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Old 01-11-2021, 04:47 PM   #1101
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I believe that something like that has already been done years ago with a Cayenne, & with a Touareg, without any viable challenge from the Big 3 trucks.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/pors...n-airbus-a380/



.



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Old 01-11-2021, 07:15 PM   #1102
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I'm fine with what you suggest Matt. I have no doubt that European SUV will out perform and out handle the truck though by most traditional performance measures. The vehicles don't loose their basic characteristics when you put a trailer on it so it stands to reason. The issues I have with overloaded vehicles and in particular, overloaded performance SUVs is that they are at risk for sway and oversteer. These are the only two tests I would request. They are easy to set up and could be done already but those who advocate for higher limits won't perform the tests. I think we can all figure out why that is.

I'm not a truck fan, I don't particularly enjoy driving my wife's truck. I do enjoy driving her European SUV though. I am a fan of any tow vehicle that is not pushed beyond reasonable measures of safety and performance. We use a truck because of all the gear we haul. We like bringing bikes and boats and all manner of other things.

Good luck getting any of the trailer and/or hitch dealers to accept your bake off!
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Old 01-11-2021, 07:49 PM   #1103
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Just take a look at CanAm's videos on their site. They show videos with a combination stability test that involves sharply pulling the steering wheel one way, then another, to intentionally create instability. They go to the point of getting one side of the trailer off the ground in one of the videos, with an extreme example. They also show what the limits are with pickups vs some Euro SUVs. This isn't new. It is well understood. And it doesn't cost anything to see them.

Brian calls them handling tests, not stability tests.
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Old 01-11-2021, 10:11 PM   #1104
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The SAE Sway test procedure is well documented and would be a good test of stability. I think jcl also understands why trailer dealers who set up overloaded combinations won't perform the SAE sway test.
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Old 01-12-2021, 10:30 AM   #1105
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BayouBiker,

I'd rather not spend a ton of time researching the SAE sway test procedure. Can you give a quick summary of what a "real life" scenario would be that reflect the sway test?

What I'm hearing is that maybe you think a C/Q/T handles better some or most of the time? But there is a (only one?) scenario where it falls short of larger trucks?

If that's the case, I'm wondering if, personally, I'd rather drive a tow vehicle that "handles" better 90% of the scenarios I care about (maybe braking, avoiding a deer running in front of me, swerving when someone starts to cut me off on the highway, etc) versus doing WORSE in each of those scenarios but being BETTER off in a stability scenario. But since I don't know what a stability scenario IS, it's hard to understand which I prefer. If it's only decreasing radius braking situations, well, I'll take better straight line braking and "slalom/avoidance" performance over that stability test. Especially since a "smaller" SUV is so much more pleasant to drive and unquestionably handles better in non-towing modes. Even though my SUV is a dedicated tow vehicle, I still drive it plenty unhooked after dropping the trailer at the camp spot.

Thanks BayouBiker for helping to edumacate me!

Matt

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The SAE Sway test procedure is well documented and would be a good test of stability. I think jcl also understands why trailer dealers who set up overloaded combinations won't perform the SAE sway test.
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Old 01-12-2021, 10:36 AM   #1106
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Holy crap, the most interesting thing about that tow-off between the Touareg and pickup isn't that the Touareg won (but I was VERY surprised) it's how absolutely AWFUL the rear suspension of that truck looked during the pull. Bouncing all over the place. Looked like it was gonna hop right out of the chassis. Can't imagine that lends itself to good handling on a curvey and bumpy road.

That said, I think the real debate going on here is whether or not the C/Q/T handles better in towing situations... not it's ability to "pull" well.

But thanks for that entertainment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
I believe that something like that has already been done years ago with a Cayenne, & with a Touareg, without any viable challenge from the Big 3 trucks.


Cheers!
Tom
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Old 01-12-2021, 10:44 AM   #1107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHapgood View Post
BayouBiker,

I'd rather not spend a ton of time researching the SAE sway test procedure. Can you give a quick summary of what a "real life" scenario would be that reflect the sway test?

