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Old 03-26-2018, 05:24 AM   #21
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Either of those trucks should be fine and sound like a good deal. Pick the one that you think is in the best condition. I would want the truck to have disc brakes all around.

I tow a 25' that weighs 6300 lbs with a 3/4 ton and it does not seem like too much truck at all. My rivets are fine. I have had the connection to the brakes fail 3 times for various reasons. Though not on a 25 mile downgrade. The truck brakes handle the trailer just fine. My truck is a Ram short wheelbase. It rides rough empty. I guess that is not an issue if you just tow. I would compare the ride of the 2 trucks.

I have a friend with a Porsche SUV. He tows his small Airstream with a 3/4 ton.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:44 AM   #22
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Having seen the results of both the Ford and the Dodge in a collision. The Ford super duty has a much stronger frame and you will survive a head on collision better in the Ford if you are so unfortunate to be involved in one.
Just something to consider.
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Gamehawkers View Post
Having seen the results of both the Ford and the Dodge in a collision. The Ford super duty has a much stronger frame and you will survive a head on collision better in the Ford if you are so unfortunate to be involved in one.
Just something to consider.
Don’t know about that, but frames are designed to bend or break ,if you will, in a head on....ever see the video with a 2002 Chevy head on with a 1959 Chevrolet ? The driver in the 59 lost, the new Chevy driver bruised his knee...the frame bent down and under the car....
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:51 AM   #24
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Feel free to believe what you want.
I worked as collision reconstructionist a
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by 2002sheds View Post
Hi All,
In yet another departure from my Floor 'n Frame thread, I have a question for you fine people..
A good friend of mine was towing his 31 foot AS down the mountain from Tahoe in their 3/4 ton truck and had a scary situation in which the "umbilical cord" became detached and the truck had to do all of the braking. They came out of it okay, but bought a much larger truck shortly after, mainly to give them some additional mass.
I am heeding his advice and that of others, and yesterday sold my beloved 2001 Dodge Dakota Quad cab that had a towing capacity that maxed out at around 8,000 pounds. It was fantastic for our little pop-up, but now feels a bit small against the weight of the 1970 Ambassador that we purchased a few months back. I did purchase a weight distributing hitch, as advised here on Air Forums.
We already have an SUV (2008 Porsche Cayenne with a towing capacity of 7,700 pounds). I have been told that it is unwise to use that vehicle (I believe on this forum) because the wheel base is somewhat short. I definitely do not like the idea of the "tail wagging the dog"... I am now searching for a truck that will be used almost only for towing, and the occasional run to the lumber yard...Which brings me to my question:

Between a 2003 Ram 2500 Quad cab 4x4 with 139k miles and
a (also) 2003 Ford F-250 Super Duty Crew Cab with 129k miles, do any of you have a clear favorite? Both are outfitted for towing, both are private sales (not dealer).

I have narrowed my search to these vehicles based on the following requirements -- quad/crew cab, towing capacity that is as close to double (or higher) than the anticipated weight of the AS, under 150k miles if possible, and price of $10k or less (if possible). This vehicle will go into "suspended animation" in that it will only be used 4k or less per year, in all likelihood.

If there is another truck that you like, please let me know. I am actively searching, but am still open to suggestion.


Thanks!
David
Bigger is better when towing especially since it’s not a daily driver. 2500 or 3500 dodge, ford or Gm. Diesel best, don’t look back
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:16 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002sheds View Post
Hi All,
In yet another departure from my Floor 'n Frame thread, I have a question for you fine people..
A good friend of mine was towing his 31 foot AS down the mountain from Tahoe in their 3/4 ton truck and had a scary situation in which the "umbilical cord" became detached and the truck had to do all of the braking. They came out of it okay, but bought a much larger truck shortly after, mainly to give them some additional mass.
I am heeding his advice and that of others, and yesterday sold my beloved 2001 Dodge Dakota Quad cab that had a towing capacity that maxed out at around 8,000 pounds. It was fantastic for our little pop-up, but now feels a bit small against the weight of the 1970 Ambassador that we purchased a few months back. I did purchase a weight distributing hitch, as advised here on Air Forums.
We already have an SUV (2008 Porsche Cayenne with a towing capacity of 7,700 pounds). I have been told that it is unwise to use that vehicle (I believe on this forum) because the wheel base is somewhat short. I definitely do not like the idea of the "tail wagging the dog"... I am now searching for a truck that will be used almost only for towing, and the occasional run to the lumber yard...Which brings me to my question:

Between a 2003 Ram 2500 Quad cab 4x4 with 139k miles and
a (also) 2003 Ford F-250 Super Duty Crew Cab with 129k miles, do any of you have a clear favorite? Both are outfitted for towing, both are private sales (not dealer).

