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Old 01-26-2021, 12:42 AM   #1181
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Hello,

Thanks for the ongoing advice related to the brake controller. I’m still learning so my comments will continue to sound naive... At this long we don’t anticipate towing anything but the Airstream. We only have one vehicle that can tow the Q8. Our 2014 Q5 TDI doesn’t have a tow package and I believe the tow capacity is 4,400 and being new at towing we just don’t want to push it especially since we bought the Q8 to be our tow vehicle.

I normally would lean toward a wired brake controller since supposedly the Q8 is pre-wired for it.

Who would install wired brake controller? The Audi dealership (seem unnecessary... the AS dealer?

I know our dealer has recommended a blue tooth brake controller staying they have had issues with newer Q7, Q8, and Porsche Cayenne and that many have had to trade their Audi or Porsche in tow. —- a message that is not very reassuring to me!

I’ll review the thread again to make sure I fully understand what people believe are the positive and negatives of both...

Appreciate your insight! Learning curve is big but the forums helps a lot.
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Old 01-27-2021, 10:53 AM   #1182
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Pairing Tekonsha Prodigy RF solution

Try this if you can't get the Prodigy RF to pair with your european vehicle and trailer. This worked for me when using a neighbor's Chevy truck did not. I have a vintage trailer that does not have LED lights so I did not need an LED adapter. Here's the link to the original eTrailer discussion:

https://www.etrailer.com/question-77832.html

1. Put electrical tape over the pin in the 5 o'clock positon on the back of the trailer mounted Prodigy RF box before you plug in the trailer umbilical.

2. Now follow the pairing instructions

3. Once paired, remove the tape and plug the trailer back in.

4. Joy
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Old 01-28-2021, 11:33 AM   #1183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikextr View Post
Try this if you can't get the Prodigy RF to pair with your european vehicle and trailer. This worked for me when using a neighbor's Chevy truck did not. I have a vintage trailer that does not have LED lights so I did not need an LED adapter. Here's the link to the original eTrailer discussion:

https://www.etrailer.com/question-77832.html

1. Put electrical tape over the pin in the 5 o'clock positon on the back of the trailer mounted Prodigy RF box before you plug in the trailer umbilical.

2. Now follow the pairing instructions

3. Once paired, remove the tape and plug the trailer back in.

4. Joy
Thanx for this tip Mike.

I've also seen some other workarounds on the eTrailer & Tekonsha websites.

We too have a vintage 1960 Avion still with old school incandescent lights.

But the 7-pin adapter is not to correct for the trailer's lights LED or standard.

The adapter is to bypass the TV's LED/Light-out circuitry/programming, so the use of it would depend on your Cayenne or other TV.

As I've posted before on here, I've even had to use the adapter on the newer 2016> Ford F250 with limited success in getting it to run at least the trailer's brake lights.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 01-30-2021, 12:19 PM   #1184
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Tongue Weight Concerns - 2017 Cayenne

First, let me apologize for not buying an Airstream, but the towing knowledge for Cayennes in this forum looks second to none! I hope you will indulge my inquiry.

I'm looking to buy a new Passport SL 219BH. I have put down a refundable deposit on the trailer and would purchase upon delivery in April. Here are my specs in lbs. I think my "weakest link" may be tongue capacity. I've seen varying specs for the similar Porsche/VW/Audi Chassis ranging at least up to 770 for the same tongue design. I'm also looking at the Andersen hitch instead of the e2 as it appears to be about half the weight (~50 vs ~100 lbm). I plan on 2x20lbs LP tanks and 2 batteries. Family of 4 in the tow vehicle. I bought the TV this month specifically planning it to be a TV.



I suppose my biggest direct questions are: do I need hitch reinforcement? What other kinds of tongue weight management should I be planning (e.g. tongue scale?). I'm aware of the 10-15% tongue loading rule of thumb for sway stability. Besides TW, am I approaching other limits? I live in Western Washington State and will be going over Mountain passes.