What I'm hearing is that maybe you think a C/Q/T handles better some or most of the time? But there is a (only one?) scenario where it falls short of larger trucks?

If that's the case, I'm wondering if, personally, I'd rather drive a tow vehicle that "handles" better 90% of the scenarios I care about (maybe braking, avoiding a deer running in front of me, swerving when someone starts to cut me off on the highway, etc) versus doing WORSE in each of those scenarios but being BETTER off in a stability scenario. But since I don't know what a stability scenario IS, it's hard to understand which I prefer. If it's only decreasing radius braking situations, well, I'll take better straight line braking and "slalom/avoidance" performance over that stability test. Especially since a "smaller" SUV is so much more pleasant to drive and unquestionably handles better in non-towing modes. Even though my SUV is a dedicated tow vehicle, I still drive it plenty unhooked after dropping the trailer at the camp spot.

Thanks BayouBiker for helping to edumacate me!

Matt
How about towing a 28' AS (or larger) while traveling down a 7-8% grade (like in CO or MT mountains), with 20-40mph wind gusts, some rain, with semi's in some medium traffic while traveling speed limit of 50-65MPH with sudden lane changes in front of you? Sound interesting?? Real life happens.. sometimes it ain't just a flat road with some curves...

No disrespect intended, but when you have that much weight behind your TV, having a larger wheel base, a heavier TV with the larger brakes and added value of an engine brake also, just feels a bit safer. And, I do love driving our GLE; just not ready to risk towing our 28' AS with it. But, that's just me...
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Old 01-12-2021, 01:56 PM   #1108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
How about towing a 28' AS (or larger) while traveling down a 7-8% grade (like in CO or MT mountains), with 20-40mph wind gusts, some rain, with semi's in some medium traffic while traveling speed limit of 50-65MPH with sudden lane changes in front of you? Sound interesting?? Real life happens.. sometimes it ain't just a flat road with some curves...

No disrespect intended, but when you have that much weight behind your TV, having a larger wheel base, a heavier TV with the larger brakes and added value of an engine brake also, just feels a bit safer. And, I do love driving our GLE; just not ready to risk towing our 28' AS with it. But, that's just me...
Been there done that. No issues. I'm not sure what your worried about? If the TV is hooked up correctly you have nothing to fear except yourself. Stop making mountains out of molehills.
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Old 01-12-2021, 07:09 PM   #1109
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What about towing 20-30 years ago with 100 BHP vehicle, drum brakes all around, etc.?

Car manufacturers' marketing departments decided to convince people that you need a huge poorly handling vehicle to tow...

Fortunately, the rest of the world has different mindset and at least some of us can benefit.

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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
How about towing a 28' AS (or larger) while traveling down a 7-8% grade (like in CO or MT mountains), with 20-40mph wind gusts, some rain, with semi's in some medium traffic while traveling speed limit of 50-65MPH with sudden lane changes in front of you? Sound interesting?? Real life happens.. sometimes it ain't just a flat road with some curves...

No disrespect intended, but when you have that much weight behind your TV, having a larger wheel base, a heavier TV with the larger brakes and added value of an engine brake also, just feels a bit safer. And, I do love driving our GLE; just not ready to risk towing our 28' AS with it. But, that's just me...
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Old 01-12-2021, 07:42 PM   #1110
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Originally Posted by HappyHapgood View Post
Holy crap, the most interesting thing about that tow-off between the Touareg and pickup isn't that the Touareg won (but I was VERY surprised) it's how absolutely AWFUL the rear suspension of that truck looked during the pull. Bouncing all over the place. Looked like it was gonna hop right out of the chassis. Can't imagine that lends itself to good handling on a curvey and bumpy road.

That said, I think the real debate going on here is whether or not the C/Q/T handles better in towing situations... not it's ability to "pull" well.

But thanks for that entertainment!

