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Old 01-14-2021, 07:30 AM   #1121
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2018 25' International
Slidell , Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjstang32 View Post
I have a 2016 Touareg TDI and am considering a 2021 23FB FC with an advertised HW of 467. My max is 616. I have two questions:

1. What would you expect actual HW to be assuming no modifications or extra cargo loaded in the bedroom?

2. What hitch would you recommend? I'm not interested in materially altering the TV and my owner's manual says NOT to use a WD hitch.

Thanks,
Kurt
Loaded for camping you can expect a tongue weight between 630 and 900 depending on how much and how you load the trailer. VW does not recommend WD when you're near max towing limit due to risk of sway and oversteer. I would add modest to light with good sway control. I would suggest moving 20-30% back to the front axle but no more than 50%. WD reduces net stress on the hitch and receiver. It is a misnomer that WD is harder on receivers unless you misuse them.

The Andersen has been recommended and the EAZ Lift or any of the copies would be excellent. It is particularly easy on the trailer, vehicle and hitch receiver. if you go with Andersen, check ball to coupling fit. Any vertical or horizontal play is not helpful as the Andersen is sensitive to it and in extreme cases, damage the latch lock tab, not to mention degrade performance of the hitch. I switched to Andersen a bit ago. I shimmed the coupler lock fork ramp and now have no play, it works very well.

Both of these hitches have excellent sway control even with less WD tension applied.

If you're careful about setting this up you can forego stiffening the receiver mount and have a great, competent and safe setup. Do add 5-7 psi more to the rear tires than guidance for a full load and reduce the front by 2 psi. The Touareg will do a nice job up to 23'. The trailer will tug at the vehicle some, but not too badly.
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Old 01-14-2021, 08:29 AM   #1122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Loaded for camping you can expect a tongue weight between 630 and 900 depending on how much and how you load the trailer. VW does not recommend WD when you're near max towing limit due to risk of sway and oversteer. I would add modest to light with good sway control. I would suggest moving 20-30% back to the front axle but no more than 50%. WD reduces net stress on the hitch and receiver. It is a misnomer that WD is harder on receivers unless you misuse them.

The Andersen has been recommended and the EAZ Lift or any of the copies would be excellent. It is particularly easy on the trailer, vehicle and hitch receiver. if you go with Andersen, check ball to coupling fit. Any vertical or horizontal play is not helpful as the Andersen is sensitive to it and in extreme cases, damage the latch lock tab, not to mention degrade performance of the hitch. I switched to Andersen a bit ago. I shimmed the coupler lock fork ramp and now have no play, it works very well.

Both of these hitches have excellent sway control even with less WD tension applied.

If you're careful about setting this up you can forego stiffening the receiver mount and have a great, competent and safe setup. Do add 5-7 psi more to the rear tires than guidance for a full load and reduce the front by 2 psi. The Touareg will do a nice job up to 23'. The trailer will tug at the vehicle some, but not too badly.
Hi Brian,
Overall, these are great suggestions, imho.
I have to question ‘oversteer’ though. I’m pretty sure my 2016 Cayenne S has sway control built into one of the factory module’s software (in the brake control module, I suspect). No documentation to support that.
It could just be my perspective, having flat towed behind an old VW bus. Ha!
Regards,
Kirk
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:57 AM   #1123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann83 View Post
Getting 19CB Caravel (empty weight 3600 lbs. max weight 5000 lbs) in May. Sway bar coming installed w Airstream.

Currently planning on towing w 2016 Toyota Highlander V6 (will tow 5000 lbs) w a brake controller to be installed. It also has Standard mode for shifting.

Would appreciate your input on whether the Toyota should fit the bill for uphills & steep declines.

We’re excited to hit the road out west!

Thank you!
All -

Just a note that the OP of this C/T/Q topic had long ago invited & okayed the other "non-big-truck" TVs on here for info etc. - including the other German, UK, Asian & USA etc. mid-sized TVs - as well as the ever expanding Porsche, VW & Audi SUV/CUV stables.

So she & others are in fact allowed to be part of this C/T/Q club.

.

Ann83 -

I think that the Highlanders can only tow the 5000 lbs "if properly equipped" with Toyota's optional towing package - so check that you have that.

