Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners

[ChiAir]

Originally Posted by Sweendk

Thought I would post a picture of our rig.

This was taken in Kentucky in March. It was my first occasion to tow in a snowstorm (at Rocky Top).

It's time to brag about the 2016 Cayenne S. I know there is a desire by some to get the earlier, V8 powered S. My turbo V6 has amazing grunt towing up hills! I put the car in Sport mode, use Cruise Control, and let the software shift for me. It anticipates downshifting better than I can. Also, the engine management software pours in boost as the engine lugs back, bringing the torque way up. It couldn't be better!

Have fun out there!
Kirk

No doubt the turbo 6 will make a lot more torque and make it down lower than a naturally aspirated v8. I do worry about maintenance with turbos but that may be unfounded. I'm in the V8 S because that's what we could afford. I do not like cruise control while towing over hills with *my* Cayenne. The engine has to work harder than I'd like on the uphills to maintain an even speed. I'd rather lose a few mph while maintaining more or less even throttle. I'd be curious what what its like in the turbo 6. Enjoy your Cayenne and Airstream!

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Sweendk

Thought I would post a picture of our rig.

This was taken in Kentucky in March. It was my first occasion to tow in a snowstorm (at Rocky Top).

It's time to brag about the 2016 Cayenne S. I know there is a desire by some to get the earlier, V8 powered S. My turbo V6 has amazing grunt towing up hills! I put the car in Sport mode, use Cruise Control, and let the software shift for me. It anticipates downshifting better than I can. Also, the engine management software pours in boost as the engine lugs back, bringing the torque way up. It couldn't be better!

Have fun out there!
Kirk

Hi Kirk,

When you get outside of mostly flat or mild grades of IL & surrounding states, what RPMs are you typically turning to keep at even 65+/- while towing uphill?

Same question for freeway cruising at 65-70+/- on the flat freeways on long trips?

And how noisy is the cabin for the 2 above on long trips?

Also, what MPG are you getting while towing?

I'd love to be able to expand our search to include the newer V6 CS's, but am one of those concerned about the noise level & work level of the smaller engine dragging a relatively heavy & less aerodynamic object behind it on a long XC trip & over steeper grades.

I wish I could just go out to rent a CS TT-V6 to try towing our Avion to one of our vintage trailer rallies as a test run!

Also as a long term vehicle owner - vs. those who prefer to trade every 3-5+/- years into another new one under a warranty - I too am concerned over the added maintenance cost of twin turbos at Porsche parts & Labor pricing, as ChiAir said.

Also, the meager 1-2 MPG bump in City/Hwy/Avg mpg on the TT V6 CS hardly justifies dropping the NA V8 CS in my opinion, & would've preferred to see Porsche keep the CS as a NA V8, & introduce another model in between the base V6 (which IIRC is the tuned VW VR6 3.0 up to the 2017 MY), or wherever in their line-up - since they're always adding new "flavors" of all their cars to fill some market niche anyway.

Thanx for your input before, & to my questions above.

Cheers!
Tom
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[dasams]

Originally Posted by ChiAir

I'm in the V8 S because that's what we could afford. I do not like cruise control while towing over hills with *my* Cayenne. The engine has to work harder than I'd like on the uphills to maintain an even speed. I'd rather lose a few mph while maintaining more or less even throttle.

I've towed 25,000+ miles over the past 20 months and used cruise control whenever traffic allowed. Agreed that I don't like its insistence on maintaining the precise speed instead of a ~5-10 mph drop on the hills. Mine's nearly 13 yrs old so I can't complain. Hope the newer software has that figured out.

On a related note, I've made it a habit to downshift when we approach a hill so as not to lug the engine. Dave

[ChiAir]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

Hi Kirk,

When you get outside of mostly flat or mild grades of IL & surrounding states, what RPMs are you typically turning to keep at even 65+/- while towing uphill?

Same question for freeway cruising at 65-70+/- on the flat freeways on long trips?

And how noisy is the cabin for the 2 above on long trips?

Also, what MPG are you getting while towing?

I'd love to be able to expand our search to include the newer V6 CS's, but am one of those concerned about the noise level & work level of the smaller engine dragging a relatively heavy & less aerodynamic object behind it on a long XC trip & over steeper grades.

I wish I could just go out to rent a CS TT-V6 to try towing our Avion to one of our vintage trailer rallies as a test run!