Contrived test like that are entertaining to watch and illustrate the obvious that in your face trucks may look cool but they suck at performing even simple tasks. An apples to apples match up with a properly equipped truck and a European SUV will end much differently.
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Old 01-12-2021, 10:00 PM   #1111
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Originally Posted by HappyHapgood View Post
BayouBiker,

I'd rather not spend a ton of time researching the SAE sway test procedure. Can you give a quick summary of what a "real life" scenario would be that reflect the sway test?

What I'm hearing is that maybe you think a C/Q/T handles better some or most of the time? But there is a (only one?) scenario where it falls short of larger trucks?

If that's the case, I'm wondering if, personally, I'd rather drive a tow vehicle that "handles" better 90% of the scenarios I care about (maybe braking, avoiding a deer running in front of me, swerving when someone starts to cut me off on the highway, etc) versus doing WORSE in each of those scenarios but being BETTER off in a stability scenario. But since I don't know what a stability scenario IS, it's hard to understand which I prefer. If it's only decreasing radius braking situations, well, I'll take better straight line braking and "slalom/avoidance" performance over that stability test. Especially since a "smaller" SUV is so much more pleasant to drive and unquestionably handles better in non-towing modes. Even though my SUV is a dedicated tow vehicle, I still drive it plenty unhooked after dropping the trailer at the camp spot.

Thanks BayouBiker for helping to edumacate me!

Matt
The SAE sway test measures the vehicle's ability to damp induced sway at 62 mph. Sway is induced with an impulse steering response. Small vehicles relative to the trailer size will not have sufficient intertia to absorb and damp trailer sway once it gets started.

The SAE oversteer test is done with a content radius turn skidpad. Speed is increased to obtain up to .4 g lateral force. Understeer gradient is measured durning the test to ensure the combination remains in understeer.

There's no doubt a Cayenne will out perform a larger tow vehicle when not hitched to a trailer but I'm not sure what performance characteristics apply when towing.

Stopping distance when towing favors the Cayenne for smaller trailers but trucks for larger trailers.

Emergency maneuvers will also be a mixed bag. Fast modest quick turns will go the the Cayenne but serious hard turns, is where the Cayenne will have oversteer issues and lose control and that is the ultimate fail.

Most serious accidents not due to operator error are caused by sway or oversteer and most are due to overloading. It's not clear to me that quick and nimble is better than remaining in control, I'd think everyone would prefer to not have uncontrolled crashes.
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Old 01-12-2021, 11:56 PM   #1112
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Emergency maneuvers will also be a mixed bag. Fast modest quick turns will go the the Cayenne but serious hard turns, is where the Cayenne will have oversteer issues and lose control and that is the ultimate fail.

Most serious accidents not due to operator error are caused by sway or oversteer and most are due to overloading. It's not clear to me that quick and nimble is better than remaining in control, I'd think everyone would prefer to not have uncontrolled crashes.
I would prefer to avoid a crash, than to have either a controlled or uncontrolled crash.

There is active safety, and passive safety. An example of passive safety is when a situation occurs in front of the driver, they then drive into that obstruction, and the airbags deploy. Airbags don't help until you have already hit something.

Active safety, the ability to steer around a situation, means you don't end up testing the airbags. The best crash protection is avoidance. I'll take nimble over lumbering, any day. Test it on a skid pad to see what the combination is capable of. Most would be amazed. Performance driving courses taught similar approaches.

If we want to compare the two cases, a lighter and more maneuverable vehicle vs a heavier and less maneuverable vehicle, we need to not think just of an empty test track, but a highway with other vehicles, or worse, vulnerable road users, that one can crash in to.
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Old 01-13-2021, 07:40 AM   #1113
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It's clear to me having posted here for some time, many experienced drivers, jcl included prefer the crispness of performance SUVs to the relative clumsiness of other vehicles. They don't seem to mind the oversized trailers constant pulling and pushing and tugging at the the tow vehicle in a skirmish for dominance. That pulling and tugging never gets old or tiresome to them, they call it towing awareness. They put their trust in their own driving capability to avoid allowing the trailer to gain the upper hand against the vehicle and have the vehicle stop responding to the driver and go out of control. They are willing to drive a combination at risk for sway and oversteer if conditions present.

