frame thread, I have a question for you fine people..
A good friend of mine was towing his 31 foot AS down the mountain from Tahoe in their 3/4 ton truck and had a scary situation in which the "umbilical cord" became detached and the truck had to do all of the braking. They came out of it okay, but bought a much larger truck shortly after, mainly to give them some additional mass.
I am heeding his advice and that of others, and yesterday sold my beloved 2001 Dodge Dakota Quad cab that had a towing capacity that maxed out at around 8,000 pounds. It was fantastic for our little pop-up, but now feels a bit small against the weight of the 1970 Ambassador that we purchased a few months back. I did purchase a weight distributing hitch, as advised here on Air Forums.
We already have an SUV (2008 Porsche Cayenne with a towing capacity of 7,700 pounds). I have been told that it is unwise to use that vehicle (I believe on this forum) because the wheel base is somewhat short. I definitely do not like the idea of the "tail wagging the dog"... I am now searching for a truck that will be used almost only for towing, and the occasional run to the lumber yard...Which brings me to my question:

Between a 2003 Ram 2500 Quad cab 4x4 with 139k miles and
a (also) 2003 Ford F-250 Super Duty Crew Cab with 129k miles, do any of you have a clear favorite? Both are outfitted for towing, both are private sales (not dealer).

I have narrowed my search to these vehicles based on the following requirements -- quad/crew cab, towing capacity that is as close to double (or higher) than the anticipated weight of the AS, under 150k miles if possible, and price of $10k or less (if possible). This vehicle will go into "suspended animation" in that it will only be used 4k or less per year, in all likelihood.

If there is another truck that you like, please let me know. I am actively searching, but am still open to suggestion.


Thanks!
David

My 07 4 door 2500 Dodge Ram Diesel has been one of the wises things I have ever purchase for my traveling needs. Never a problem and I bought it used with 189,000 miles on it. For a Diesel 200k miles and it just getting broke in; plus, my diesel mechanic says go Dodge (he won't even work on a Ford) it's easier to work on than any Ford or Chevelot. It pulls like a dream and the mileage is great. The longer you run it on the road pulling---the better the mileage get! Rides great, conformable, hauls a lot in the bed (which is covered) while I'm pulling a 25 Excello. Never comes out of cruise control going up hills. Sometimes, I think it would still pull my AS even if it had 4 flat tires. My recommendation go RAM.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by 2002sheds

...
We already have an SUV (2008 Porsche Cayenne with a towing capacity of 7,700 pounds). I have been told that it is unwise to use that vehicle (I believe on this forum) because the wheel base is somewhat short. I definitely do not like the idea of the "tail wagging the dog"...

I would have no reservation using a Porsche Cayenne to tow that vintage of trailer.

The wheelbase isn't particularly short (only if you compare to a pickup). At the same time, it's rear overhang is very short (much shorter than a pickup).

Point is that it's wheelbase to rear overhang ratio is actually very good, which is the key geometry that matters (not wheelbase alone). A trailer isn't going to have much leverage to cause any yaw. And it's braking and traction is going to be many fold better than a heavy duty truck.

Where it's not as awesome is that it doesn't have as much mass. But your trailer isn't particularly heavy. The good wheelbase to overhang ratio, stiff multi-link independent suspension, and low profile tires will lend itself well to towing.

Where my personal line is in using the platform is going beyond the documented capacities, as the unibody build is not particularly designed to handle really heavy trailers (which yours is not).

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by 2002sheds

Thanks for the additional responses! I should add that the 2003 Ram 2500 Quad Cab 4x4 has 139k miles and can be had for $9,000, while the 2003 F-250 Super Duty Crew Cab has 129k miles and is priced at $9,900.



Still, at least so far I am leaning towards the Ram.





Thanks,

David

The Dodge is easily the better choice. I’ve a 2004. Had Ford been better back then I’d have bought it.

