Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners

[Art King]

I tow our 2021 FC 23'FB with our 2019 Audi Q7 Prestige. It seems to be working very well. Plenty of power. Just went to Zion from Squaw Valley with no issues. We are new at towing a trailer. Anything we should know about towing with an Audi? We do have the built-in tow package. Our braking system was not working properly but seems to be OK now, or I'm just getting used to it.

Thanks, Art

[Ran35]

I just purchased a used 2007 23ft Safari SE. I'm pulling it with a 2015 BMW X-5 Diesel. I just towed it from Southern California to Northern California over 400 mile and pulled great!! I got close to 17MPG. It's going to be great to be a Airstream Owner!! Look forward to the forum..

Randy

[Andrew T]

Hi Randy
Are you using a weight distribution system?

[Brucedann]

Looking for advice if I need to reinforce my hitch, and how I would do this? TV is Porsche 2016 diesel. Towing now the 2019 23ft International ( which is very easy). I have ordered the new 25ftFB Globetrotter. On my 23, I moved the battery’s to the rear, run only one propane tank and removed the spare. TW is now at 550 lbs. Hitch is the EAZ Lift 1000.

The new 25FB has a rated TW of 882 lbs. Once I get this back to my shop, I again plan to move the battery’s to the rear, probably remove one tank and the spare. I have to pick this up from the dealer, some 150 miles from the shop. So, I am planning on asking them to remove the spare and place this at the very back plus the two tanks, all to reduce TW
on this 1st trip. Any recommendations of a good hitch RV installer in the SF Bay area
Bruce.

[Ran35]

I planning on get one, I’ve been been looking at a Fastway e2. Any suggestions?

[HappyHapgood]

Brucedann -

Great to get the hitch reinforced (that said, I am towing with a 2016 CD and a 28' Airstream and have NOT reinforced it and have had no negative impacts in over 30,000 miles of towing). BUT PLEASE be careful not to remove too much tongue weight. The tongue weight provides stability and if you get it too light and too much weight in the rear you will be an accident waiting to happen. And then all those F350's drivers will have ammunition to say how stupid we are for towing our Airstreams with tiny little SUV's that weigh less than the trailer! So PLEASE do REGULAR weighings with the TV and trailer, including disconnected to get empty weights and tongue weights, until you have a good feel what the water, full propane, etc will do to. your configuration.

You need AT LEAST 10% tongue weight to be safe. 12% is better. Personally I'd much rather put some extra strain on the CD rear towing connection points or even the rear axle than too little tongue weight. The former MIGHT cause some long term issue, but the latter could easily cause an instantaneous, unexpected and disastrous result.

Be safe!

[Brucedann]

Happy

So thanks for this, as to the TV, the Porsche TW is rated at some 770 lbs, we travel very light, almost no water as we do not boondock. The base wight of the 25 is 6074lbs, max GVWR is 7300lbs. So at to TW - my goal dry is around 770lbs which will be in the 12% area. I probably when fully loaded will be around 6600lbs, maybe 6800 - no more. I feel better as to talking to someone using the same TV for some 30K miles of towing.

So what hitch do you use? Also any issues over the long term with the CD. I basically only use this car as a TV, only 36000 miles. On the road flat with the 23 I get around 16-17 mpg, steep run up the Tahoe then down to 12mpg. I did get a high oil temp last year going to the mountains, but it was a 105 deg day. I did find using the Sport setting does help a bunch keeping the oil temp down.

Bruce

[Bier]

Originally Posted by Brucedann

...
So what hitch do you use? ...

Don't have it yet, but will be setting up our SQ7 with an Eaz-lift elite weight-distributing hitch. One nice advantage of these WDH is that it shifts about 1/3 of the tongue weight back to the trailer (or so the folks at canam have told me) when properly set up, which means less need to reduce tongue weight since the audi's have the same towing specs as the cayenne's. And yes, we are going to have the oem receiver reinforced as a "just in case" kind of thing.

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by Brucedann

Happy

So thanks for this, as to the TV, the Porsche TW is rated at some 770 lbs, we travel very light, almost no water as we do not boondock. The base wight of the 25 is 6074lbs, max GVWR is 7300lbs. So at to TW - my goal dry is around 770lbs which will be in the 12% area. I probably when fully loaded will be around 6600lbs, maybe 6800 - no more. I feel better as to talking to someone using the same TV for some 30K miles of towing.

