Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by Knuff

I thought that I start a new Thread just with getting some information on different kind of setups and how people are feeling about their equipment. This is not for judging specific hitch setups, but just for gathering information about possible setups.

Let's start with our setup. We have been towing our 2014 20ft Flying Cloud with a 2014 Cayenne Diesel, equipped with an Equal-i-zer 10K. 15K miles in the last 18 months. We have no special hitch reinforcement.

We just traded our FC up to a 2015 International Signature 25FB and plan to use the same setup.

Towing so far is no big issue, plenty of power, never have the feeling that the Cayenne is/was too weak for the 20ft airstream - I have not had an uphill situation where I could not accelerate and this includes Tioga Pass in Yosemite and several other long inclines in CA and UT. Temp on the Pepper is usually 220-230 but can go up to 250 (rarely over) on long inclines. I usually drive it in Sport mode and switch to manual in mountainous terrain. Consumption is 18 MPG without paying attention to speed and with having fun on uphill climbs. 22 MPG is possible with attention.

Please tell me your experiences fellow VW, Porsche and Audi owners. I picked these three because Touareg/Cayenne is principally the same chassis and engine and the Q7 is closely related as well.

I have a Mercedes ML350 Bluetec SUV, same class of vehicle as VW/Porsche/Audi. I also have a 1/2 ton GMC pickup. The MB easily out-tows the GMC. It has more torque, a lower center of gravity, independent suspension, better brakes, all-wheel drive and better turning circle. Not to mention comfort and driving ease. The axle ratings, the base weight and GVWR are similar. The cost for the MB and a fully loaded pickup are about the same. The pickup is built on a frame so its hitch is stronger than the unibody SUV. However the hitch is very well attached on the SUV and needs no reinforcement. I tried towing my 28 with the GMC but my transmission started smoking on a small hill and I had to switch to the MB.

[dasams]

Originally Posted by Cayenne-airs

I am a current owner of a 23ft corner bedroom flying cloud. We love it so far, but finding the bedroom cramped. The 25ft front bedroom model best meets our needs.

My tow vehicle is 2014 Porsche Cayenne GTS.

In Aug '16, we bought a 25 RB Flying Cloud but didn't like the cramped bed. In Aug '17, we traded it in for a 27 FB. Wife's very happy with the queen bed We have a 2006 CS with the 4.8L V8 & air suspension and she towed like a champ.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Cayenne-airs

Upgrading to 25ft with a Cayenne
Dear lovely members / airstream enthusiasts,

I am a current owner of a 23ft corner bedroom flying cloud. We love it so far, but finding the bedroom cramped. The 25ft front bedroom model best meets our needs.

My tow vehicle is 2014 Porsche Cayenne GTS. Now using stabilize bar. It has been working great and smooth towing.

What about upgrade to the 25ft model? The airstream dealer is not sure it’s a good idea since the tongue weight rating for the cayenne is 617. And the airstream 25ft hitch weight is 800s.

I am reading that some are towing 25ft with similar SUV to cayenne such as Q7.

Advice pls! Ideas? Ok idea to upgrade ? Any one out there with cayenne and 25ft AS?

What hitch/weight distribution system would you recommend? Any risk of damage to the cayenne?

Thanks!

Cayenne-airs,


I think that you're off too low on your CayGTS's tongue wt. rating. 617 sounds like the lower rating for the Cayenne e-Hybrid - which is reduced due to the additional EV batteries' wt.



Pretty much all 3 of the V/A/P cousins SUVs are rated the same - Touareg, Cayenne & Audi Q7 for the same towing & tongue wt. (hitch wt.) at 7716 lbs. towing capacity & 770 HW regardless of model year & regardless of which engine from 3.6L VR6 to 3.0 TDI to NA & Turbo V8s - with the exception of the e-Hybrid/Hybrid, & IIRC the Q7 is down to about 7000 lbs/700 HW due to the added wt. of the longer 3 row vehicle.



Your 2014 CayGTS should have a tow rating of 7716 lbs, with a "bearing" hitch capacity of around 700-770 lbs., with a higher HW rating if weight distributed (check the sticker on your factory hitch receiver).



So unless the 25FB has more than the distributed tongue wt., you should be fine - as others on here have said (go back & read some other posts in this very long topic).


Also keep in mind that Porsche doesn't tout their WD rating, because WD hitches are illegal in most/all of Europe & the UK - but they do have well hidden WD ratings for the factory hitch which are higher than the "bearing" HW, & sometimes both are listed on the factory hitch decal.