Also as a long term vehicle owner - vs. those who prefer to trade every 3-5+/- years into another new one under a warranty - I too am concerned over the added maintenance cost of twin turbos at Porsche parts & Labor pricing, as ChiAir said.

Also, the meager 1-2 MPG bump in City/Hwy/Avg mpg on the TT V6 CS hardly justifies dropping the NA V8 CS in my opinion, & would've preferred to see Porsche keep the CS as a NA V8, & introduce another model in between the base V6 (which IIRC is the tuned VW VR6 3.0 up to the 2017 MY), or wherever in their line-up - since they're always adding new "flavors" of all their cars to fill some market niche anyway.

Thanx for your input before, & to my questions above.

Cheers!
Tom
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I remember our mpg was around 10 or so with a 2012 V8. I'll have to look at the rpms again to give you precise numbers but I'm thinking it was around 2000 rpm (maybe less?) on flat surface at 65 mph. I do remember being impressed and I had the feeling that engine wasn't breaking a sweat. It feels about as quiet as not towing. Even doing hills in lower gear at higher rpms you can hear the engine working but its not unpleasant at all. Porsche really did a job with sound deadening. Its my favorite highway car ever.

I had to do a lot more work as a driver at 75mph and I don't think I'll go that fast again. The mpg goes down a lot is my understanding. wind resistance goes up dramatically at that speed.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by ChiAir

I remember our mpg was around 10 or so with a 2012 V8. I'll have to look at the rpms again to give you precise numbers but I'm thinking it was around 2000 rpm (maybe less?) on flat surface at 65 mph. I do remember being impressed and I had the feeling that engine wasn't breaking a sweat. It feels about as quiet as not towing. Even doing hills in lower gear at higher rpms you can hear the engine working but its not unpleasant at all. Porsche really did a job with sound deadening. Its my favorite highway car ever.

I had to do a lot more work as a driver at 75mph and I don't think I'll go that fast again. The mpg goes down a lot is my understanding. wind resistance goes up dramatically at that speed.

Hi ChiAir -

We've been looking off-n-on for a nice low mile 2008-10 957 or 2011-14 958 V8 Cay S ourselves to tow our vintage kin 1960 Avion T20, which is about 3000-3500 lbs wet & loaded with 542 lbs HW ithe the Hensley Cub & 2x 30 lb LP tanks on the tongue & full fresh water at the front wall under the dinette.

So I'm confident that the NA V8 will work fine for us without all the noise & high revving, & the consensus on this thread & elsewhere seems to be 13+/- mpg avg from other owners on here while towing.

I was wondering what the rpm, noise & mpg while towing factors were for Kirk with his `16 CS 3.6L TT V6.

We did briefly entertain a Macan S with that tame 3.6L V6 TT motor for our TV, but the Mrs wants more room & cargo for her purposes.

Back in 2013 we rented 3 Nissan Pathfinders with their 4.0L V6 (NA - not turbo) & they all worked hard & revved high on the grades, & was constantly hunting gears (CVT?).

While they weren't a Porsche Cayenne - we're sensitive to not having those noise & high rpm etc issues for us on grades &/or longer trips.

I'm also trying to get a smaller mid-sized SUV with a good power non-turbo V8 & without air suspension which will make a stable TV which can also maneuver in our very tight driveway & street access (drive 8' with min 20" clear each side off of a 36' w street with parking on both sides in an old town area).

So our sweet spot for a KISS Cayenne is the 2008-14 Cay S NA V8 .... in something other than black & with the factory backup camera & factory tow option (or add their hitch), which has turned out to be harder to find than I expected.

But then the 2008-10 coolant "horseshoe" connections problem, & the 2011-2012.5 cam adjuster bolt problem came up - not to mention the Deiselgate problem on what could've been a good option to the V8 - & put monkey wrenches in our Cayenne search!

If you haven't checked for your 2012 CS V8's cam adjuster bolts - then look if it has the adjuster head part no. ending in -021 - & if it does, then stop driving it & send it on a flatbed to your local Porsche dealer for Recall AH08! This is a serious flaw in that you can lose power brakes & steering &/or fuel pump depending which side/both fails, seize the engine at speed or on winding roads, or at the very least trash a $35,000 motor with interference valves-pistons &/or the bolt fragments running through the engine - with possible injury or death if it happens "at the wrong time" in traffic, at speed, on a twisty, etc.!