I worked Dodge trucks in the oilfield. The Ford owners couldn’t keep to the demanding schedule of hotshot work. Lots of fairly new ones available cheap during. 2011-2015. Giveaways, when they were the 6.0 motor and 6.4. Earlier models it was the poor mating of V8 diesel and manual trans.

The man trans is the way to go. Very easy to use.

2WD trumps 4WD. On the Dodge it’s with IFS plus rack & pinion steering.

Per class, it’s suspension sophistication and steering that makes the choice for a TV.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

Come now, he can tow it with a BMW mini. It is the stopping and getting it around slow bends on a down slope descent that might get a bit hairy.
You ignore the laws of physics at your peril.

The OP has a 2008 Porsche Cayenne that has a curb weight of almost 5500 lbs, with disc brakes that are huge, vented, cross-drilled and slotted, with probably 6 piston FIXED, not floating calipers up front, and just as exotic out back; big sticky tires with a fairly low center of gravity and sport suspension. The SUV has a far better hp/ton than any pick up out there. The Cayenne is a huge torque monster as well to boot.

I know the laws of gravity, especially the laws that state that a heavier moving mass requires more force (braking) to stop.....in plain english, a 3/4 ton pickup and his trailer will require bigger brakes than his Porsche is equipped with in order to stop in the same distance that his Porsche and trailer will stop in. No N/A pick up has bigger brakes than his Porsche has.

How about the law that the higher your center of gravity is, the more likely you will tip over.......in plain english, a 3/4 ton pick up has a higher center of gravity than does the OP's Porsche Cayenne.

Last but not least, the Porsche's mass will be fairly close to 50/50 over both axles, once the trailer is attached, versus your pick ups 60/40 split, if that?

How about them laws?

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

[2002sheds]

Hi All,
I took the advice of SK Tony and Tom T (and maybe one more of you?) and called Andy Thompson at Can-Am RV. Andy (and his family) has been dealing in Airstreams since the year ours was made -- 1970. Andy sounds like someone who has forgotten more than I will ever know about towing Airstreams
I explained that I was calling because of my friend's experience when coming down the mountain. Fairly quickly, Andy asked if I knew if my friend had downshifted or had been mainly applying the brakes while coming downhill. I told him I didn't know, but that I was pretty sure that my friend's truck was an automatic transmission and that it would not surprise me if he was using the brakes. And then said that it almost doesn't matter what size the brakes are in those conditions -- that the brakes are likely going to overheat if downshifting was not involved. I have since spoken to my friend again, and found out that his 1985 AS was 8,500 pounds dry and that he was, in fact, only using the brakes. Without even knowing why I asked, he said "Lesson learned there..."
I mentioned to Andy that my 2008 Porsche Cayenne was deemed to be too small by some (including an experienced tow truck operator, who told me that the wheelbase on the cayenne is too short), and Andy replied that the Cayenne is one of the better options as a tow vehicle for this trailer :-)
I have been given some great advice over the last couple of days, thanks to you folks! Early on (as in several months ago), Mojo was very helpful in dispelling my fears about using the Cayenne as a TV for this AS. After hearing my friend's story, I was alarmed and forgot to ask basic questions about the situation (including the weight of his AS compared to the towing capacity of his truck, and about what happened). As Tony asked, I was trying to justify the purchase of a bigger truck. And as Tom T pointed out, getting up into the 4 x 4 cab was not going to get any easier in the coming years.
The most basic thing that I think I have learned, though, is that the vehicle I already have is more than a match for our 1970 Ambassador -- if I do not revert to my more stupid self :-) If I display common sense and good driving practices (along with great tips like using a zip tie to further secure the umbilical cord attachment, the mass of my car (well over 4,000 pounds) and the geometry (as pointed out by Tom T and Andy), along with those sticky Pirelli tires and gargantuan disc brakes on all 4 wheels (as pointed out by America's favorite sidekick, Tony) should put me pretty much even with a number of 3/4 ton pickups -- at least the ones I can afford as a second vehicle and not daily driver. As far as replacing my Dodge Dakota, I will buy a utility trailer and save a small amount per month in insurance costs.
My friend talked also about his newer truck -- a Ram diesel. He spoke about the ability to slow down using the engine, like the really big trucks. He told me I am welcome to borrow it, to see if I like it. I am saving up for an extension ladder, so I can get in
Thanks again for the great info! I may yet buy a big truck, but for now, I am going to enjoy the daylights out of towing with the Cayenne.