There are a lot of drivers like this and many dealers happy to help them set up overloaded systems to bandaid over the deficiencies and give the driver every opportunity to avoid getting the combination in a bad situation. If this describes you, then by all means get yourself a crisp comfortable vehicle that best meets your lifestyle. Don't let the fact that the primary purpose of a tow vehicle is to tow the trailer safely in all situations deter you. Subordinate that purpose for other factors. Then hit the road knowing that you as the driver will have to actively manage the trailer to keep the combination in control.
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:36 AM   #1114
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Once a good / informative thread is being trashed by armchair engineers. Unfortunately, there is a risk that it will be closed as any other thread, where the truck crowd is trying to convince others that there is only one way to tow - go big or go home.

Ignoring their posts would be probably the only way to avoid this fate.
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:49 AM   #1115
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I love your Profile Signature...at least it's "up front".
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It's a long long road and I'm too far away to worry about it.

Stay well...

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Old 01-13-2021, 10:38 AM   #1116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
It's clear to me having posted here for some time, many experienced drivers, jcl included prefer the crispness of performance SUVs to the relative clumsiness of other vehicles. They don't seem to mind the oversized trailers constant pulling and pushing and tugging at the the tow vehicle in a skirmish for dominance. That pulling and tugging never gets old or tiresome to them, they call it towing awareness. They put their trust in their own driving capability to avoid allowing the trailer to gain the upper hand against the vehicle and have the vehicle stop responding to the driver and go out of control. They are willing to drive a combination at risk for sway and oversteer if conditions present.

There are a lot of drivers like this and many dealers happy to help them set up overloaded systems to bandaid over the deficiencies and give the driver every opportunity to avoid getting the combination in a bad situation. If this describes you, then by all means get yourself a crisp comfortable vehicle that best meets your lifestyle. Don't let the fact that the primary purpose of a tow vehicle is to tow the trailer safely in all situations deter you. Subordinate that purpose for other factors. Then hit the road knowing that you as the driver will have to actively manage the trailer to keep the combination in control.
Drive a well dialed in combination and you will soon realize that there is no pulling or any of the apparent conditions that you list. In most cases I rarely notice the trailer other than in the city when stopping and starting. I highly doubt that any reasonable tow vehicle on the planet would exhibit any other characteristics during city driving. But I can bet you that these dialed in combinations will far exceed at highway speeds. I usually just have the cruise on and drive with one hand. Just like driving any other day without the rig. Don't make mountains out of molehills.
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Old 01-13-2021, 12:29 PM   #1117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHapgood View Post
Holy crap, the most interesting thing about that tow-off between the Touareg and pickup isn't that the Touareg won (but I was VERY surprised) it's how absolutely AWFUL the rear suspension of that truck looked during the pull. Bouncing all over the place. Looked like it was gonna hop right out of the chassis. Can't imagine that lends itself to good handling on a curvey and bumpy road.

That said, I think the real debate going on here is whether or not the C/Q/T handles better in towing situations... not it's ability to "pull" well.

But thanks for that entertainment!
Hap - doesn't that hoppy rear end answer your question?

Yes - it was entertainment meant to deescalate this current too hot debate.

What you ask about, has actually been done by Andy Thompson at CanAm several years ago - even if they may be a few years old now.

Andy has posted some of them in this long topic - as have my two items above.

Maybe Andy and you can decide which of his test videos and results fit the questions at hand, then post them here.

I respectfully suggest that posting & viewing some of those relevant towing slalom & other TV-TT tests on here would be more time and cost efficient, than your well intentioned offer.