You'll also need to check the max. hitch weight, front & rear axle weights, net payload weight, and combined vehicle weight to make sure that you're within the envelope on all.

You will need a good anti-sway hitch and it's weight to the calculations. So add that to your brake controller to do list.

Also, Tekonsha makes their Prodigy RF controller unit which mounts on the trailer, with a remote hand controller unit that plugs into the tow vehicle's 12 volt round receptacle (i.e.: the cigarette lighter or round 12v outlet), for about the same price as their under dash Prodigy, but you can switch tow vehicles with the RF unit on the trailer just by moving the plug-in controller to the new or alternate vehicle.

Having towed our vintage kin 1960 Avion T20 single axle (20'-6" long) - which is a bit lighter than your 19CB at only 3000-3500 wet & loaded - with several rented 2013 4.0L V6 & AT Nissan Pathfinders (still body-on-frame then) - they were slow-go on even moderate grades, and was constantly searching for gears on the flat at freeway speeds. Braking was okay, but required long braking distances to plan and start braking well ahead.

The Pathfinder's power & braking were okay for towing - but it was unstable for sway above 55-60 mph on the one trip we did without a weight distributing/anti-sway hitch (prior to delivery & installing our Hensley Cub hitch). A tandem or dual axle trailer would be more stable, but they are wider turning. So you'll definitely need a WD/AS hitch, and that Pathfinder was closer to the Toyota 4Runner - than their next SUV class down Highlander (although I like the Highlander otherwise over both of those).

I know your NC area well from when our daughter & family lived in Asheville and from many prior trips to Cherokee being a Cherokee family ourselves, and I think that you would be struggling a bit with a fully loaded 19CB in the Smokies & Foothills in that area - especially if you are at the Highlander's max with a fully loaded 19CB.

If you already own the Highlander and it's got the tow option (not just adding an aftermarket hitch), and if it is all within the Highlander's weight limits - then you could try it out with a proper WD/AS hitch and the Tekonsha RF brake controller as noted above.

But if you're looking for an SUV to tow with, then you may want to look around at a few other options with a bit more capability for towing in the Toyota stable &/or others. There are 4Runner, Land Cruiser & Sequoyah owners on this topic that you can look back in prior posts to contact, as well as at least one with just about every other TV option in the "smaller-than-big-truck" class of TVs.

If the existing Highlander works for you going slow up the grades, and down-gearing to 2nd or 3rd gear on the downgrades - then you may want to contact Andy T at CanAm in Ontario Canada (member & regular poster on here, last a few pages back) to have his hitch reinforcement done to your Highlander (he's given others the info to have it done locally - so PM him).

If not, then you can look to upgrading your Highlander as noted above.

Good Luck!
Tom
///////
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Old 01-14-2021, 12:00 PM   #1124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweendk View Post
Hi Brian,
Overall, these are great suggestions, imho.
I have to question ‘oversteer’ though. I’m pretty sure my 2016 Cayenne S has sway control built into one of the factory module’s software (in the brake control module, I suspect). No documentation to support that.
It could just be my perspective, having flat towed behind an old VW bus. Ha!
Regards,
Kirk
Yes, all of the C/T/Q trio-plus have built-in anti-sway and the tow mode is automatically engaged whenever a tow-bar (ball or stinger) is engaged into their factory receivers (either factory option or dealer added factory unit), but not with the aftermarket hitch receivers. It's an excellent AS system, with different tweaks by each Porsche, VW & Audi for each model stablemate (e.g.: Q5/Q7/Q8, Touareg/Tiguan/Atlas, Cayenne/Macan & Panamera in UK/Europe/RoW).

However, I'd still recco a good WD/AS hitch too.

I use the Hensley Cub to protect both TV & TT investments, as well as to make driving easier, even if that's a belt & suspenders approach.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:14 PM   #1125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweendk View Post
my 2016 Cayenne S has sway control built into one of the factory module’s software (in the brake control module, I suspect). No documentation to support that.
It could just be my perspective, having flat towed behind an old VW bus. Ha!
Regards,
Kirk
So Kirk -

How is your V6TT CayS towing that 25FC when you get out of the IL flatlands, and into mountainous terrain like the Rockies, Smokies, etc.?

I had been looking for the V8 2008-14 CayS for the optimal HP/TQ & mpg while towing, then Porsche did the switch to the V6TT in 2015> & I'm hearing both ways as to the power and revs required at speed, the revs can be wearing on longer trips.

