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Old 01-03-2021, 07:05 AM   #1081
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
...Also bullet one and bullet 4 are contradictory to each other.
This is a perfect example of emotion impacting reason. Of all people, I understand the impact of emotion... believe me!
There are so many claims made about towing and towing systems that it boggles my mind. Iíve studied enough mathematics and physics to know that the subject is complex beyond the simple analogies my mind typically uses to relate.

It is the ďpot calling the kettle blackĒ in my view and it does nothing whatsoever to help in my understanding.
Sigh...
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Old 01-03-2021, 10:52 AM   #1082
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Throughout this informative thread, many of us have warned that towing vehicles that exceed the mfr's suggested tow limits or hitch weights, or modifications to the frame or suspension may void warranties.

Has this every happened to anyone? Please share your experience (not opinion or theory or hypothesis of what may happen).

Here is my experience:

I have had warranty service done on my 2015 Q5 TDI by at least five different Audi dealers around the country since we had our hitch installed and reinforced by CanAm. Not one has refused warranty service. This included:
  • Service done at SLC Audi dealer whose service manager is a contributor to this thread.
  • Bakersfield Audi dealer where I limped in with AS in tow and a broken high pressure fuel pump. Q5 was out of warranty but Audi covered all of the parts and labor.
  • Littleton CO Audi who did the dieselgate recall work
  • Discount Tire in Reno NV who warranty replaced all four of my Q5 tires when I came in with the AS in tow.
None of your service issues would be related to overloading the Q5 by towing beyond the max, so probably wouldn't be an issue. They also probably never looked at your CanAm hitch reinforcement, nor thought to check the GTW & HW weights of your rig.

However, if you had a rear suspension failure, brakes issues, blew the engine while towing - then you could get a different outcome than your experiences above.

You can also drive for 30 years without any accidents .... and then you have one! It doesn't mean that you won't - just that it hasn't happened yet, & same for warranty denials.

I do know of a couple of fellow SoCal PCA members whose Cayenne warranty coverage was denied for breakdowns while towing auto hauler trailers to Porsche club events being over the ratings.

I also got that warning from a Porsche dealer tech on here, from reps of 3 local P-dealers, and from PCNA.

So collect anecdotal stories if you wish - but we'll keep passing along the warning to those who may be at risk for such problems when trying to tow beyond the limits. If they choose to roll the dice - as you apparently are - then it's on them & you.

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 01-03-2021, 03:10 PM   #1083
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Of the thousands of vehicles we have setup for customers I have never had anyone turned down for warranty because of a hitch modification or towing.
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Old 01-03-2021, 03:54 PM   #1084
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Mr Biker here might be right look at the extreme instability of these three rigs as they pass a flat front diesel pusher at 75 MPH. Actually there is an unsubstantiated rumor that black tow vehicle was doing well north of that

https://youtu.be/wVu5aYWbPLU
Well there ya have it. A 3 minute video of Airstreams being towed without incident. I once drove 5 minutes without a seatbelt and lived to tell about it. I should have posted it on YouTube. The seatbelt laws probably would have been rescinded.
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Old 01-03-2021, 04:00 PM   #1085
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I can post hundreds of hours but I doubt anyone would watch it.
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Old 01-03-2021, 04:08 PM   #1086
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I can post hundreds of hours but I doubt anyone would watch it.
Iím sure I can find hundreds of hours of lots of things on YouTube being done wrong without incident. Your video really doesnít help prove anything.
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Old 01-03-2021, 04:15 PM   #1087
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There are far too many "arm chair experts" in this forum making comment without solid facts.

pls listen to real people that have real long term expertise vs,
many that just make comments that feel like "i think or "i feel" or "hearsay" or "i had this problem" is like extrapolating from one point on a graph