If you don't have a factory hitch - i.e. an aftermarket one - then can it & get a proper factory hitch with all of the electronics that allow the Cay to automatically adjust the engine, trans, brakes, sway control, etc. to operate as soon as you connect to the trailer tow bar. Sunset Porsche up near you (Portland area IIRC) has the best pricing & discounts on the parts - including the 958 factory hitch. It will need to be dealer installed - or at least the Cay reprogrammed after installation by another.



I got a Hensley Cub (good for trailers up to 6000 lbs) to use it on smaller TVs like the Cay etc. & have been very happy with it's "zero sway" sway elimination system (our vintage 1960 Avion T20 is about 3500 lbs with 542 tongue wt. as currently configured). If your wet & loaded 25FB will be more than 6000 lbs., then you'll need to look at the Hensley Arrow &/or ProPride hitches of the same/similar PPP design for trailers up to 10,000 lbs. I'm very happy with our H-Cub!



There are also other WD/AS hitches out there which others use, that you'll see by reading prior posts in here.


Contact Andy T. at CanAm in Ontario Canada about hitch reinforcement for your Cayenne, which he can send you pix & info to have a local shop do it (if needed), since you're in the PNW far from his shop. He also has other replies in this topic's long thread worth reading, as well as a few others towing 25 (FB & other) with their Cayennes.


I'd suggest that you spend an evening(s) reading through this topic to get up to speed on a number of Cayenne related issues.


Also I recco that you join up with PCA if not already a member, since for $46/yr. for 2 members, you'll get an excellent monthly Panorama magazine & a local Region's one, a bunch of fun events & activities which are free to minimal cost, discounts on parts etc., & a local group of fellow Cay owners to help. If already a member - then you know this!



Cheers!
Tom
///////

[ARF]

We have towed our 2017 FC 27FB over 40K miles with our 2015 Audi Q5 TDI. Curtis Hitch reinforced by CanAm along with custom ball assembly, anti-sway and weight distribution bars. We now live in Summit County, CO and have crossed the Continental Divide and numerous other passes at least 20 times.

Recently had the VW dieselgate recall work done and have not towed yet. Fuel mileage is down from 30 25 mpg because we live at 10K feet. Will post if towing power affected.

[Cayenne-airs]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

Cayenne-airs,


I think that you're off too low on your CayGTS's tongue wt. rating. 617 sounds like the lower rating for the Cayenne e-Hybrid - which is reduced due to the additional EV batteries' wt.



Pretty much all 3 of the V/A/P cousins SUVs are rated the same - Touareg, Cayenne & Audi Q7 for the same towing & tongue wt. (hitch wt.) at 7716 lbs. towing capacity & 770 HW regardless of model year & regardless of which engine from 3.6L VR6 to 3.0 TDI to NA & Turbo V8s - with the exception of the e-Hybrid/Hybrid, & IIRC the Q7 is down to about 7000 lbs/700 HW due to the added wt. of the longer 3 row vehicle.



Your 2014 CayGTS should have a tow rating of 7716 lbs, with a "bearing" hitch capacity of around 700-770 lbs., with a higher HW rating if weight distributed (check the sticker on your factory hitch receiver).



So unless the 25FB has more than the distributed tongue wt., you should be fine - as others on here have said (go back & read some other posts in this very long topic).


Also keep in mind that Porsche doesn't tout their WD rating, because WD hitches are illegal in most/all of Europe & the UK - but they do have well hidden WD ratings for the factory hitch which are higher than the "bearing" HW, & sometimes both are listed on the factory hitch decal.


If you don't have a factory hitch - i.e. an aftermarket one - then can it & get a proper factory hitch with all of the electronics that allow the Cay to automatically adjust the engine, trans, brakes, sway control, etc. to operate as soon as you connect to the trailer tow bar. Sunset Porsche up near you (Portland area IIRC) has the best pricing & discounts on the parts - including the 958 factory hitch. It will need to be dealer installed - or at least the Cay reprogrammed after installation by another.



I got a Hensley Cub (good for trailers up to 6000 lbs) to use it on smaller TVs like the Cay etc. & have been very happy with it's "zero sway" sway elimination system (our vintage 1960 Avion T20 is about 3500 lbs with 542 tongue wt. as currently configured). If your wet & loaded 25FB will be more than 6000 lbs., then you'll need to look at the Hensley Arrow &/or ProPride hitches of the same/similar PPP design for trailers up to 10,000 lbs. I'm very happy with our H-Cub!



There are also other WD/AS hitches out there which others use, that you'll see by reading prior posts in here.


Contact Andy T. at CanAm in Ontario Canada about hitch reinforcement for your Cayenne, which he can send you pix & info to have a local shop do it (if needed), since you're in the PNW far from his shop. He also has other replies in this topic's long thread worth reading, as well as a few others towing 25 (FB & other) with their Cayennes.