What's been your experience?

Also FYI, the tow mode on the Cayennes etc. run the gambit of ECUs - for brakes, engine, trans/xfer-case/AWD, suspension/PASM/AS, etc., and the tow option must be programmed as active if you add the factory hitch later (they're pre-programmed at the factory for all Cayennes & C/T/Q/etc, and factory initiated when ordering the tow option/receiver "without ball").

And while I've not flat towed with a VW Bus - we do tow our vintage 1970 Eriba Puck behind our 1988 Westfalia!

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 01-15-2021, 06:08 AM   #1126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Merk View Post
I've had good experience using the Andersen hitch. You can opt out of using the weight distribution.

Just make sure the coupler on the 2021 trailer is compatible. Our 2007 is "not compatible." I haven't had any issues but do plan to replace the trailer coupler at some point.



Not really the correct thread for this question, but it seems as if you'll be within the rated capacities of the tow vehicle.

Going to bring it back on topic by telling you that you'd enjoy pulling that trailer a whole lot more with a Cayenne, Touareg, or Q7!
Thanks for the info. I've just begun researching Andersen and am intrigued by the weight savings of aluminum. With my light rig, I would think that would be a good choice.
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Old 01-15-2021, 06:11 AM   #1127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Loaded for camping you can expect a tongue weight between 630 and 900 depending on how much and how you load the trailer. VW does not recommend WD when you're near max towing limit due to risk of sway and oversteer. I would add modest to light with good sway control. I would suggest moving 20-30% back to the front axle but no more than 50%. WD reduces net stress on the hitch and receiver. It is a misnomer that WD is harder on receivers unless you misuse them.

The Andersen has been recommended and the EAZ Lift or any of the copies would be excellent. It is particularly easy on the trailer, vehicle and hitch receiver. if you go with Andersen, check ball to coupling fit. Any vertical or horizontal play is not helpful as the Andersen is sensitive to it and in extreme cases, damage the latch lock tab, not to mention degrade performance of the hitch. I switched to Andersen a bit ago. I shimmed the coupler lock fork ramp and now have no play, it works very well.

Both of these hitches have excellent sway control even with less WD tension applied.

If you're careful about setting this up you can forego stiffening the receiver mount and have a great, competent and safe setup. Do add 5-7 psi more to the rear tires than guidance for a full load and reduce the front by 2 psi. The Touareg will do a nice job up to 23'. The trailer will tug at the vehicle some, but not too badly.
Thank you for your excellent suggestions. While I've been towing for years, this will be my first foray into using an SUV (as well as towing an AS). My rule of thumb has always been to stay within 2/3 of max ratings. Nothing scientific to base that on, just my own opinion.
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Old 01-15-2021, 06:22 AM   #1128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
Yes, all of the C/T/Q trio-plus have built-in anti-sway and the tow mode is automatically engaged whenever a tow-bar (ball or stinger) is engaged into their factory receivers (either factory option or dealer added factory unit), but not with the aftermarket hitch receivers. It's an excellent AS system, with different tweaks by each Porsche, VW & Audi for each model stablemate (e.g.: Q5/Q7/Q8, Touareg/Tiguan/Atlas, Cayenne/Macan & Panamera in UK/Europe/RoW).

However, I'd still recco a good WD/AS hitch too.

I use the Hensley Cub to protect both TV & TT investments, as well as to make driving easier, even if that's a belt & suspenders approach.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
1. With respect to the trailer tow mode on these vehicles, is it engaged when a tow bar is engaged, or when the trailer electrical is engaged (assuming both receiver and 7-wire are factory, of course)?

2. I realize that you mentioned that each of these vehicles has different tweaks, but does anyone know generally what changes in tow mode? I'd assumed shift points for the trans and I'd heard that the power tailgate is disengaged. From your post it looks like there's some anti-sway as well. Anything else?

3. Is the Hensley cub considered a WD hitch?

Thanks,
Kurt
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Old 01-15-2021, 06:27 AM   #1129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Loaded for camping you can expect a tongue weight between 630 and 900 depending on how much and how you load the trailer. VW does not recommend WD when you're near max towing limit due to risk of sway and oversteer. I would add modest to light with good sway control. I would suggest moving 20-30% back to the front axle but no more than 50%. WD reduces net stress on the hitch and receiver. It is a misnomer that WD is harder on receivers unless you misuse them.