IMHO, trust those :
  • that are vendors who have been in business for along time
  • do not sell TV vehicles.
  • have 100-1000's of happy and returning customers
  • no vested interest in misleading people
  • have given solid concrete details, evidence and factual statements
Not accusing anyone of intentionally miss leading for financial gain but to think that an RV dealer would not benefit if potential customers could tow a trailer with their present vehicle just goes to show that your post is not very well thought through.
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Old 01-03-2021, 05:10 PM   #1088
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I must say I resent your comment. I turn down sales every week because I wonít allow a combination that isnít wise. We also donít allow a combination to leave without a proper hitch setup and we take the time to test drive every combination. Find another dealer that does that.
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Old 01-04-2021, 08:13 AM   #1089
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Originally Posted by waninae39 View Post
There are far too many "arm chair experts" in this forum making comment without solid facts.

pls listen to real people that have real long term expertise vs,
many that just make comments that feel like "i think or "i feel" or "hearsay" or "i had this problem" is like extrapolating from one point on a graph

IMHO, trust those :
  • that are vendors who have been in business for along time
  • do not sell TV vehicles.
  • have 100-1000's of happy and returning customers
  • no vested interest in misleading people
  • have given solid concrete details, evidence and factual statements
It's partially a matter of whether you trust the manufactures combined design and test team and their collective wisdom, along with the reality that they know the vehicle best or you don't.

The manufacturer sets limits so that if the driver, through fault or no, allows the combination to get into difficult situations, the vehicle remains in control, that is continues to respond to the driver and the computer responses and provides the means for the vehicle to bring the combination out of whatever difficulty it was in.

This means setting much lower trailer limits than what that vehicle can safely tow assuming the driver never lets the combination deviate from normal safe comfortable towing.

At the end of the day it's all about risk

So when someone asks can abc tow xyz, an accurate response to the question requires knowledge of the persons risk tolerance.

If you're willing to drive a combination that won't recover and goes out of control if you let the trailer wheels get about 6-10 inches out of track from the tow vehicle at speed, then you may be a good candidate for the school of overloaded towing combinations. You're willing to have an operating profile that does not include the full range of conditions you might experience while towing. When the combination is set up correctly, it can tow fantastic for normal circumstances especially when the vehicle drives and handles nice to begin with, but it will have narrow limits of stability. Dealers who encourage exceeding manufacturer limits cater to owners with this risk profile, but they generally will not discuss the risks. Instead they focus on how proper set up provides great towing and handling performance under calm conditions.

If you have a more typical risk profile and you prefer a combination with safe operating limits set for all expected towing including unforeseen situations, then the manufacturer limits are more appropriate. Set up correctly, you will have a combination with the vehicle in control and managing the trailer at all times, not the other way around and not with a delicate balance of trailer and tow vehicle skirmishing for dominance.

All banter aside, this is what it is all about.
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Old 01-04-2021, 08:54 AM   #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
It's partially a matter of whether you trust the manufactures combined design and test team and their collective wisdom, along with the reality that they know the vehicle best or you don't.

The manufacturer sets limits so that if the driver, through fault or no, allows the combination to get into difficult situations, the vehicle remains in control, that is continues to respond to the driver and the computer responses and provides the means for the vehicle to bring the combination out of whatever difficulty it was in.

This means setting much lower trailer limits than what that vehicle can safely tow assuming the driver never lets the combination deviate from normal safe comfortable towing.

At the end of the day it's all about risk

So when someone asks can abc tow xyz, an accurate response to the question requires knowledge of the persons risk tolerance.

If you're willing to drive a combination that won't recover and goes out of control if you let the trailer wheels get about 6-10 inches out of track from the tow vehicle at speed, then you may be a good candidate for the school of overloaded towing combinations. You're willing to have an operating profile that does not include the full range of conditions you might experience while towing. When the combination is set up correctly, it can tow fantastic for normal circumstances especially when the vehicle drives and handles nice to begin with, but it will have narrow limits of stability. Dealers who encourage exceeding manufacturer limits cater to owners with this risk profile, but they generally will not discuss the risks. Instead they focus on how proper set up provides great towing and handling performance under calm conditions.