I have narrowed my search to these vehicles based on the following requirements -- quad/crew cab, towing capacity that is as close to double (or higher) than the anticipated weight of the AS, under 150k miles if possible, and price of $10k or less (if possible). This vehicle will go into "suspended animation" in that it will only be used 4k or less per year, in all likelihood.

If there is another truck that you like, please let me know. I am actively searching, but am still open to suggestion.


Thanks!
David

Are you looking for diesel? I just commented about this elsewhere and getting up the mountain is just the beginning - coming down is just as or more important. Diesels have engine braking and they can slow down the TV without too much braking.

Although I've never experienced the fright your friends had (nor would I want to), as far as I'm concerned the engine braking of a diesel made the decision for me.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:21 AM   #27
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That old picture tells the story. Most family vehicles in those days were being overloaded when hooked to a trailer. That’s why they invented weight distribution hitches. Because the vehicles would squat like that in the tail end making it a sketchy towing situation. HD trucks or SUV's today are designed with towing in mind. My stand has always been that if you need a weight distribution hitch to tow safely, then you need more truck. I’d get the Ford. The Ford 7.3 diesels will last over 500k miles if maintained properly. Mine did. The Dodge diesel from that era is prone to oil leaks. If you are going with gas engines, the Fords tend to have valve train issues after 150K miles, at least mine did. I have no experience with the Dodge gas engines though.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:29 AM   #28
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Before you buy a truck why not hook up the SUV and drive the trailer a short way, as in a couple of miles. If it pulls and stops ok, try going up a short and not overly steep mountain road. If that is Ok try going up a bit more challenging road. You will soon be able to tell at what point you feel uncomfortable.

Then borrow or rent a truck, hook up, and feel the difference.

I know a lot of people that pull trailers and boats with vehicles that I would not use. Search this forum by using "Cayenne" or maybe just "SUV". I was reading a long detailed post about just this subject last week, either here or the iRV2 forum, that talks about SUV vs Truck. I remember a couple of people pull with a Cayenne and would not have it any other way.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:43 AM   #29
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You're looking for a 3/4 ton to tow a 1970 29' trailer? The trailers of that era weighed significantly less than the trailers of today.

Holy mackerel, I wonder how many four ton 3/4 ton pick ups there were in 1970?

You're not just trying to justify to the dear wife your need for a huge truck are you?

Seriously, way to overkill. You'll rattle rivets right out of that trailer with a 3/4 ton.

I can guarantee you that Andy Thompson of Can-am RV in London Ontario never told you that the Porsche Cayenne couldn't tow that trailer........because it can......easily.

Just my HO.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony
Come now, he can tow it with a BMW mini. It is the stopping and getting it around slow bends on a down slope descent that might get a bit hairy.
You ignore the laws of physics at your peril.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:51 AM   #30
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OK, can't deal with the bringing your own firewood to camp sites. Unless they are in your own state please do not transport firewood to other states! Why? There are known problems now with the Emerald Ash beetle along with with several others. I know that in the Commonwealth of Virginia they frown on it and will ask you not to transport wood from home or cross even just County lines now. The ash beetle is killing off all of the ash trees now from Maine to Florida and starting West. I don't like being a naysayer for wood, but this is more than you and me. Please do not transport wood across state lines or at the least check with your state forester. Also the Chinese bugs being brought into the Country even by mistake is messing us up in this Country. So sad to lose the mighty ash, but it means cheaper wood until it is all gone.

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Old 03-26-2018, 11:06 AM   #31
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Great info!

Hi Russ, All,
Great comments -- thanks!

Russ, I hear you. I won't be transporting wood out of the immediate region.

What a great discussion this has been! I am definitely going with disc brakes all the way around. My Cayenne has them (they are truly massive), and it gives me a bit more confidence in my ability to stop in tough situations. Both the 2003 F-250 and 2003 Ram 2500 are equipped with discs, which is good.

Unfortunately, diesel is almost certainly out of my price range. The only ones I can afford have so many miles that even though the engine is probably sound, i am concerned about transmission and suspension, etc.

We are heading out to camp locally this weekend. I will be towing our little pop-up with the Cayenne. When we return, I will hook up the Ambassador and see how it pulls/responds. There are some short, steep canyons nearby to try at lower risk than 25 miles downhill at a 7% grade...