The Andersen has been recommended and the EAZ Lift or any of the copies would be excellent. It is particularly easy on the trailer, vehicle and hitch receiver. if you go with Andersen, check ball to coupling fit. Any vertical or horizontal play is not helpful as the Andersen is sensitive to it and in extreme cases, damage the latch lock tab, not to mention degrade performance of the hitch. I switched to Andersen a bit ago. I shimmed the coupler lock fork ramp and now have no play, it works very well.

Both of these hitches have excellent sway control even with less WD tension applied.

If you're careful about setting this up you can forego stiffening the receiver mount and have a great, competent and safe setup. Do add 5-7 psi more to the rear tires than guidance for a full load and reduce the front by 2 psi. The Touareg will do a nice job up to 23'. The trailer will tug at the vehicle some, but not too badly.
Brian,

What did you use to shim the lock for ramp?

Thanks,
Kurt
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Old 01-15-2021, 06:40 AM   #1130
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Originally Posted by Mr. Merk View Post
I've had good experience using the Andersen hitch. You can opt out of using the weight distribution.

Just make sure the coupler on the 2021 trailer is compatible. Our 2007 is "not compatible." I haven't had any issues but do plan to replace the trailer coupler at some point.



Not really the correct thread for this question, but it seems as if you'll be within the rated capacities of the tow vehicle.

Going to bring it back on topic by telling you that you'd enjoy pulling that trailer a whole lot more with a Cayenne, Touareg, or Q7!
One more question: In what way was your 2007 "not compatible"?

Thanks,
Kurt
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Old 01-15-2021, 06:56 AM   #1131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjstang32 View Post
One more question: In what way was your 2007 "not compatible"?

Thanks,
Kurt
See below

Quote:
NOTE: Currently the Atwood 88007, 88010, 88555 and 88600 couplers are not compatible with the Andersen WD Hitch (all other Atwood couplers are fine).
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Old 01-15-2021, 08:29 AM   #1132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjstang32 View Post
Thank you for your excellent suggestions. While I've been towing for years, this will be my first foray into using an SUV (as well as towing an AS). My rule of thumb has always been to stay within 2/3 of max ratings. Nothing scientific to base that on, just my own opinion.
If you stick with your 2/3 of max rule of thumb, then there really is no need for weight distribution or sway control. I've been "freeballing" for years with my Cayenne and 67 Overlander, but I'm well within your 2/3 rule. Porsche says not to use WD so I will follow their guidelines. I have never had a problem with sway so I've never considered adding any type of sway control. My Cayenne is so rock solid, that the semi drivers have white knuckles on the steering wheel when they pass me because the air blast redirected back at them

If other folks want to tow heavier trailers and use WD to achieve their goals, I'm all for that. Personally, I think a Cayenne could handle a 34 footer with ease if set up correctly.
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Old 01-15-2021, 10:07 AM   #1133
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Brake Controller (s) for GLE350 and new Basecamp20X

Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced brake controller for a new Basecamp 20X (my son's) that will work with his 2017 GLE350?

He would like to also, tow with his Jeep Grand Cherokee from time to time. Anyone have "Bluetooth" model they use in this capacity for 2 vehicles, or would it be better to just get to reasonably priced separate controller?

Thanks for the help.
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Old 01-15-2021, 11:50 AM   #1134
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced brake controller for a new Basecamp 20X (my son's) that will work with his 2017 GLE350?

He would like to also, tow with his Jeep Grand Cherokee from time to time. Anyone have "Bluetooth" model they use in this capacity for 2 vehicles, or would it be better to just get to reasonably priced separate controller?
We use the Tekonsha Prodigy for our "one trailer, multiple tow vehicles" solution. No wiring required. So easy.
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Old 01-15-2021, 02:49 PM   #1135
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The towing capacity for Cayennes, Touaregs. and Q7s is 7,700lbs.
In Europe, they do not allow WD hitches and their hitch rating is configured at 8% which equals 616lbs. In the US you can use a WD hitch and the hitch rating is 10% which is 770lbs. The main issue is payload. The OEM hitches are substantial, but if you wish to exceed the hitch weight, some suggest reinforcing the hitch. Main thing to look at is the payload and axle ratings. You can exceed the limits easily with anything larger than a 23' AS and a loaded trunk.