Thanks,
David

[2002sheds]

Hi All,
One other valuable lesson I learned through this whole process is to not only double check my spelling in my posts, but that once the first post is submitted, there is no chance to edit...with apologies to Ford...

[Rzrbrn]

What a great post and responses. I have learned a lot.

I noted with shock that some folks have lost the electrical connection between TT and TV resulting in loss of TT brakes.

I am not certain this is sufficient to address the loss of the connection but I have always secured my 7 pin by tying it to the TV.

I don't use zip ties because I don't like the idea of introducing yet more plastic into the environment, as a result of having to snip it when unhooking.

I have used the Camco 39103 Multi Clamp (Amazon) but I checked the connection while on the road one time and the thing had fallen apart, too many little plastic parts to the design.

So I bought about 4 feet of 10 gauge solid copper insulated wire. Solid because once twisted to secure it is much less likely to come apart than the multi strand wire. I cut pieces as needed, about 6-8" long and use this to wrap around the 7 pin female and male connection when mated. I have found this to be much more reliable and secure.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

The OP has a 2008 Porsche Cayenne that has a curb weight of almost 5500 lbs, with disc brakes that are huge, vented, cross-drilled and slotted, with probably 6 piston FIXED, not floating calipers up front, and just as exotic out back; big sticky tires with a fairly low center of gravity and sport suspension. The SUV has a far better hp/ton than any pick up out there. The Cayenne is a huge torque monster as well to boot.

I know the laws of gravity, especially the laws that state that a heavier moving mass requires more force (braking) to stop.....in plain english, a 3/4 ton pickup and his trailer will require bigger brakes than his Porsche is equipped with in order to stop in the same distance that his Porsche and trailer will stop in. No N/A pick up has bigger brakes than his Porsche has.

How about the law that the higher your center of gravity is, the more likely you will tip over.......in plain english, a 3/4 ton pick up has a higher center of gravity than does the OP's Porsche Cayenne.

Last but not least, the Porsche's mass will be fairly close to 50/50 over both axles, once the trailer is attached, versus your pick ups 60/40 split, if that?

How about them laws?

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

Well than go for it dude, knock yourself out.
Meanwhile I will stick with my 3/4 ton diesel if you don't mind.

[2002sheds]

Hi Burn, All,
I think you are onto something about securing that connection between the umbilical cord and the TV. The zip tie is a great idea, but you are right about it generating waste. There probably is a version of a zip tie that can be used multiple times, or another solution that will come to light. Based on the responses to this post, I think the brainpower is out there to solve this


Thanks,
David

[crispyboy]

I believe the zip tie can be slid on/off the connector to be reused and not snipped each time.
You could also try a velcro strap. I use these for binding up extension cords and hoses.

[2002sheds]

Hi Cris,
Great idea! I have some giant twist tie things that I use for cords. They could possibly be employed in the same way as the Velcro straps you are talking about...



Thanks,
David

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

I have mentioned this before. I will again. You loose most of whatever credibility you are trying to achieve when you denigrate people.
This is exactly what you are doing when you choose the word “ludicrously”.
Bruce

Hey Bruce,

While I assume that your comment is well intended, I in NO way denigrated Frank nor any other Big 3 truck owner. Neither he, you, I nor any other Big 3 truck owner, renter, user has any control over what the manufacturers do to make their truck what they think is more marketable.

Ludicrously high trucks is squarely aimed at the truck makers who feel that they need to jack up the trucks much more than is feasibly necessary for actual usability. They're just putting extension blocks/etc. into the suspension to raise them up for looks - especially on 4x4's, because there is no way that the suspension under full compression comes anywhere close to topping out in the 18-24"+ above the tires, & the ground clearance is still limited by the bottom of the differential & other suspension components hanging down there.