Tow Vehicle per the manual, 2017 Porsche Cayenne Special Edition w/ Factory Hitch and Tow Package

Powertrain: 3.6L 300hp@6300 V6, 8-speed automatic, Gas

Curb weight: 4,497 - 5,280 (I have not actually weighed yet, these numbers are per the manual and the DIN 70020 standard)

Front axle max: 2,910

Rear axle max: 3,693 (when towing)

Max gross weight: 6,195

Max braked towing: 7,716

Max hitch (tongue) load: 616 (sticker says the same with or w/o WD)

Gross combined WR: 13,911



Travel Trailer - 219BH Specs on Keystonerv.com

Shipping Weight: 4,672

Carrying Capacity: 1,758

Hitch: 535

Length 25' 5"

Fresh Water: 43 gal



Finally, I've heard my TV may have some sway control via "brake pulsing." I presume this is side independent trailer braking. Are you aware of this being a stock capability?

I have also emailed Mr. Andy Thomas of Can Am and am eager for his response.

I'm extremely thankful for this group's consideration.
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Old 01-30-2021, 02:08 PM   #1185
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For American made travel trailers tongue weight must be 13-15% for the trailer to be inherently stable when there are no outside forces (wind, harsh cornering or braking, etc.) at speeds above 62 mph. Thus you can expect tongue weight to be 800-950 lb depending on how much gear and water you are carrying. The Cayenne and similar vehicles are at risk for oversteer and sway under certain conditions with this much tongue weight. The factory hitch does have a bit of flex with these excessive tongue weights so making it stiffer is advised.

The Porsche does have asymmetric braking built into the chassis program module to arrest sway if it occurs and it may be effective in most situations.

Be aware that loaded for camping this combination does increase risk of oversteer and sway. by pulling this trailer, you will be over the limits Porsche has determined are safe for this vehicles in most situations. The vehicle will perform very well but you as the driver will have to maintain awareness to prevent the trailer from getting outside the narrow window of stability. If you keep the trailer in alignment with the vehicle it will do very well, if you don't the trailer will overpower the vehicle and it will go out of control. This is particularly true on steep downgrades on approach to a sharp corner. Manufacturers recommend limits that prevent the trailer from dominating the situation regardless of alignment. You can further reduce risk of sway with a quality hitch but there is not much you can do to prevent oversteer except stiffen up the rear tires with 7 psi of additional pressure, run the fronts 2 psi low and run the trailer tires at no more than 15-20% over minimum load rating from the charts.
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Old 01-30-2021, 02:39 PM   #1186
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Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
For American made travel trailers tongue weight must be 13-15% for the trailer to be inherently stable when there are no outside forces (wind, harsh cornering or braking, etc.) at speeds above 62 mph.


I thought the recommended Tongue weight was 10 - 15% for American made travel trailers? Has that changed?
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Old 01-30-2021, 02:44 PM   #1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammonte View Post
I thought the recommended Tongue weight was 10 - 15% for American made travel trailers? Has that changed?
It is 10-15%, but those with larger trucks for two vehicles tend to shift that band up. Not everyone is towing with a heavy pickup.
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Old 01-30-2021, 02:47 PM   #1188
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10-15% for the full range of trailer types where additional loads are applied. Closer to 10% for Utility trailers where load can be clustered just forward of the axle, closer to 15% when load is broadly distributed. Custom trailers for boats and such not intended for additional cargo will have a tongue weight optimized for the particular use. Some will be as low as 5%.
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Old 01-30-2021, 03:07 PM   #1189
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10-15% per Airstream.

And SAE use 10% (no range, just 10%) for their test standard.
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Old 01-30-2021, 03:56 PM   #1190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ascendingnod View Post
I suppose my biggest direct questions are: do I need hitch reinforcement? What other kinds of tongue weight management should I be planning (e.g. tongue scale?). I'm aware of the 10-15% tongue loading rule of thumb for sway stability. Besides TW, am I approaching other limits? I live in Western Washington State and will be going over Mountain passes.
Check with Andy to be sure, but I think you lose several inches of ground clearance with the hitch reinforcent. Something to keep in mind if you tow off the beaten path. One of the reasons I freeball. I tow down some roads that would mangle a WD hitch.
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Old 01-30-2021, 04:32 PM   #1191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
10-15% per Airstream.