Thanks,
David
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:06 AM   #32
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Just another opinion about Tow Vehicles.

First comment: the picture of the International hooked to the AS looks as if it is NOT hitched properly. It appears that it either has NO WD hitch or WD hitch is not taking enough load. The front end is high, meaning it will not handle well. I know that pics can be deceiving, but that is what it looks like, to me.

Following is from an earlier post of mine about TVs.:

"Thanks to BillfromWI for the detail info about TV/AS trip to the scale.
Different ratings for GVWR and Axle ratings are common in truck specs.
Axle ratings depend on axel strength, bearings, and wheel and tire ratings.
GWWR includes all of these and several more things, like frame and brakes.

Each rating is independent and must be met for SAFE and LEGAL operation.
Even 100 lbs of overload is enough to get warrantee department and lawyers in a bad mood. Be safe: overkill in TV is not very expensive up front and very cheap in the long run.

I, too, had a less than perfect experience with a ½ ton truck as TV. After loading a motorcycle, generator, tools, people, fuel and TW, I was at the ragged edge of GVWR.
So I bought a Chevy 2500HD Duramax Diesel for more capacity and confidence.

BTW BillfromWI, was the Anderson hitch not adjustable for better forward bias of TW?

I agree that a scale is the best way to know the details, but there is another way to ‘guesstimate’ steer axel load. Measure the fender height at front and rear wheel opening when not loaded or towing. Then if your front clearance when loaded and hitched is greater than when unloaded, you have a problem. Poor steering control and handling because of reduced weight on steering axle. BOTH fender clearances should be less than when unloaded. This is only a GUESTIMATE! A starting point! The scale is the real answer."

Overkill in TVs is cheap insurance. And I never had a rivet problem with any properly setup TV or TT.

Good luck with your traveling setup.
Abe
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:22 AM   #33
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OK, can't deal with the bringing your own firewood to camp sites. Unless they are in your own state please do not transport firewood to other states! Why?
.



Russ Abbey

Floyd County Virginia


Never said I took wood out of state. Our trips are almost all in state. Not retired or F/T.

But getting a feel for how much gear you carry is a very pertinent topic.
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:36 AM   #34
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Hi David,

The bottom line is, for safety & legality, if you lose the trailer brakes, then pull over at the nearest safe spot & fix them or the 7-pin, or else have the AS towed on a flatbed to the nearest shop if it cannot be fixed in the field. You should NOT be buying a bigger TV in the hopes that you can tow without trailer brakes - & in CA you'll get a ticket for no trailer brakes once the trailer is 1500> lbs. anyway!

I agree with the comment above that your `08 955 Cayenne should be able to tow a vintage 70 AS, IMHO easily & more safely than a taller pick-up. It has a lower CG, shorter rear axle-to-receiver distance, bigger brakes' swept area (& contact area) relative to TV weight, power-to-weight ratio if a V8 or TDI V6, & will be a heck of a lot more comfortable on trips than a 3/4 ton (but look out for the truck only comments on this IMHO).

Check your AS owner's manual & calculate weights for the options & additions to yours, full tanks (LP, fresh, grey & black), WD hitch, & your usual stuff inside (there are pdf manuals that you can download somewhere on this site, if you don't have one) - to get an estimated GTW. I'd guess that your 70 AS weighs in at about 4000-4500 lbs "wet & loaded" for a trip, but load it up as you would for a trip, fill all the tanks, & take to the CAT or other scales loclly to get it's weight - tongue wt., total wt., axle(s) & wheels - then you'll know better what your lugging around.

Also, call Andy Thompson at CanAm RV in Ontario Canada & discuss towing with your Cayenne; & also look at the Cayenne/Touareg/Q7 topic on here to read about it. There are links there to Andy's towing & set-up of a modern & much heavier 30' with a Cay TDI which you should also read.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...rs-134917.html

However, if yours is the base V6, then you may want to pool your 3/4 ton money & Cayenne sale/trade-in money, to get a newer 2008-14 957 or 958 Cayenne S with the normally aspirated V8 to have more pulling power on steep & long grade - & less engine droning on long trips because the V6 is working harder at higher rpms than the V8 (or TDI), plus the gas V6 will get less mpg than the V8 when towing because it's working harder. The 2013-16 Cayenne TDI V6 Diesel is also a great TV, but you'll need to research & be comfortable with their Diesel-Gate fix & long term prospects for less support after the required 10-15 year period from new.