If you have a more typical risk profile and you prefer a combination with safe operating limits set for all expected towing including unforeseen situations, then the manufacturer limits are more appropriate. Set up correctly, you will have a combination with the vehicle in control and managing the trailer at all times, not the other way around and not with a delicate balance of trailer and tow vehicle skirmishing for dominance.

All banter aside, this is what it is all about.
Word! Wonder if they require a PE to be involved and sign off on structural vehicle modifications in Canada?
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Old 01-09-2021, 04:57 AM   #1091
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Of course we donít.

A large percentage of engineering time is spent on trying to make things lighter or less expensive.
If you are not overly concerned about an extra $100.00 or 20 pounds or ease of installation you can build much stronger hitch relatively easily. It isnít rocket science.

Remember at one time all hitches were fabricated in a shop there were no prebuilt hitches. When the first bolt on hitches arrived we soon realized the inadequacy of most of them so we continued to fabricate or enhance hitches. We have been fabricating hitches for 51 years. If I had to guess like 30,000 of them. If we did not have that track record we would likely be afraid of it as well.

Part of the problem is the V5 SAE standard. The forward torque specification is completely inadequate. Today many of the manufacturers are building their receivers stronger than the standard. One of the few things I managed to accomplish in my time on 2807.
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Old 01-09-2021, 07:13 AM   #1092
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When vehicle makers weren't involved in specifying, fabricating and installing hitch receivers, it was impractical to match them to vehicle capability.

Now, except for the rare error, receivers are matched to vehicle capability. It is poor engineering practice to put an oversized and excessively strong subcomponent on a major system. It improperly allows the minor subcomponent to be misused and fail the system. This is why you find weak receivers on vehicles the manufacturer does not intend for heavy towing.
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Old 01-10-2021, 09:28 AM   #1093
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I must say I resent your comment. I turn down sales every week because I wonít allow a combination that isnít wise. We also donít allow a combination to leave without a proper hitch setup and we take the time to test drive every combination. Find another dealer that does that.
If you follow the post that I was replying to then it makes absolute sense. It was not aimed at you or meant to suggest you are doing something unethical. Iím sure you do not let rigs leave that you are not confident in. However to suggest that a dealer would not benefit from the ability of customers to tow with their present vehicle would be ridiculous.
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Old 01-10-2021, 12:50 PM   #1094
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However to suggest that a dealer would not benefit from the ability of customers to tow with their present vehicle would be ridiculous.
The ones who benefit from recommending trucks as the only suitable tow vehicles are the truck manufacturers and truck dealers. The RV dealers have far less stake in it. If you attack RV dealers without noting that obvious fact, your bias is showing.
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Old 01-10-2021, 05:35 PM   #1095
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Shiny16 seems to be happy with SUV, vans, sedans, coupes and pretty much anything else as a tow vehicle as long as the owners don't overload them. I also note all the truck manufacturers recommend and sell SUVs, vans, and any number vehicles as suitable for towing.
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Old 01-11-2021, 06:32 AM   #1096
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If you follow the post that I was replying to then it makes absolute sense. It was not aimed at you or meant to suggest you are doing something unethical. Iím sure you do not let rigs leave that you are not confident in. However to suggest that a dealer would not benefit from the ability of customers to tow with their present vehicle would be ridiculous.
Please don't spew when you have little knowledge of the subject.
20 years of GM Dealer experience leads me to a much different conclusion.
Sure...they might benefit, but to suggest they would sell a vehicle knowing it wasn't safe, hardly.