So what hitch do you use? Also any issues over the long term with the CD. I basically only use this car as a TV, only 36000 miles. On the road flat with the 23 I get around 16-17 mpg, steep run up the Tahoe then down to 12mpg. I did get a high oil temp last year going to the mountains, but it was a 105 deg day. I did find using the Sport setting does help a bunch keeping the oil temp down.

Bruce

I tow our 27FB with a Cayenne and always use the Sport mode when towing. It changes the transmission shift points and keeps oil temps cooler. Feels almost like tow mode on the trucks. I just reset the suspension to Normal. I use the Reese Strait-Line Dual Cam hitch and it works very well for me. I also used the shortest shank I could find, I think it is about 9" from the pin to the center of the ball. We have not had the hitch reinforced and have had no issues with 3 trips from Northern Alberta to Southern California and back.

[HappyHapgood]

Brucedann,

Your weights and planning seem reasonable.

I do use a shortened shank - I had it cut as short as possible. Turn your trailer jack 90 degrees and you'll still be able to open the hatch most of the time :-)

I use an equalizer WDH with 1200 lb bars.

I have had oil temps bark twice on VERY hot days at high altitude. But I just reduced load (speed) a bit and it was fine. My trailer is 7,700 lbs. I have towed it several times up 11,000' passes and it does just fine.

I've also had transmission temp bark at me twice - both times going up some jeep roads with the trailer. Super low speed and very steep. Had to stop for a bit to cool down (no way to simply reduce "load"... I was already crawling). I though about adding a tranny cooler but decided it wasn't worth the effort. I also looked at adding an aux oil cooler... it's all but impossible.

Cayenne is 100% completely stock.

[mdwstnr]

Originally Posted by Art King

I tow our 2021 FC 23'FB with our 2019 Audi Q7 Prestige. It seems to be working very well. Plenty of power. Just went to Zion from Squaw Valley with no issues. We are new at towing a trailer. Anything we should know about towing with an Audi? We do have the built-in tow package. Our braking system was not working properly but seems to be OK now, or I'm just getting used to it.

Thanks, Art

Art, are you using a weight-distribution hitch or at least sway bars? Also, did you install the Audi recommended brake controller or using something else? Thanks

[Bambi75]

"The towing capacity for Cayennes, Touaregs. and Q7s is 7,700lbs.
In Europe, they do not allow WD hitches and their hitch rating is configured at 8% which equals 616lbs. In the US you can use a WD hitch and the hitch rating is 10% which is 770lbs." I asked my Porsche dealer (Porsche of Littleton) to get me a 770 lb sticker from Porsche, but the dealer insists that 616 lb is the limit since that's what is on all the stickers: "I just checked my personal 2006 cayenne S, a 9PA turbo, a hybrid and a few others and found that every one of them had a sticker stating 616 lbs. Are you reaching the limits with what you are hauling? Have you visited a trailer shop? They may be able to help you with a load distributing hitch. We do not advise on or install them, but it might be worth a visit to speak with someone more knowledgeable about that." Is there some Porsche part number or reference for the 770 lb sticker?

[thewarden]

The 616lb and 770lb rated hitches are the same hitches, just different stickers depending on the year of the vehicle. I ask my dealer for the 770lb sticker just to have it, and they even put it on, no charge. Sorry, I do not know the part #.

[Tom_T]

FYI for the Cayenne &/or Nest folks on here -

Here are a couple of PCA Panorama/Per-Four-mance Articles on towing with Cayenne TDI 958 + Nest Articles. I think that author Rob T. has been on this topic &/or one of the Curt Echo topics here on AirForums.

https://www.pca.org/news/the-road-un...3811x1281i1813

https://www.pca.org/news/texas-by-ai...diesel-part-ii

Since photos get readers' interest ....


> photo credit to the Author & posted on PCA website.

Non-members can read them online without logging in.

But if you're a Porsche owner, then the annual membership is worth it for the Panorama subscription alone (about the same as Excellence), plus all the other local,zone & national activities, local Region magazines, etc. & the 2nd spouse/buddy/kid/etc. associate membership is included in the price (unlike BMW-CCA which charges full ticket price each).