It's simply done for the oooo-ahhh effect, as one of my buddies says - who is a 30+ year Ford truck mechanic for a CA dealership. Half & three-quarter ton pick-ups were nowhere near as jacked-up in the 1950's through early 2000's - unless somebody was doing so themselves, & those worked just fine - in fact better - for towing & work trucks, than do the wannabe "monster trucks" being made since the mid-2000's.

If you read my first post to the OP David, that is essentially what I said, in addition to giving fair feedback on both the F250 & RAM 2500 examples which I've been using for the past 6 years (all were 4x4).

This too high truck problem since 2006~08-ish MYs has been the subject of numerous automotive, construction, truck & other industry articles. In fact, many of the trucks are too high for gooseneck clearance of the bed walls.

So my "ludicrous" is meant to put down this stupid idea - but aimed at the makers - not any users/owners per se. It's just mass marketing silliness!

However, I was primarily responding to Frank's incorrect info about not being able to tow the OP's/David's 1970 29' AS with his Cayenne - which is just not factual.

I know that there are the 2 camps on here of truck only & other TV's work too - but let's at least stick to the facts. After all, Airstream & the other "silver twinkie" vintage kin were designed to be lighter weight travel trailer options which could be safely towed by the family car (properly equipped of course).

So rather than spreading misinformation that some properly rated vehicles can't or shouldn't tow, let's all just give room for both options.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

While Chevy trucks & VW Tauoregs are not the direct subject of this thread, they are comparable to this Cayenne vs 3/4 ton Pickup discussion on here. Tauoreg is a stablemate & cousin to the Cayenne, & built on the same platform side-by-side in the same plant as the OP's/David's era Cayenne. It has a 5.0L V10 TDI, vs the dually-equipped Chevy 6.7L (??) V8 TDI.

Just for fun, look at the article & utube video, but place your bets - or assumptions on the outcome first before watching, & see if you got it right.

https://jalopnik.com/5972180/watch-a...n-a-tug-of-war

Power-to-weight ration does matter. BTW the V10 was put into the VWs & Ausis in order to homolgate the Audi V10 Diesel for the Le Mans races which they dominated for several years.

Enjoy!
Tom
///////

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

While Chevy trucks & VW Tauoregs are not the direct subject of this thread, they are comparable to this Cayenne vs 3/4 ton Pickup discussion on here. Tauoreg is a stablemate & cousin to the Cayenne, & built on the same platform side-by-side in the same plant as the OP's/David's era Cayenne. It has a 5.0L V10 TDI, vs the dually-equipped Chevy 6.7L (??) V8 TDI.

Just for fun, look at the article & utube video, but place your bets - or assumptions on the outcome first before watching, & see if you got it right.

https://jalopnik.com/5972180/watch-a...n-a-tug-of-war

Power-to-weight ration does matter. BTW the V10 was put into the VWs & Ausis in order to homolgate the Audi V10 Diesel for the Le Mans races which they dominated for several years.

Enjoy!
Tom
///////

Yup, seen that video.....I'm guessing the redneck had his beloved truck for sale right quick.

As you stated in a previous post, I too am not questioning anyone's decision to buy a truck; get what size you want; but don't tell someone that their fully capable vehicle isn't going to cut the mustard.

I'm glad the OP stepped away from the Kool-aid.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

[Isuzusweet]

To the OP:

I pulled this little tidbit from 2008 Cayenne specs:

"In addition, all Cayenne models are equipped with standard Porsche Stability Management including pre-loading of the braking system, ABS, and a new Trailer Stability Control."

Check your owners manual for a full explanation.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

[2002sheds]

Hi Tom T, SKT,
Looking for the manual now... I may have driven the Pepper with a bit more gusto today, after what I learned here, from a previous exchange with Mojo and in talking with Andy :-)
I am definitely eager to put these learnings to the test.


Thanks,
David