I'd suggest that you spend an evening(s) reading through this topic to get up to speed on a number of Cayenne related issues.


Also I recco that you join up with PCA if not already a member, since for $46/yr. for 2 members, you'll get an excellent monthly Panorama magazine & a local Region's one, a bunch of fun events & activities which are free to minimal cost, discounts on parts etc., & a local group of fellow Cay owners to help. If already a member - then you know this!



Cheers!
Tom
///////

Dear Tom, Thank you so very much for the great info! this is very thorough. I did have the hitch installed by the Porsche dealership. I do need to look up the sticker info. I have sent a message to Andy, waiting to hear back.

It is interesting since the 2016 27FT international serenity has lower hitch weight than the 25foot. Regardless based on your experience and others, we should be ok.

Now the only issue is to sell our newly bought 23foot flying cloud. Trading it back to the dealer requires a big loss. We just got it a few months ago!

thanks again-

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Cayenne-airs

Dear Tom, Thank you so very much for the great info! this is very thorough. I did have the hitch installed by the Porsche dealership. I do need to look up the sticker info. I have sent a message to Andy, waiting to hear back.

It is interesting since the 2016 27FT international serenity has lower hitch weight than the 25foot. Regardless based on your experience and others, we should be ok.

Now the only issue is to sell our newly bought 23foot flying cloud. Trading it back to the dealer requires a big loss. We just got it a few months ago!

thanks again-

Cayenne-airs,


The hitch wt is a factor of balance over the trailer's axles - so models with heavier stuff forward will have a heavier HW than the same length other model (e.g.: FB vs RB, etc.).


You can affect this some both up & down, by how you load the trailer, levels of tanks & where they sit F to R, etc. You can get a Sherline hitch scale to weigh & adjust your loading & get the exact HW as wet & loaded.


FYI - Andy T's article on towing an AS 30' with a CayTDI - go to pg. 6 -

http://rvlifemag.dgtlpub.com/?i=2546


Since all Cayennes are rated the same regardless of drivetrain (except hybrid with heavy batteries) - this being a TDI won't be different than your GTS.




FYI #2 - What else a Cay can tow! -

https://interestingengineering.com/p...enger-aircraft



Cheers!
Tom
///////

[1919]

Originally Posted by Knuff

I thought that I start a new Thread just with getting some information on different kind of setups and how people are feeling about their equipment. This is not for judging specific hitch setups, but just for gathering information about possible setups.

Let's start with our setup. We have been towing our 2014 20ft Flying Cloud with a 2014 Cayenne Diesel, equipped with an Equal-i-zer 10K. 15K miles in the last 18 months. We have no special hitch reinforcement.

We just traded our FC up to a 2015 International Signature 25FB and plan to use the same setup.

Towing so far is no big issue, plenty of power, never have the feeling that the Cayenne is/was too weak for the 20ft airstream - I have not had an uphill situation where I could not accelerate and this includes Tioga Pass in Yosemite and several other long inclines in CA and UT. Temp on the Pepper is usually 220-230 but can go up to 250 (rarely over) on long inclines. I usually drive it in Sport mode and switch to manual in mountainous terrain. Consumption is 18 MPG without paying attention to speed and with having fun on uphill climbs. 22 MPG is possible with attention.

Please tell me your experiences fellow VW, Porsche and Audi owners. I picked these three because Touareg/Cayenne is principally the same chassis and engine and the Q7 is closely related as well.

I have had a 2017 Audi Q7 with standard suspension, and currently have a 2018 Q7 with the air suspension. The spring suspension towed better, in my opinion. Yes the air self levels and all that, and it tows just fine, but the springs were firmer, less wishy washy transient motions.

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

...


FYI - Andy T's article on towing an AS 30' with a CayTDI - go to pg. 6 -

http://rvlifemag.dgtlpub.com/?i=2546
...

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Link just gives me a list of issues.

FYI the weight rating did change at some point in the model years from 770 if I remember correctly to 660 (guessing at the specific numbers).

Al

[Cayenne-airs]

Tom, thank you for the link. Which volume/number do I click on for the mentioned cayenne TDI article ?

On a side note, what recommendations do you have about selling back my 23F FC? The Dealer wants 14,000$ less after several months of selling it to me lol.

Thanks. - -Ali

[Cayenne-airs]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

Link just gives me a list of issues.

FYI the weight rating did change at some point in the model years from 770 if I remember correctly to 660 (guessing at the specific numbers).

Al

This is interesting point. I have read 660 somewhere.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

Link just gives me a list of issues.