I have many CayS & TDI buddies in our PCA Zone 8 Porsche club, & so researched it heavily with them & elsewhere to figure out which Cayenne we want to buy - a 2008-14 CayS (stops at `14 since 2015> Porsche switched to the gas 3.6L TT V6, & 2019 will be 2.9L TT V6).

I can't speak for the earlier 2000's F250 & Dodge 2500's that you're talking about (RAM is still a Dodge IMHO - marketing BS aside), since I have no experience with them.

As for the newer 2012> 3/4 ton trucks, well my wife & I have be bearing with them as rentals from Enterprise Truck Rental since we got our `60 Avion T20 (est. 3000-3500 wet/loaded) in 2012 - both the RAM2500 & F250 in both gas & diesel V8s (& a 2012 1/2 ton F150 Ecoboost V6 once).

They're both huge beasts of 26-30'+ L depending upon cab & bed size (all are 4 door cabs) which make our Avion + TV rig 49-53' L (including the Hensley Cub length).

Below are my observations about the 2012-2018 MYs of both F250 & RAM 2500 trucks, from 3-6+ rentals per year for 6 model years are -

Both have much better interiors & seat comfort on long trips with the few upgrade interior ones which we've gotten (luck of the draw), & the standard base front seats are on the hard side on a longer than 1-1.5 hour trip, with both apparently sized for the foot-to-knee height of 6'+ drivers & no height adjustment on the base seats! This is very uncomfortable for those of us of average height, forcing us between having the too tall seat bottom cushion front-top edge digging into the backs of my knees, & to shift between that & a slouching posture to take the pressure off - so the upgraded seats with height adjustment is necessary, & should've been offered on the base seats (or more adjustment for those with manual height adj.);

Both are so heavy on their own, that they don't get any lower mpg with our T20 hitched up, & probably not with yours;

Both ride much rougher & bouncier than your Durango or Cayenne, especially with the longer wheelbases of bigger crew cabs &/or full sized 8' beds - & especially on washboard surfaces, such as on SR 126 through Santa Paula - & our T20 is running dead flat all the while, but the trucks jiggle our kidneys all the way!;

Both are way overkill for our & your lightweight trailers (1/2 ton pick-ups & SUVs are more than adequate),

Both have less braking power-by-weight than the Cayenne, & I still need to push the boost button on my Tekonsha on hard stops;

Both are waaaay too tall for normal humans - let alone for us in our 60's crawling up several feet to get into the cab! Many construction contractors I know now have higher workers comp & health insurance claims due to more injuries of workers loading materials into the now waist-high & higher load beds - just so the Big 3 marketing jerks can jack up the trucks an extra 12-18" so they "look beefy & cool".
What BS!

F250 - Has the better ride by a tad, their V8 TD is smoother running & less noisy (both gas V8s are about the same) - & theirs actually seems more powerful than the Dodge straight 6 TD 6.3L when pulling our small trailer (we just did a vintage rally last weekend with the I-6 6.3L TD RAM 2500, & last year were 6 2017 F250 6.7L V8 TDs, & the 2500 was definitely less powerful). F250s also require less drop in the tow bar or stinger by 2", although they jacked up the 2017> by 2" - it was 6", but now requiring an 8" drop stinger to match our +/-18" high hitch head stinger box on the Hensley (4" & 6" drops with a standard ball type tow bar respectively).

However, Ford has done something with their trailer light & bulb-out system as of the 2017 redesign (F250 also went to aluminum body), where it will NOT recognize our Avion's lights nor run them (except brake & TS with a bunch of fiddling & a Curt adapter for light-out bypass) - & I've checked them with other vehicles at the same time. Our T20's lights are all operable & incandescent - not LED. This was not a problem in <2016 models, nor with any of the RAM 2500 MYs - so check a rental or sale truck with your trailer lights first, if looking at a 2017> F250.

RAM 2500 - As noted above, while it has a higher receiver requiring an 8" drop stinger & probably a 6" drop normal tow bar with ball (the Hensley Cub & Arrow attach to the TT receiver with an enclosed ball within the unit's head sitting below the ball in the height position of a normal tow bar - so the receiver box on the Hensley hitch head is about 2" lower - same with ProPride). It's a matter of how hi Dodge mounts their receivers, since both Ford & RAM are equally overly jack-up trucks. This past weekend the crew cab long bed drove much rougher than the F250's long or short beds, the 6.3L I-6 TD sounded like an 18-wheeler - especially on acceleration & grades, it worked harder with less power response relative to the F250 TD V8s (which run almost gas-like). RAM 2500 gas V8s are equal to Ford's from my experience.