For author Rob T. -

If you're reading this - then note that your & all Cayennes' tongue wt. or HW max is actually 770 lbs here in the USA, & you can get the correct USA hitch ratings decal from the dealer which lists the proper USA specs for both undistributed ("Bearing") & WD trailer wts. of 7716 lbs.

Apparently in addition to not updating their USA owners manuals about WD towing with Cay-Mac/Q7-Q5-Q8/Treg-Atlas/etc. TVs - V/A/P also randomly installs the Euro decals &/or hitches with same at the factory, as well as sold by USA dealers (Canada too).

If you scroll back a few posts in here, another member described how they got the decal from their dealer.

And if you've not yet posted on here - go ahead & show off your CDI + Nest Rig some more in an introductory post on here now!


Cheers!
Tom
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[supziez]

What’s everybody think of an Airstream International 23FB with 2022 Audi SQ7 as tow vehicle, with Tuson electronic sway control + (some to be determined physical sway control arms)?

That’s what I’m lined up for ~January. Looking for any feedback.

EDIT:
So everybody doesn’t have to go searching for specs:
Audi SQ7:
- tow capacity 7700 lb
- tongue weight 770 lb
- Engine is biturbo V8 500hp, 568 torque
- Don’t know the door sticker max load since i dont have the car yet. Google says 1,654 lbs
2022 Airstream International:
- gvwr: 6000 lb
- base weight w/lp & batteries: 4806 lb
- hitch weight w/lp & batteries: 439 lb
- will be having 2 battleborn lifepo4 batteries installed as part of airstream power plus, which may affect tongue weight
Payload:
- estimated 300lb human, 50lb dog
- maybe 300 lb cargo (honestly I’m a newbie here — anybody got better estimates?)

[Imdakine1]

I’m a total newbie and we have a 2021 Audi Q8 for a 2021 Flying Cloud 23FB. Below is the AS specs:

Dry Weight
4,806 lbs.
Payload Capacity
1,194 lbs.
GVWR
6,000 lbs.
Hitch Weight
467 lbs.

Our setup is an EAZ Lift Elite 800 and a custom shank (hitch) from Andy Thompson at CanAm. He has been good to work with even though we are based in Canada.

My only question / concern would be related to the actual gas mileage for an SQ7 vs a Q7? We choose the Q8 as it’s me, my wife and our 3 year old daughter. We have a 2014 Q5 TDI with 70,000 miles which will likely need replacing in 4-5 years with the low amount of miles we drive and we love the Q5 TDI!

The Q8 gas mileage is already a shock to us compared the Q5 TDI. We didn’t even consider the SQ8 or RSQ8 with the ongoing concern of gas mileage while towing will get even worst.

So we settled with the Q8 and are happy with it so far! We got the all wheel steering and air suspension soon which I think are worth the extra $$.

Good luck and would love to know what you decide!

[Bier]

Originally Posted by supziez

...

- Don’t know the door sticker max load since i dont have the car yet. Google says 1,654 lbs
...

Just be prepared for this to be much lower. My 2021 SQ7, Prem Plus with exec, driver assist and tow package has a sticker payload of 1157lbs.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Bier

Just be prepared for this to be much lower. My 2021 SQ7, Prem Plus with exec, driver assist and tow package has a sticker payload of 1157lbs.

supziez, Imdakine1, Bier & others for Q7/Q8/SQ7/SQ8/RSQ8 Folks & other TVs -

Keep in mind that the TV Curb Wts are rated for ALL vehicles with full fuel & all drivetrain fluids, battery, options as equipped from the factory, etc. plus a 150 lb driver. Bier's lower net payload is due to those Prem Plus with Exec & other factory options.

So you only need to add for driver's wt over 150# & full wt. of passengers (dogs too) & luggage/cargo, plus for the trailer HW including the WD hitch, wet & loaded - for the total payload. Anything aftermarket &/or post delivery new from the factory must be added to your curb wt. & deducted from payload - like that 36 disc custom CD changer you got at the local audio store.

For the HW portion - you can load the trailer balanced to be more/less HW on the tongue/payload too, by using a Sherline or other scale for your hitch coupler to adjust your trailer packing/loading & tanks' levels.