And SAE use 10% (no range, just 10%) for their test standard.
To complete this, the SAE tests encourage use of flatbed utility trailers which are optimized for stability at 10% tongue and result in a stable configuration with the maximum trailer weight.

Airstream and all other manufacturers repeat the industry guidance so if it ever comes up they are able to refer to the standard as an explanation for their rationale.


None of this changes the reality that US manufactured utility trailers are most stable at 10% and travel trailers are most stable at 15%.
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Old 01-30-2021, 06:24 PM   #1192
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
To complete this, the SAE tests encourage use of flatbed utility trailers which are optimized for stability at 10% tongue and result in a stable configuration with the maximum trailer weight.
That must have changed since my version of SAE J2809 was published several years ago. In that version, SAE required the use of box type cargo trailers, and specified the minimum trailer frontal area, with a maximum corner radius. Flat deck trailers were not permitted.

Could you post a reference to the new standard? Has this changed the ratings obtained under the new version of the standard vs the old standard?
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Old 01-30-2021, 08:09 PM   #1193
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Cargo Utility trailers are required for the performance tests to address impact of aerodynamic resistance. All the utility trailers flat or box have the same stability performance when head and crosswinds are not involved. The sway and oversteer test are done in calm conditions where frontal and side areas are not relevant.
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Old 01-31-2021, 12:45 PM   #1194
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Welcome Ascendingnod from another non-AS owner!

They advertised our Avions as "Better than an Airstream" - so don't worry about it from this group for your Keystone.

I have a good friend who lives in Bothell, small world!

See my comments in bold italic inserted into your message below >>

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Quote:
Originally Posted by ascendingnod View Post
First, let me apologize for not buying an Airstream, but the towing knowledge for Cayennes in this forum looks second to none! I hope you will indulge my inquiry.

I'm looking to buy a new Passport SL 219BH. I have put down a refundable deposit on the trailer and would purchase upon delivery in April. Here are my specs in lbs. I think my "weakest link" may be tongue capacity. I've seen varying specs for the similar Porsche/VW/Audi Chassis ranging at least up to 770 for the same tongue design. I'm also looking at the Andersen hitch instead of the e2 as it appears to be about half the weight (~50 vs ~100 lbm). I plan on 2x20lbs LP tanks and 2 batteries. Family of 4 in the tow vehicle. I bought the TV this month specifically planning it to be a TV.

The discussion explained why the 616 lbs is the Euro/UK/TUV rating, & 770 is the USA/SAE rating. So scroll back a few posts to the one where they said that they got the proper USA hitch sticker showing 770 lbs HW, and order one (PM them for how to do that) - or check with your local Porsche dealer up there to order one, & go to Sunset Porsche's Parts website (Portland) for best prices on parts.

Check with Andy T for the best hitch option(s) when he answers. I think he likes the EAZ, but you can also call to discuss with him, but it is international to Canada, so make sure your cell plan has it when you call him.

Also order a Sherline HW scale, then you can pack & distribute your load in the trailer to best effect for your actual net HW to stay within the 770# Cayenne limit - i.e.: load heavy items low & above or behind the axles, bikes & bike rack & spare at the back bumper, etc. - but stay within the 10-15% of Gross Trailer Wt. Rating (get the actual GTWR - their shipping wt. is just a BS number).



I suppose my biggest direct questions are: do I need hitch reinforcement? What other kinds of tongue weight management should I be planning (e.g. tongue scale?). I'm aware of the 10-15% tongue loading rule of thumb for sway stability. Besides TW, am I approaching other limits? I live in Western Washington State and will be going over Mountain passes.

If your HW is 600# or under & GTWR is 6000# or under, then you can also opt for a Hensley Cub for not much more than Anderson. Although Hensley & ProPride hitches are heavier at 160# Cub & 180#+/- for Hensley Arrow or ProPride - the 10-15% HW doesn't apply to them because it's only required to hold the trailer coupler on the ball on other hitches - whereas the Hen/PP physically lock the coupler/ball within their hitch head, and the trailer links to the TV with a solid bar that won't go anywhere at any weight.