Do NOT trust them to tell you to just drive it, nor that the VIN is not in the range (the range is irrelevant if the part was used in any Porsche V8 during 2011-12), but look into the head cover(s) at the filler cap to get the part number, using the techniques at the 1st link below:

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...s-failure.html

https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=17V368#recalls360


Anyhoo - Thanx for the info on your 2012.

Cheers!
Tom
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[cedonly]

We have a 2012 Cayenne v6 (supercharged engin from the Audi s4). Technically this is the Cayenne s hybrid, but towing on the highway, the electric engine doesn’t kick in.. so I am ignoring that factor in my response.

We tow a 2013 20ft fc with 600lb tongue weight and 4500 trailer weight. We get 13-15 mpg up to 70 mph (we upgraded to 16” trailer rims and bead balances in the tires).

The engine runs fine all day and on flat ground rpms are just around 2000.

We are very happy with the capability of this tow vehicle

[Vabound]

We just bought an International Signature 23fb to pull Eith our 2013 Cayenne diesel. We're not sure of the need for the WD with this set up. Looks like most do use the WD. Thoughts?
(PS - sold the 2015 Interstate)

[Andrew T]

Absolutely you need a weight distribution and sway control set up properly. If you like send me an email andy@canamrv.ca I can send you a couple of files on how to configure it properly.

[Sweendk]

Howdy all,
Looks like I need to do some ‘splainin… ha!
Re turbo durability: Years ago we had issues with turbo life (oil coking, etc). I’m not at all worried about the newer designs. I believe that, by now, the turbo manufacturers and Porsche have this figured out.
Engine RPM: I have to try to remember… The car keeps the engine RPM quite low. 1300-2000 depending. Yes, I do downshift occasionally when I’m approaching a larger hill.
Noise? No, the car is NOT noisy at low RPMs lugging. Of course, there is more exhaust noise, but really, nothing objectionable.
Mileage? In the Smokies I saw 10.3. On flatland, or slower, mid to high 11s. I expected this, of course..
So far, I’m very happy with the car and it’s towing performance.
Kirk

[Andrew T]

You might want to consider shifting manually to keep the engine RPM in the 2200 - 2700 range when towing. Even though it will tow it easily at the lower RPM it is in boost all the time and the torque converter clutch is under quite a bit of pressure.

I ran a Taurus SHO for 3 years with the 3.5 Echoboost (as Ford calls it) on it I had an electronic gauge set that plugged into the data port. It would tow easily at 1800 RPM but the exhaust temp would go to 1500 degrees the ignition timing was at 5 degrees advance and the fuel dwell would open way up. Shifting back one gear cooled the exhaust to 1100 ran the timing to 25 degrees advanced and gave me 2 more MPG.

My Jag has a supercharged 5.0 Litre and I get better mileage in 5th than 6th gear with it as well. Interesting it gets a little better mileage towing than my 4.2 Litre Jag did. Not nearly as good solo though might be the operator.

Andy

[ChiAir]

Would you suggest to keep the rpm between 2200 and 2700 in the normally aspirated V8? On flat land the auto wants to be 8th gear and I believe that’s under 2200 rpm.

[Andrew T]

I would the V8 as well.

Our 2014 Caravan has made at least 50 trips back from Indiana pulling tall square trailers in 3rd gear at 3500 rpm. Another 100 trips towing less square trailers at 2800 in fourth. Tows an Airstream 2300 in fifth. It has 120,000 miles on it without any repairs. I just mention this to say that RPM is not as terrible as some would have you believe.

[ChiAir]

Thanks, Andy!

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

I would the V8 as well.

Our 2014 Caravan has made at least 50 trips back from Indiana pulling tall square trailers in 3rd gear at 3500 rpm. Another 100 trips towing less square trailers at 2800 in fourth. Tows an Airstream 2300 in fifth. It has 120,000 miles on it without any repairs. I just mention this to say that RPM is not as terrible as some would have you believe.

Just to clarify, I'm referring to constant very high revs on a long trip being mind numbing - not in the ranges to which Andy is referring.

The 3-4 - 2013 Nissan Pathfinders 4.0L V6s which we rented were constantly running at & searching gears for 4000-5000+/- RPM, which got old fast. I don't recall if it was a CVT in those days of the last body-on-frame truck based Pathfinders, but even if a normal AT, it was not fun Orange County (SoCal) to Pismo - so a full XC back East would NOT be fun for us.