FYI the weight rating did change at some point in the model years from 770 if I remember correctly to 660 (guessing at the specific numbers).

Al

Al & Ali -


When I click on it, that link takes me directly to Vol. 41 No. 7, then you need to go to page 6 in the digital magazine to the right for the start of the article, which should enlarge when you click on the page. I'm using Firefox, & don't think it should make any difference, but pick that issue/vol. if it gives others a list of issues to select.


As for the HW ratings - if they changed, then use what's on the hitch receiver sticker, because others in this topic have said that the owners manuals are all over the place. Somebody posted the official Porsche rating from the factory service manual & it said that they were all the same, but even their online data, owners manual & the hitch receiver stickers conflict!


So I really don't understand why Porsche AG/PCNA can't get their acts together on their ratings for which they actually tested the Cayenne under both the German & USA-DOT using the SAE procedure!? But then they usually cannot get their COAs correct on most classic P-cars either. I think it's the result of poor coordination between staffs in different departments.


If you think about it, if they're tow rating them for 7700 lbs +/- (7716 lbs if you convert from KGs) - then they have to rate the hitches for at least 10% by law - 770 lbs! So a 660 HW would only allow for a 6600 lbs tow rating.



Ergo, I think that there is probably a staff problem with not using their actual tested ratings, & shooting from the hip on "hey, what's the Cayenne tow & hitch rating again?" (in der Deutsche of course) - brought to you by the same folks who screwed up the TDIs for us all with DieselGate.


Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Cayenne-airs

Tom, thank you for the link. Which volume/number do I click on for the mentioned cayenne TDI article ?

On a side note, what recommendations do you have about selling back my 23F FC? The Dealer wants 14,000$ less after several months of selling it to me lol.

Thanks. - -Ali

Ali - the dealer is trying to screw you on the trade-in. If they have another trailer that you want, then tell them to give you the now current full private party sale value in trade, or you'll go elsewhere to buy the 25FB or whatever. You can get values on KBB.com & NADA.com for recent years' Airstreams.


Otherwise, look up your AS's current private party seller value on those websites, then just list it for a private sale. You may have to locate your replacement trailer before you list for sale, unless you're willing to go without until you find another one to buy.


Also as an alternative - have you ever considered getting a restored older vintage trailer - AS or one of it's former competitors? The older Airstreams were generally better built than the current crop of Thor owned ASs, as you can see from all of the posts of problems with new ASs on here. And most of the 1950s - 80's competitor "Silver Twinkies" were better made than the ASs - e.g.: Avion, Silverstreak, etc.


Another advantage to a 1979 & earlier vintage/classic, is that it opens up the world of Vintage Trailer Rallies around the country - in addition to basic camping. You'll make friends at the rallies whom you'll see at many events year after year, as opposed to strangers in some campground, & they have all sorts of fun events at the rallies (look at the Vintage Camper Trailer Magazine website to see what goes on).


You can probably find a nicely restored 25' range vintage with all of the same conveniences as your current or any new AS (well maybe no induction ranges, but it's camping!) - for about the same price or less. And some of the older classic floorplans & especially with the vintage kin, were better & more usable than the new ASs.



Also, the classics/vintage are lighter weight from the factory, than are the new ones, largely due to the lack of heavier particleboard cabinets/etc. - since classic ones used lighter weight marine plywood & finishes. So you may have less of a weight concern.



For example, our 20'-6" 1960 Avion T20 is only about 3500 lbs wet & loaded with its options with 542 weighed HW with the 160# Hensley Cub WD/AS hitch & 2x 30# LP tanks full on the A-frame (2860 lbs factory wt & 285 HW according to the original manual). Whereas, a comparable new 2012 AS Bambi Sport 20' was +/- 4650 lbs dry/empty/excl. options! Since we have all of the conveniences & appliances as the AS, that's almost +2000 lbs more dry wt & even +1200 lbs over wet/loaded/options of our `60 Avion!



Note that our Avion is wider & taller & 6" longer in overall & body lengths with far more headroom & storage, than was that 2012 20' Bambi Sport. So that's all from more weight in cheaper & heavier materials used in current AS construction. Plus we don't pop out rivets constantly on every trip, as do the new ASs!



Anyway - it's food for thought.


Cheers!
Tom
///////

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

As for the HW ratings - if they changed, then use what's on the hitch receiver sticker, because others in this topic have said that the owners manuals are all over the place. Somebody posted the official Porsche rating from the factory service manual & it said that they were all the same, but even their online data, owners manual & the hitch receiver stickers conflict!