I towed for several years with a Touareg V8 and a V10 Diesel. As I increased in trailer sizes, had to eventually upgrade to trucks for increased payloads. I will not argue about handling, that all depends on the capabilities of the guy behind the wheel.
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Old 01-15-2021, 03:15 PM   #1136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Merk View Post
We use the Tekonsha Prodigy for our "one trailer, multiple tow vehicles" solution. No wiring required. So easy.
Thanks! So easy to install? How easy...do you think any AS dealer could do it? I looked at the spec, and could not tell how easy...appreciate any data you can share for the GLE350 if you have it? Thanks again.
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Old 01-15-2021, 06:07 PM   #1137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweendk View Post
Hi Brian,
Overall, these are great suggestions, imho.
I have to question ‘oversteer’ though. I’m pretty sure my 2016 Cayenne S has sway control built into one of the factory module’s software (in the brake control module, I suspect). No documentation to support that.
It could just be my perspective, having flat towed behind an old VW bus. Ha!
Regards,
Kirk
You're correct the chassis module has sway control (asymmetric braking) built into the programming and it can help with sway, particularly on straight roads, while cornering, it is less effective. Consider that the engineers are of course familiar with the vehicle's sway control programing but didn't raise the towing limits.

If performance tuned suspension and steering was a good quality to have for towing and hauling, then trucks would have performance tuning also. Unfortunately you can't have your cake and eat it too and you can't safely tow large loads with performance vehicles. They are susceptible to oversteer if you happen to let trailer yaw become excessive.
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Old 01-16-2021, 04:56 AM   #1138
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Originally Posted by cjstang32 View Post
Brian,

What did you use to shim the lock for ramp?

Thanks,
Kurt
I put some photos in a threat titled "Performance testing the Andersen hitch" or something to that effect. I used 3/16 flat stock between the fork and the ramp and bent it around the back of the ball socket so it stays in place. I also shimmed up the lock lever so notch in the fork handle is aligned with the lock tab. If everything is loose the ball can ride up and push the fork handle into the lock tab ask shear it off.

The Andersen shank and ball mount is quite a bit lighter than the others, but the biggest advantage is the horizontal tension is quite a bit more gentle because the vertical forces it generates are less vs. suspension travel distance.
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Old 01-16-2021, 05:11 AM   #1139
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Originally Posted by cjstang32 View Post
One more question: In what way was your 2007 "not compatible"?

Thanks,
Kurt

It's not compatible in the sense I described. The Marvel style Atwood 888xx series 2 5/16 ball couplers have excessive manufacturing tolerances between the ball and lock fork making some of them loose fitting. Mine had about .17 inches of total play when the ball was fully inserted. The excessive play along with the forward forces generated by the tension chains caused the ball to move back and forth and up and down which put force on the fork and allowed it to sheer off the lock tab. The solution is eliminate excess play (force * distance = energy). Most people won't want to mess with this so Andersen just says their hitch is incompatible with Atwood 88xxx hitches. I suspect the older Marvel couplers have the same problem but it is unknown. The recalled series of Demco couplers that replaced the discontinued Atwood couplers also had this problem. I don't know with certainty that the post recall Demcos don't have excessive play.
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Old 01-16-2021, 05:46 AM   #1140
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Originally Posted by mojo View Post
The towing capacity for Cayennes, Touaregs. and Q7s is 7,700lbs.
In Europe, they do not allow WD hitches and their hitch rating is configured at 8% which equals 616lbs. In the US you can use a WD hitch and the hitch rating is 10% which is 770lbs. The main issue is payload. The OEM hitches are substantial, but if you wish to exceed the hitch weight, some suggest reinforcing the hitch. Main thing to look at is the payload and axle ratings. You can exceed the limits easily with anything larger than a 23' AS and a loaded trunk.

I towed for several years with a Touareg V8 and a V10 Diesel. As I increased in trailer sizes, had to eventually upgrade to trucks for increased payloads. I will not argue about handling, that all depends on the capabilities of the guy behind the wheel.
I wondered how they arrived at the 616lb rating. Thanks.
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