The other thing about the N.A. V6's that I found out from my base Cayenne buddies who tow with the VW/Audi based normally aspirated V6 (VR6) was that they got better mpg city/hwy/avg when not towing by about 1-3 mpg over the N.A. V8 CayS, but that reversed when towing to the 10-11 mpg range on the V6, vs. 13-ish mpg towing with the non-turbo V8 (Cay Turbos were the same mpg as V6).

From Kirk's response at post #629 above on pg. 45, it sounds like the newer 2015-17 (2018?) 3.6L TT V6 CayS is getting the same VR6 range 10-11 mpg, but the low down rpm torque/power is better/higher, & his running/cruising rpm & noise is not an issue - which is good to know that we could make the later CS TT V6 work.

However, it remains to been seen how the new for 2019 2.9L TT V6 does with towing (I don't recall if the 2018 My is also the 2.9L).

We actually briefly considered the Macan S with that 3.6L TT V6 for our TV since the turbo has the max Torque kick in under 2000 rpm, but went back to the Cays search on the basis of the Mrs. wanting more interior & cargo space than in the Macan body/platform.

For those who daily drive their Cayennes primarily as daily drivers, kid haulers, etc. - then the V6 & Hybrid-V6 are maybe better overall choices (unless they want even more on road performance), & cedonly at post #626 on the prior page lists capabilities which are great - plus he gets to use the electric only for DD around town (within its electric-only range & speed profile). They Hybrids have about 1000 lbs less tow rating than the other Cayennes at 7716 lbs, due to the battery & hybrid drivetrain weight difference - so check that out relative to your TT. We actually could probably run that Hybrid too, since our Avion is a tad less weight than his 4500 lb (dry/empty wt.) 2013 20' FB.

While technically OT for this Euro TV thread, but still relevant to this Turbo-V6 vs N.A.-V8 discussion - I've also rented a 2012 Ford F150 with their 3.7L V6 Eco-Boost to tow our Avion (3000-3500 lbs wet & loaded & 542 lbs HW with the Hensley Cub), & that only got 13-15 mpg towing from Albuquerque to SoCal on both flat & mountain pass terrain, both freeway & some 2-laners on my Phoenix bypass.

Whereas the bigger/heavier F250 gas non-turbo V8's which we've been renting since 2014 are getting about 16-17 mpg whether towing or not on similar mixed freeway/2-laner & flat/grade routes (but shorter trips within CA) - & their diesel V8s are only 17-18 mpg either way too - & the 3/4 ton F250s are heavier than the F150 by 500-1000 lbs depending upon size of cab & bed for each (2017 MY F250 also went to aluminum bodies).

So there's some on-the-road truth in the fuel consumption being better with a bigger more powerful (TQ & HP) normally aspirated V8 engine working less hard to tow or haul a heavy load, than with a smaller displacement V6 being turbo'd to get the same/similar/more power curve out of a smaller motor - which results in the mfgrs. hitting the mpg test systems' targets for marketing & meeting CAFE mpg requirements - but not necessarily being better mpg in real life situations like towing & load hauling (latter mostly for pick-ups), as well as with even regular driving around town.

Certainly there has been evidence that the mfgrs are "gaming" the mpg tests to hit those targets - over the actual real life mpg performance (both Ford & Hyundai/Kia were found to have cheated on &/or mis/over-stated their vehicles' mpg a few years back).

Anyway, for our Cayenne which we're looking for - the primary mission will be towing, with some minimal daily, fun/pleasure & maybe spirited driving with the Porsche Club (PCA) events as secondary use - so mpg while towing is my primary factor in deciding to look at the N.A. V8 CayS - as well as the cruising rpm, noise & comfort factors for longish & XC trips, smaller size for our tight street & driveway. And comfort & big size are why the full sized SUV/Pick-up route is not on our list.

This thread is always presenting new info to learn - Thank you ALL!

Cheers!
Tom
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[TBDub]

Can AM installed a Curt hitch and the 7 Pin connector on my Touareg. I have atch'd a pic. When I picked up my trailer the connector came loose while driving and my lights weren't working. About to load up for our first trip and I plan to duct tape the male and female ends and then try to tape it to the A frame.