If you have a heavy hitch (Hensley, ProPride, etc.), big LP tanks, battery packs, FB &/or stowage &/or Tanks up front - then you can load other heavy items toward the back to balance some of it out to be closer to the 8-10% with WD, including an appropriate bike rack &/or cargo rack on the back of the trailer (check what works for your particular trailer).

For example - we have the dinette/underseat stowage, water pump, 27 gal poly fresh water tank, battery/etc. at the front; plus two 30# LP tanks, Tekonsha RF on a heavy steel plate, hand-crank tongue jack & 160# Hensley Cub at the A-frame - all of which drives up our 1960 Avion T20's HW from the factory 285# HW without options/dry/empty - up to 542# as I've weighed it with my Sherline wet & loaded as optioned/added.

But if I have the bike rack with 2-3 bikes & 2" square hitch adapter on the rear 4" bumper, then it drops HW by their 100-200 lbs, or by 40-50 lbs. with the spare & spare mount on the rear bumper (a bit more direct effect with our single axle Avion, than would be with tandem axle trailers).

We also keep heavy galley gear & food low and amidships over the axle, and the rear bathroom's black tank is usually not very full, but the front fresh water usually is - since we're still okay on HW & payload limits. But others have drained any forward mounted tanks, reduced LP size &/or number of tanks, carry their generator aft inside or on a rear cargo rack outside - just be careful not to overload the rear frame, and not to over weight the rear end of the trailer to exacerbate sway issues.

It's a good idea to make a trip with your "Full Ready to Go Rig" to the CAT Scales or other local scales to weigh out the full rig GCVRW, the separate GTW & GVW, possibly separate TV GAW front & rear as hitched with WD (if they'll let you use it long enough), & Trailer's HW only as wet/loaded/options for travel/camping at both parts. That way you'll know how close, over or comfortably under you are for the TT's & TV's ratings.


Towing MPG is Different:

Also - keep in mind that your Towing MPG will be different than your unhitched mpg for city/hwy/avg in actual practice - and the smaller engines will generally get lower mpg towing than mid-range V8s towing.

Back when I started looking at TVs & did a survey of the Cayenne owners who tow - the 2003/04 to 2014 Cayenne S normally aspirated V8 turned out to be the "Towing MPG Sweet Spot" for gasoline powered Cayennes - aside from the 3.0L TDI - with similar results for the fewer Touareg & Q7 folks I know, plus those on this topic.

The Base Cayenne 3.6L VR6 & similar Treg/Q7 V6s & the Cay Turbo/TS V8 tended to get in the same 12-13 mpg, while the non-turbo V8 got 15-17 mpg while towing, and the 3.0L TDI diesels got 17-21 while lugging trailers - with similar results from similar powerplants in other models/makes while towing.

So now today - if you're towing 50% or more of the miles on your SQ7, SQ8, RSQ8, CayT/TS & new V8 GTS, & other Turbo V8 TVs - then you're probably no better nor worse mpg than with a V6. And perhaps the newer 2015> turbo V8s are more efficient that the older ones, so that may give them a slight edge over the newer turbo & supercharged V6s.

I don't know how the later 2015> batch of turbo & twin-turbo V6 CayS, GTS & eHybrid/Hybrid vehicles are doing for towing mpg - so maybe some of those owners will chime in. V8s the engine isn't working as hard when towing, & generally are not revving as high as V6s - so you can probably continue to expect somewhat better longevity & less repairs & maintenance, than with the gas or TDI V6 powerplants, and the TDIs are more expensive to maintain, than the gas & hybrid engines in any case.

And if you have a diesel 3.0 TDI V/A/P vehicle, then they won't be supported beyond the current settlement agreed 10-12 years total from new, and VW, Audi & Porsche can be expected to wash their hands of them thereafter, as they've done with all past vehicles in recent years. So enjoy them while you can now, up to about 2026-28 at the latest for the last of the TDIs in 2016 MY.

So maybe you new SQ7/SQ8/RSQ8 owners & the standard V6 Q7/Q8 owners can post comparative TOWING MPG on here to give my older comparative numbers, some more up to date real world varied terrain towing mpg readings.