However, you will want to adjust your trailer loading balance to keep the total HW under the Cayenne's 770# & for your Cay's useful load at both overall GVWR & rear axle WR.


Tow Vehicle per the manual, 2017 Porsche Cayenne Special Edition w/ Factory Hitch and Tow Package

Powertrain: 3.6L 300hp@6300 V6, 8-speed automatic, Gas

Curb weight: 4,497 - 5,280 (I have not actually weighed yet, these numbers are per the manual and the DIN 70020 standard)

Your door sticker should give the accurate curb wt. as equipped with options, and the higher end of the range would apply to the V8 with full options. You're probably in the high 4000s. - ditto for the actual wt.s for those below.

Front axle max: 2,910

Rear axle max: 3,693 (when towing)

Max gross weight: 6,195

Max braked towing: 7,716

Max hitch (tongue) load: 616 (sticker says the same with or w/o WD)

Get the correct 770# HW rating sticker, as noted above. Also use your Keystone's rear storage etc. areas to load bags, gear, kids' stuff, etc. & other cargo, plus the kids/adults bikes at a hitch mounted bike rack (within the trailer's limits/ratings (or bikes inside) & other trailer loading tricks to keep the 4 passengers etc. + HW & cargo inside the Cay within its specs, as noted above.

Gross combined WR: 13,911



Travel Trailer - 219BH Specs on Keystonerv.com

Shipping Weight: 4,672

You need the actual legal/Federal 'Gross Trailer Weight Rating" GTWR) & the actual Trailer Curb Wt. as equipped - the subtract for yourself what your true carrying capacity will be - from which you will lose some capacity by LP tanks, water/grey/black tanks & everything you pack, as noted above. This carrying capacity & shipping wts. is just marketing fluff!

Carrying Capacity: 1,758

Hitch: 535

Length 25' 5"

Fresh Water: 43 gal



Finally, I've heard my TV may have some sway control via "brake pulsing." I presume this is side independent trailer braking. Are you aware of this being a stock capability?

It is and was just recently discussed a few posts/pages back - read there.

I have also emailed Mr. Andy Thomas of Can Am and am eager for his response.

I'm extremely thankful for this group's consideration.
__________________
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Orange CA
1960 Avion T20, #2 made, Hensley Cub, TV tbd- looking for 08-14 Cayenne S
1988 VW Vanagon Westfalia CamperGL (Orig Owner) + 1970 Eriba Puck
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Old 01-31-2021, 12:52 PM   #1195
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Anybody can adjust their HW to 10-15% by how they load their trailer.

Also FYI All - The 10-15% HW doesn't apply to the Hensley & ProPride PPP hitches, because the 10-15% is only required to hold the trailer coupler on the ball with other hitches.

Whereas the Hensley/PP physically lock the coupler/ball within their hitch head & A-frame attachments assembly, and the trailer links to the TV with a solid bar/tube "Stinger" Tow Bar locked into the TV's receiver & hitch's receiver box - so that hitch won't go anywhere at any weight - it is a sold mechanical connection.

I agree with others that the minimum HW is 10% otherwise.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
For American made travel trailers tongue weight must be 13-15% for the trailer to be inherently stable when there are no outside forces (wind, harsh cornering or braking, etc.) at speeds above 62 mph. Thus you can expect tongue weight to be 800-950 lb depending on how much gear and water you are carrying. The Cayenne and similar vehicles are at risk for oversteer and sway under certain conditions with this much tongue weight. The factory hitch does have a bit of flex with these excessive tongue weights so making it stiffer is advised.

The Porsche does have asymmetric braking built into the chassis program module to arrest sway if it occurs and it may be effective in most situations.