I'd just like to know if any of you had your 7 pin installed at Can Am and how you keep it secure and connected?

Thx,

TBDub

[rmkrum]

There should be a bracket on that connector, bolted somewhere near the hitch receiver. Looks like that is missing.

It should, IMHO, be part of the original installation...to keep it neat, tidy, and properly in place...

[KSA63]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

It should, IMHO, be part of the original installation...to keep it neat, tidy, and properly in place...

Regrettably, it looks like Cam-Am performed a functional but incomplete installation. Normally, a covered 7 pin receiver would be mounted near the hitch receiver. The cover of the hitch receiver would also operate as a lock keeping the trailer end secure In the socket.
Looks like you will need to manually secure your wiring with tape and/or a bungee/spring type device for now.
Kevin

Edited to add that when looking at the Curt hitch online it. Looks like they do not supply a place to mount the 7!pin harness. Looks like Canam did what they could in this situation.

[cedonly]

What I did for my Cayenne is to 3d print a holder for the connector. Then I screw the connector into the holder. The holder sits to the left of the trailer hitch and bolts to the heat shield between the exhaust and the plastic bumper. We have towed for three years now with no issues. This would require you to reroute the 7 pinto come out under the bumper.

-Charles

Originally Posted by TBDub

Can AM installed a Curt hitch and the 7 Pin connector on my Touareg. I have atch'd a pic. When I picked up my trailer the connector came loose while driving and my lights weren't working. About to load up for our first trip and I plan to duct tape the male and female ends and then try to tape it to the A frame.

I'd just like to know if any of you had your 7 pin installed at Can Am and how you keep it secure and connected?

Thx,

TBDub

[futureal]

Hi Fellas, I have a question. I have a 2013 Audi Q7 TDI I just had a dealer install OEM hitch assembly that has a sticker reflecting towing capacity of only 5512 lbs which i call total bluff on behalf of VW because this diesel V6 should pull at least 7500 lbs.

Now today I was walking and noticed a parked Porsche Cayenne with exactly same hitch assembly at least form outside what I thought was exact one. I looked a the label it states - 7700 lbs.!!!

I said to myself wow all that fuss about hitch weight capacity, i smell something fishy (VW, Audi, Diezel lawsuits, how misleading VW employees are/were etc on diezelgate) any way I check ebay for OEM Porsche Cayenne and Audi Q7 hitch assembly and I was able to pull the following images: they reflect exactly same assembly for both vehicles.
Therefore (engine torque / HP aside) this hitch on either car can handle 7700 lbs of towing capacity as far as I am concerned. I believe lower towing capacity on Audi may be due to engine HP or suspension or whatever Audi marketing department believed caused them to manipulate label on it with different figures than Cayenne

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by futureal

Hi Fellas, I have a question. I have a 2013 Audi Q7 TDI I just had a dealer install OEM hitch assembly that has a sticker reflecting towing capacity of only 5512 lbs which i call total bluff on behalf of VW because this diesel V6 should pull at least 7500 lbs.

Now today I was walking and noticed a parked Porsche Cayenne with exactly same hitch assembly at least form outside what I thought was exact one. I looked a the label it states - 7700 lbs.!!!

I said to myself wow all that fuss about hitch weight capacity, i smell something fishy (VW, Audi, Diezel lawsuits, how misleading VW employees are/were etc on diezelgate) any way I check ebay for OEM Porsche Cayenne and Audi Q7 hitch assembly and I was able to pull the following images: they reflect exactly same assembly for both vehicles.
Therefore (engine torque / HP aside) this hitch on either car can handle 7700 lbs of towing capacity as far as I am concerned. I believe lower towing capacity on Audi may be due to engine HP or suspension or whatever Audi marketing department believed caused them to manipulate label on it with different figures than Cayenne

The Q7 is longer with the 3rd row, therefore heavier, so you lose some tow rating due to the weight. The same thing happens with the Cayenne Hybrid due to the weight of batteries, so it's around 6K IIRC.


Towing capacity has to do with the total vehicle chassis - not just the engine, weight of the vehicle, fluids & 150# driver - & the net is the payload, towing capacity, etc. ratings.


So yes, your Q7 will tow less than the Cayenne or Toureg. The new VW Atlas is also 3 row/longer & rated at less than the Cayenne.


Cheers!
Tom
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