Cheers!
Tom
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[supziez]

Tom T, Bier, Imdakine1, others. Thanks for the feedback. Fuel economy is fortunately not a major consideration for me, otherwise I’d be looking at an F150 hybrid. The SQ7 will be dual propose — 1. Tow vehicle 2. Fun drive around the area we are visiting.

I’m just hoping that from the towing perspective, I have covered all angles

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by supziez

Tom T, Bier, Imdakine1, others. Thanks for the feedback. Fuel economy is fortunately not a major consideration for me, otherwise I’d be looking at an F150 hybrid. The SQ7 will be dual propose — 1. Tow vehicle 2. Fun drive around the area we are visiting.

I’m just hoping that from the towing perspective, I have covered all angles

Supz' -

The towing mpg becomes a factor for longer range on towing trips' leg lengths, since not all gas stops on the road are "Trailer Friendly". It's a royal PITA to be on your last gas with only old school tight & tiny gas station layout stops, with miles-n-miles to the next town!

They're all always dual purpose TVs in that manner. And the F150 Hybrid will get about the same towing mpg as your SQ7 anyway. Any Hybrids only get an mpg advantage unhitched, and there are more "fun" & better sized hybrids in the Porsche Cayenne eHybrid or Lincoln Aviator Hybrid (although that still has FOMOCO's usual first 2-3 year teething & QC problems) - if you really wanted more fun factor along with the better unhitched mpg advantage.

In fact - the 2015> Cay eHybrid 3.0L V6SC or V6T also has better HP, TQ & performance numbers - than it's sister 2015> Cay S 3.6L or 2.9L V6TT upscale sub-model, and then the Cay Turbo S eHybrid has the 4.0L V8TT + EV power & performance well beyond either Porsche's Cay TT/TTS or Audi's Q7/Q8 S/RS gas only Turbos. So fun factor doesn't necessarily preclude Hybrid power as a "2nd choice".

If you've not towed before, then a lot of reading up on the skills & techniques at the various online & print trailer resources - e.g.: RV Lifestyle magazine (Canada where Andy T's "Hitch Hints" articles appear, Good Sam/Trailer Life, RV Life, etc. for safe trailering advice. They also suggest going out to a big empty parking lot with some cones to practice backing in, & other maneuvers. At some point in this COVID mess they'll probably also restart the trailer skill sessions that Good Sam & others sponsored around the country.

You probably should at least talk/email with Andy T at CanAm RV up in Ontario CAN about the set-up of your rig & hitch reccos etc. - and after they reopen the US/Can border, consider a run up there from NJ to have them fine tune your set-up, do any tow bar shortening/angling, hitch reinforcement (if needed) & directions on operation & maintenance. He's posted in this C/T/Q topic a lot, if you look back.

Most AS & other trailer/rv shops just want to sell trailers & stuff then be done, but Andy's the guru of small & mid-sized TV set-up & towing, known for spending time with customers & non-customers to help them with advice.

You should probably also read back in the recent posts a few pages in here about the Brake Controller options (in-dash vs. Tekonsha RF), and about WD/AS hitches & the advantages of some. I like the Hensley Cub (for trailers of GTWR up to 6000 lbs - like your 22FB) with its superior AS control/elimination, not needing to be removed from the trailer every stop, crank-up torsion bar adjustment jacks instead of hoisting up chains, lifetime warranty, & other things - even if a bit more cost than EAZ, Blue OX, etc. WD/AS units. Ask Andy T. about them - especially if you have age &/or physical problems with manhandling the other WD/AS hitch heads & levering-up the chain adjustments all the time.

BTW - SQ7 would be our choice for fun driving if we still needed a 3rd row - but Cayenne is for us for 5 place, or else the lower & leaner RS6 Avant or Panamera Tourismo wagons - if Porsche & Audi would bother to offer their factory towing options here in the USA on them (UK & EU has the options, but here it's only aftermarket hitches).

It's just too bad that the USA automakers & importers have abandoned wagons here. We'd really prefer lower CG tow vehicle with cargo capacity in wagon form - rather than taller & higher CG TVs in either F150/250, RAM 1500/2500, Chevy/GMC, etc. trucks or full & mid-size SUVs flavors.

And make sure to post pix of your rig on here when you get it!

Cheers!
Tom
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