So I really don't understand why Porsche AG/PCNA can't get their acts together on their ratings for which they actually tested the Cayenne under both the German & USA-DOT using the SAE procedure!? But then they usually cannot get their COAs correct on most classic P-cars either. I think it's the result of poor coordination between staffs in different departments.

If you think about it, if they're tow rating them for 7700 lbs +/- (7716 lbs if you convert from KGs) - then they have to rate the hitches for at least 10% by law - 770 lbs! So a 660 HW would only allow for a 6600 lbs tow rating.

Ergo, I think that there is probably a staff problem with not using their actual tested ratings, & shooting from the hip on "hey, what's the Cayenne tow & hitch rating again?" (in der Deutsche of course) - brought to you by the same folks who screwed up the TDIs for us all with DieselGate.

I have read more about the Touareg than the Porsche, but there is a long history on the Touareg boards about changes to the hitch rating from year to year. At one point the VW owner's manuals didn't agree with the ratings on the hitch stickers, and owners were advised to contact VW, who would send them new hitch stickers stating 7700 lbs. Lots of posters remarked that they had been able to get new stickers from VW. Others had hitch ratings (on the stickers) of 616 lbs and wanted the 770 lb stickers so they could do 10% tongue weight. That doesn't imply to me that any VW/Porsche hitch can be deemed to be rated 770 lbs, but simply that the design/testing/certification process was somewhat vague.

My interpretation, simply from following it, is that the 3500 kg vehicle rating (7716 lb) was applied because that is the break point in EU laws for hitch ratings. Above that there are different requirements, so many manufacturers rated their vehicles and hitches up to 3500 kg. For North America, 7716 got translated to 7700 because it was a round number.

Meanwhile, tongue weight wasn't an issue in Europe, where the vehicle engineers all lived and worked, since they used 5%. It wasn't a limiting factor. Someone decided that the North American number is 10% (due to trailers having different design characteristics) and so they just applied 770 lbs as a rating based on that. Someone else said that they could use 8%, and that came out to 616 lbs, so that was used some years. I don't think that either 616 lbs or 770 lbs represents a limiting capacity, it was just a calculated figure. That is supported by the willingness on the part of the manufacturer to change it if requested to do so. Beyond 770 lbs, the vehicle may be capable, up to the limits of axle and tire ratings, but the hitch receiver itself may or may not require reinforcement to handle the loads.

There are some specific vehicle models on the same platform that were rated at 6600 lb towing capacity, so 660 lbs was just 10% of that.

I don't think the story was particularly complicated. I don't think that the tongue weight ratings were tested in terms of being limiting factors, they were simply applied after design as a convention, more than anything.

[Cayenne-airs]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

Link just gives me a list of issues.

FYI the weight rating did change at some point in the model years from 770 if I remember correctly to 660 (guessing at the specific numbers).

Al

I reached out to the Porsche dealer- they sent me the hitch sticker I think- it says cayenne S-max trailer hitch load 616lb . The AS dealer doesn't recommend the 25 or 27 FT wants me to sign papers if I want those options.

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

Al & Ali -


When I click on it, that link takes me directly to Vol. 41 No. 7, then you need to go to page 6 in the digital magazine to the right for the start of the article, which should enlarge when you click on the page. I'm using Firefox, & don't think it should make any difference, but pick that issue/vol. if it gives others a list of issues to select.

...

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Works on my laptop. I was on my iPad. Link needs Flash and Apple won't allow it.

Al

[foster2]

Originally Posted by Cayenne-airs

I reached out to the Porsche dealer- they sent me the hitch sticker I think- it says cayenne S-max trailer hitch load 616lb . The AS dealer doesn't recommend the 25 or 27 FT wants me to sign papers if I want those options.

I’ve been pulling an fb27 with equalizer hitch for several years now with a 2014 cayenne diesel without issue. The fb models have a bit less hitch weight so it works out well. Diesel gets 18 mpg while pulling without any trouble. The only critical factor is tire pressures, you need to make sure Porsche is at full load pressure and as is at 65 psi.

[Cayenne-airs]

If the rated pressure is at 47, is it ok to go to 65? I have the 21” continental

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Cayenne-airs

If the rated pressure is at 47, is it ok to go to 65? I have the 21” continental

No, the 65 reference is to the AS, not your tow vehicle.

[Cayenne-airs]

I see thanks for clarification. I always felt unsafe putting air more than the sticker amount. Mine says 50. But I can try the higher value.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Cayenne-airs

I see thanks for clarification. I always felt unsafe putting air more than the sticker amount. Mine says 50. But I can try the higher value.

Never use more than the Max pressure that's cast/printed into the tire's sidewall - whether on trailer or TV tires.


Cheers!
Tom
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