Be aware that loaded for camping this combination does increase risk of oversteer and sway. by pulling this trailer, you will be over the limits Porsche has determined are safe for this vehicles in most situations. The vehicle will perform very well but you as the driver will have to maintain awareness to prevent the trailer from getting outside the narrow window of stability. If you keep the trailer in alignment with the vehicle it will do very well, if you don't the trailer will overpower the vehicle and it will go out of control. This is particularly true on steep downgrades on approach to a sharp corner. Manufacturers recommend limits that prevent the trailer from dominating the situation regardless of alignment. You can further reduce risk of sway with a quality hitch but there is not much you can do to prevent oversteer except stiffen up the rear tires with 7 psi of additional pressure, run the fronts 2 psi low and run the trailer tires at no more than 15-20% over minimum load rating from the charts.
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Old 01-31-2021, 11:11 PM   #1196
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Regardless of the hitch design, best practice is to load the trailer so it is inherently stable on a straight road with no external forces at normal travel speed. For travel trailers this would be 12% if you travel about 60 mph, 13% at about 62-65 and 15% over 65mph.

The Hensley design arrests sway only when the articulation angle is close to zero, so only on straight roads. On a modestly sharp corner the trapezoid angles become sufficiently shifted that the trailer can a will initiate yaw acceleration. In addition if the trailer is sufficiently unstable, tire slip can allow the trailer to generate sufficient yaw acceleration and sway. The hitch is good, but it can't work miracles so it is best not to force the hitch to constantly yoke the trailer. Better for the trailer to naturally track with the vehicle and rely on the hitch only for unusual conditions.
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Old 02-02-2021, 11:17 AM   #1197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Regardless of the hitch design, best practice is to load the trailer so it is inherently stable on a straight road with no external forces at normal travel speed. For travel trailers this would be 12% if you travel about 60 mph, 13% at about 62-65 and 15% over 65mph.

The Hensley design arrests sway only when the articulation angle is close to zero, so only on straight roads. On a modestly sharp corner the trapezoid angles become sufficiently shifted that the trailer can a will initiate yaw acceleration. In addition if the trailer is sufficiently unstable, tire slip can allow the trailer to generate sufficient yaw acceleration and sway. The hitch is good, but it can't work miracles so it is best not to force the hitch to constantly yoke the trailer. Better for the trailer to naturally track with the vehicle and rely on the hitch only for unusual conditions.
A good thoughtful answer Brian.

To be clear, I've only suggested in here to load the trailers in a balanced manner using a Sherline or other scale, such that there isn't excessive tongue weight, as well as heavy stuff low and near the axles - in order to avoid "a Lucy moment" (Lucille Ball's rocks & canned goods scenes in "The Long, Long Trailer" classic movie).

Likewise to be clear, the solid locked tow bar connecting trailer to TV of the Hensley & ProPride hitches, with the ball & coupler solidly locked into the head assembly & properly mounted & adjusted eliminates the need to hold the coupler on the ball with the 10-15% weights of other hitches - although the trailer should still be balanced fore-&-aft, street-&-curbside, weight-wise in order to prevent yaw, porpoising, etc.

And as always - safe driving & towing, proper tires, condition & inflation, etc. are the rule of the day for all towing.

Also, if I recall - the active sway correction angle for the Hensley/ProPride hitches' "trapezoid" that you mentioned is something like 30+ degrees, and then the TV induced turn override kicks in in order to make tighter turns (which I mentioned in a prior post a shot while ago).

So no - one should not be making tight turns at too high of a speed for conditions when towing with any hitch, except to the extent necessary & stable in an emergency maneuver.

In any case, I do believe that the Hensley/ProPride hitches do a far better job in stopping dangerous trailer sway, than does any other form of friction, cams, torsion, pneumatic (shocks), etc. methods of doing so.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 02-02-2021, 08:28 PM   #1198
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I thought some on this thread might like this video. Itís not an SUV itís a Dodge Caravan towing a 1993 30í Airstream. The first link is Ana who works in our sales department doing her first pass through the slalom. The second is me driving. The same combination.

https://youtu.be/CLD_V7F3JsY

https://youtu.be/5jrKXyVR044
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Old 03-02-2021, 05:02 AM   #1199
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Good Morning All,

Here is something I read this morning. I thought it might be helpful for this thread.

Steve

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Old 03-03-2021, 05:10 PM   #1200
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Thanks for the informative article. I was blown away to learn that Thomas Aquinas and John Duns Scotus were able to foresee the Cayenne's exceptional performance as a tow vehicle over 700 years ago! This confirms what I have thought all along. Magnificent!
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