However, I go back to my prior comment post 2 ago, that this topic was not started by the OP to debate trucks with that crowd, but rather to give those of us in the non-big truck crowd to discuss the use of mid-sized TVs.

Every few weeks the debate resurfaces with some truck-only crowd people jumping in to challenge the idea.

As somebody who has towed with both 1/2-3/4 ton Big 3 pick-ups, and with current era mid-sized SUVs - in real life emergency maneuvers - and in all cases the tall, high sprung, heavy and high center of gravity trucks were harder to handle, braked more poorly, had less traction and poor steering response, and have horrible visibility of the road - than did the smaller, lower CG, better braked, and better power-to-weight of TV.

And that was all with my relatively much lighter vintage 1960 Avion T20 of only about 3,500 lbs wet & loaded, and with my Hensley Cub PPP hitch!

In fact, the current crop of monstrous, tall & overly jacked-up, heavy and high CG trucks are far worse, than even the prior generations of those same trucks. And why the heck are they building trucks with 24"+ wheelwell clearance with only 8-12" of suspension travel just to make them look bigger for marketing reasons anyway!?

In fact, the 1967 Chevy C-20 "Camper Special" 327 c.i. 3/4 ton truck we had in our family, was about the same size as the current C/T/Q and other Euro, Asian, and Domestic "mid-sized" SUVs - which are far more safe & capable than was our `67 C20.

Another fact is that the current "mid-size" Chevy Colorado & GMC Canyon pickups which are rated up to 7,000 lbs "when properly equipped" - is the same size of their prior gen "full size" 1/2-3/4 ton siblings, and at the upper end of size for the Q7 & MBZ GLS Class SUVs the subject here, which some contend are somehow inferior.

And I do feel that everybody should be sticking within their TV's ratings and capabilities, to properly equip their TV, trailer and themselves as safe Trailerites.

So how about getting together with Andy T to put together a post with the range of tests that you and BayouBob are discussing - with both videos and the statistics for each?

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 01-13-2021, 01:34 PM   #1118
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Un-hijack the thread

I have a 2016 Touareg TDI and am considering a 2021 23FB FC with an advertised HW of 467. My max is 616. I have two questions:

1. What would you expect actual HW to be assuming no modifications or extra cargo loaded in the bedroom?

2. What hitch would you recommend? I'm not interested in materially altering the TV and my owner's manual says NOT to use a WD hitch.

Thanks,
Kurt
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:37 PM   #1119
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Towing 2021 Caravel w 2016 Toyota Highlander V6

Getting 19CB Caravel (empty weight 3600 lbs. max weight 5000 lbs) in May. Sway bar coming installed w Airstream.

Currently planning on towing w 2016 Toyota Highlander V6 (will tow 5000 lbs) w a brake controller to be installed. It also has Standard mode for shifting.

Would appreciate your input on whether the Toyota should fit the bill for uphills & steep declines.

We’re excited to hit the road out west!

Thank you!
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Old 01-14-2021, 07:10 AM   #1120
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Quote:
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I have a 2016 Touareg TDI and am considering a 2021 23FB FC with an advertised HW of 467. My max is 616. I have two questions:

2. What hitch would you recommend? I'm not interested in materially altering the TV and my owner's manual says NOT to use a WD hitch.
I've had good experience using the Andersen hitch. You can opt out of using the weight distribution.

Just make sure the coupler on the 2021 trailer is compatible. Our 2007 is "not compatible." I haven't had any issues but do plan to replace the trailer coupler at some point.

Quote:
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Currently planning on towing w 2016 Toyota Highlander V6 (will tow 5000 lbs) w a brake controller to be installed. It also has Standard mode for shifting.

Would appreciate your input on whether the Toyota should fit the bill for uphills & steep declines.
Not really the correct thread for this question, but it seems as if you'll be within the rated capacities of the tow vehicle.

Going to bring it back on topic by telling you that you'd enjoy pulling that trailer a whole lot more with a Cayenne, Touareg, or Q7!
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