Also look at current & past Consumer Reports for reliability of both makes & any trucks that you consider, & have a PPI done by your own mechanic before buying (unless you're a mechanic yourself).

If you come down to the Pismo vintage rally in May, then swing by & say howdy, & we can chat more about this if you want. We'll still have a rental truck, since I don't have time to search for our CayS right now.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:41 AM   #35
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Both trucks would be good candidates for pulling your trailer but are reaching an age when they start to have suspension wear, vacuum hose rot, rust and other wear and tear. Do they have any service records? At this age prior maintenance will be key.
Find out if the Dodge has any front end suspension work (ball joints or track bar) or if the Ford has had the spark plug repairs completed (an expensive job).
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:46 AM   #36
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Come now, he can tow it with a BMW mini. It is the stopping and getting it around slow bends on a down slope descent that might get a bit hairy.
You ignore the laws of physics at your peril.
Frankly, .... Frank,

You are incorrect on that. Please take the time to read the Hitch Hints article starting at page 6 of the magazine article linked below, where they tow essentially the same trailer as yours - let alone the much lighter 1970 29' AS of the OP!

http://rvlifemag.dgtlpub.com/?i=2546

Sorry big truck only guys - but smaller TVs can & do safely pull our trailers all the time, & often do a better job with more power, better suspension, bigger brakes, lower & more comfortable rides, & lower center of gravity (CG) - than with your ludicrously higher jacked up trucks!

PS - The Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg/Atlas, & Audi Q7 are some of the few TVs tested & rated according to the SAE & Euro TUV standards. The US Big 3 didn't used to rate their trucks under those strict testing standards, & I don't know if they do now.

Facts are facts, Opinions are numerous, & usually multiple per person if you talk to a lawyer ("...on the other hand....").

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 03-26-2018, 12:33 PM   #37
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I just traded in my 2006 Ram 2500 with 5.9 Cummins engine for a 2018Ram 2500 with the 6.7 Cummins. I put 91,000+ miles on the '06 with very little maintenance costs. I towed my '82 Excella 34' all over the place and loved every minute of it. I haven't towed with the '18 yet but with 200 more foot pounds of torque and more horsepower I'm sure I'll love it. When I hit about 75K in the '06 I started getting around 20mpg and just cruising around in the '18 I'm getting 17.5 in traffic. I haven't towed with it yet but that starts next week on a long cross country trip from Texas to Georgia and I'm really looking forward to it.

I've owned Dodges back when they were Dodges before they became Rams and have loved every one I drove. It's all about going down a steep hill and watching that diesel decelerate. In my opinion you can't miss with a Dodge(Ram).

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Old 03-26-2018, 12:57 PM   #38
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Ram!!!

After ‘99 when Ford changed from the 7.3 they had a lot of problems with their engines. Mostly the turbos I believe. Got quite expensive. As far as the Cummins went, Some years are betters than others but all were OK. Motor On!!!
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Old 03-26-2018, 01:14 PM   #39
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I just traded in my 2006 Ram 2500 with 5.9 Cummins engine for a 2018Ram 2500 with the 6.7 Cummins. I put 91,000+ miles on the '06 with very little maintenance costs. I towed my '82 Excella 34' all over the place and loved every minute of it. I haven't towed with the '18 yet but with 200 more foot pounds of torque and more horsepower I'm sure I'll love it. When I hit about 75K in the '06 I started getting around 20mpg and just cruising around in the '18 I'm getting 17.5 in traffic. I haven't towed with it yet but that starts next week on a long cross country trip from Texas to Georgia and I'm really looking forward to it.

I've owned Dodges back when they were Dodges before they became Rams and have loved every one I drove. It's all about going down a steep hill and watching that diesel decelerate. In my opinion you can't miss with a Dodge(Ram).

Mac
Mac. You'll love the 2018. Not sure if you are aware of the differential break-in. My dealer suggested that we put 1000 miles on our 2016 before towing.
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Old 03-26-2018, 04:42 PM   #40
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...
Sorry big truck only guys - but smaller TVs can & do safely pull our trailers all the time, & often do a better job with more power, better suspension, bigger brakes, lower & more comfortable rides, & lower center of gravity (CG) - than with your ludicrously higher jacked up trucks!

Facts are facts, Opinions are numerous, & usually multiple per person if you talk to a lawyer ("...on the other hand....").

Cheers!
Tom
///////
I have mentioned this before. I will again. You loose most of whatever credibility you are trying to achieve when you denigrate people.
This is exactly what you are doing when you choose the word “ludicrously”.
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