Wondering though...Why is the customer is at the dealer with his 'present' vehicle?🤔

Bob
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Old 01-11-2021, 08:26 AM   #1097
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Idk, Bob, a street licensed vehicle capable of 150+ mph, by some measures should be considered unsafe, and yet they are sold by all GM dealers. Likewise setting up and sending a towing combination out the door that is over manufacturers limits for sway and oversteer or other performance issue should also be considered unsafe by some measures. The degree of unsafeness of course depends very much on how it is actually used and under some circumstances the combination could be considered safe if you play the right mental gymnastics so it is a sliding scale, and the dealer and sales people can rationalize the situation, and assign responsibility for safety to the owner. I'd say Shiny need not have direct experience to logically work through this reality.
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Old 01-11-2021, 10:36 AM   #1098
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I also note all the truck manufacturers recommend and sell SUVs, vans, and any number vehicles as suitable for towing.
Yes, but... the ones that make big trucks (ie. Ford and GM, and to some extent Fiat/Chrysler/Dodge) don't make money on their sedans and small SUVs. Their profit is based on full size trucks. So they are most definitely motivated to steer clients AWAY from SUV's and into believing that full-size trucks are the solution. They don't compete with the German, and most asian, manufacturers in full size trucks.
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Old 01-11-2021, 11:01 AM   #1099
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You know folks .... this is supposed to be a topic where people can discuss the Porsche Cayenne (& Macan), VW Touareg (& Atlas etc.), Audi Q7 (&Q5, Q8 etc.) and the other mid-sized TVs out there.

It's really not meant to carry on a running OT debate like this. If you want to debate this side issue, I'd suggest that you start your own topic under the appropriate forum subject - TVs, or whatever.

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 01-11-2021, 11:05 AM   #1100
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Proposal for some good learning

I have an idea. Andy and BayouBiker may enjoy the banter (I do too, sometimes) regarding the tow ratings, marketing, etc., but I would also appreciate some real-world data. So I have an idea: What if we could get a couple of vehicles, a trailer or two, a testing site, and some data collection equipment. Then do some actual testing. Based on the 50+ pages of back-and-forth on this thread, I propose the following:

1. A full-size heavy duty truck of BayouBikers choosing. Newish and Stock, with a hitch and hookup setups of his choice.
2. An SUV of Andy's choice. Newish and Stock. I think the Cayenne/Q7/Toureg would be most appropriate. Hitch and set-up of his choice.
3. A trailer weighing in at
a. the C/Q/T max rating (7,700 lbs)
b. 10% over that weight, and at least as much over the manufacturers rated tongue weight rating too
c. the max rating of the HD pickup selected by BayouBiker.

Then let's run them through a serious of tests that can be chosen by BayouBiker and Andy. Because I am REALLY curious which vehicle will handle better through the series of tests at
* 7,700 lbs. Will the C/Q/T be better at it's max weight than the HD truck at a fraction of it's max towing weight? I dunno.
* 8,500 lbs. The C/Q/T will be exceeding it's ratings. Does that make it dangerous? We can see if dangerous means "yes, it sucks", or maybe "no, it handles poorly, but no worse than an HD pickup towing similar weight (Andy's contention)".
* 20,000 lbs or whatever the HD rating is. The C/Q/T can sit this one out and admit it's above it's safe range. But will the HD truck handle THAT weight as well as the C/Q/T at it's limit, or even about it's limit? If not, that's a statement about marketing for sure, and then we can admonish the HD commercial users for being unsafe when towing a track loader or mini-excavator or horse trailer or anything approaching that weight.

Stability, handling, braking, etc., would all be fair game. Top speed and stuff like that isn't really relevant, as it's not related to safety. Safe is safe, and there have been a lot of comments about safety on this thread with very little facts.

I'm willing to pony up some cabbage for this little escapade. Maybe some others are too? It could be used by Andy for marketing (if it goes his way) or become part of Internet Lore if it doesn't. I suggest that Andy should be on the hook for a portion of the expense if he's proven to be majorly wrong.

What would it cost? If Andy and BayouBiker bring the equipment (or some other volunteers) that would require finding a testing site and measuring equipment. I dunno... maybe $10k? I'm in for $5,000 of it as long as I get to share the licensing rights to any video and data with BayouBiker, Andy, and anyone else willing to pony up $1k or more.

Reasonable? Stupid? I think this could be a good summer event, and excuse to have some cocktails and good conversation and laughs.

Matt
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