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Old 08-11-2020, 08:49 PM   #961
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Which airstream? How far do you plan to tow it on the ball?

Your tongue weight could easily lower the rear of the car, at the hitch, 2-3 inches. Maybe more.

If you are only towing a couple of miles I wouldnít worry too much about getting it spot on. If you are towing 30 miles or more or at highway speeds.... hmmm. Iíd want an adjustable shank and WD for a tongue heavy trailer. And set it up at the dealer.


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Originally Posted by mbsprouse View Post
We pick up our 2010 Airstream in a couple of weeks, so I am trying to get as much of the tow vehicle tasks out of the way. I have been searching for what hitch height I need for my 2015 VW Touareg (factory towing package) to properly hitch to a 2010 AS.

I just need a simple ball and shank to get it home. The factory ball is a 2". I will have an anti sway installed later. I know the ball is a 2-5/16 inch. Does anyone know offhand what shank height I need to reach the 17.25 height for the Touareg? I looks like it could be a straight shank from the hitch receiver (no height adjustment), but I don't want to be off an inch.
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:50 AM   #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHapgood View Post
Which airstream? How far do you plan to tow it on the ball?



Your tongue weight could easily lower the rear of the car, at the hitch, 2-3 inches. Maybe more.



If you are only towing a couple of miles I wouldnít worry too much about getting it spot on. If you are towing 30 miles or more or at highway speeds.... hmmm. Iíd want an adjustable shank and WD for a tongue heavy trailer. And set it up at the dealer.


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Old 08-12-2020, 07:02 AM   #963
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Hitch question

The Airstream is a 2010 19 ft Victorinox. GVWR = 4500lb, 550 in tongue weight. I think I may just get an adjustable shank to account for the tongue weight and any height change that happens when I attach it.

I will be towing it (empty) about 250 miles home. Iím not crazy about the idea without additional measures on the hitch like an anti-sway. Once home, we will get it to a trailer shop and have an anti-sway/ WDH installed.
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:29 PM   #964
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Thatís not a huge trailer, and I like your plan of getting an adjustable shank. If you want to go cheap you could probably just get a shank with an inch or two of drop... you can flip the shank over and it becomes an inch of rise.

As for sway... just make sure you really do have 12% tongue weight. More would be better. If the trailer is really 4500lbs and you can get 600 to 650 in tongue weight that would be great and you probably wouldnít even need anti-sway. But it certainly doesnít hurt. And if your tongue weight is 600ish you may also want a weight distributing hitch to improve handling. But it likely isnít ďnecessaryĒ.

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Originally Posted by mbsprouse View Post
The Airstream is a 2010 19 ft Victorinox. GVWR = 4500lb, 550 in tongue weight. I think I may just get an adjustable shank to account for the tongue weight and any height change that happens when I attach it.

I will be towing it (empty) about 250 miles home. Iím not crazy about the idea without additional measures on the hitch like an anti-sway. Once home, we will get it to a trailer shop and have an anti-sway/ WDH installed.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:20 AM   #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbsprouse View Post
The Airstream is a 2010 19 ft Victorinox. GVWR = 4500lb, 550 in tongue weight. I think I may just get an adjustable shank to account for the tongue weight and any height change that happens when I attach it.

I will be towing it (empty) about 250 miles home. Iím not crazy about the idea without additional measures on the hitch like an anti-sway. Once home, we will get it to a trailer shop and have an anti-sway/ WDH installed.
If you decide to tow it without any anti-sway hitch measure you can expect the properly leveled and hitched trailer with 15% tongue weight to experience sway somewhere just above 70-75mph, and closer to 60-65 mph with 12% tongue weight so watch your speeds if you don't do anything to dampen yaw.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:45 AM   #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
If you decide to tow it without any anti-sway hitch measure you can expect the properly leveled and hitched trailer with 15% tongue weight to experience sway somewhere just above 70-75mph, and closer to 60-65 mph with 12% tongue weight so watch your speeds if you don't do anything to dampen yaw.
Mbsprouse - another true tale -

Our 1960 Avion T20 is 21'-6" overall bumper to coupler, 2,680# empty/dry/no-options per factory & probably 3,000# wet & loaded as equipped & restored, with about 380-400# HW without the 160# Hensley Cub hitch (weighed with at 542#) - so +/- 12-13% HW.

That puts our Avion lighter, but in the same size, single axle & about the same % HW as your Victorinox.

That said - when I brought it home from Albuquerque to SoCal with a F150 4WD Short Bed Extra Cab with their then new anti sway control built-in the truck about 800+ miles, it wasn't too bad as long as I stayed below 65.

That F150 in the pic below in the Gallup NM Walmart lot was pretty level with the Avion mostly empty/dry, even without WD (but the Avion needed 1-2" of lift on the towbar) -


However - then on our 1st trip SoCal to the Pismo Vintage Trailer Rally of +/- 450 miles each way with the same bare ball set-up - but towing with a 2013 Nissan Pathfinder 4.0L V6 with NO built-in anti-sway (last MY of the old school body-on-frame version - similar to the one in my prior post's pic - but by then I had the Hensley Cub), with the lighter Pathfinder a bit front-high without WD - and ...

it was an E-ticket White Knuckle Ride as soon as I got over 55-60 mph!

Needless to say - I bought & installed our Hensley Cub WD/AS hitch before the next trip towing with Pathfinders!

I knew we'd want it for our eventual Cayenne TV anyway, so no waste of time & money.

Your `15 Treg with the towing package should have the V/P/A built-in anti-sway so long as it's the factory hitch package & the ECUs properly programmed for towing - which is also opposite braking type of anti-sway as on that F150 - but the Treg is several feet shorter (+/- 16.5' L vs +/- 25' L F150), & in the same length, wheelbase & V6 power class as the Pathfinder.

So you should expect something at my Pathfinder experience or a little better due to your Treg's AS system, with your heavier trailer & with the Treg shorter than the F150. Also, your heavier 4500# AS with 450-500# +/- HW & no WD should probably lift your front end 1-2" +/-, which WILL affect & lessen your steering & braking effectiveness.

Ergo, for 250 miles to bring home your AS if you keep it to 55-60-ish on the flat you should be okay if you're cautious, start braking way in advance, no wild steering movements.

However, you don't say where the AS is located, & I'm guessing "down the mountain" to pick it up - but you're up in Asheville anyway (I know that area well because it's where our daughter/family & many of my Cherokee friends, kin, clan & family live/lived) - & I know that those are some treacherous, winding & steep mountain roads - and the less braking & steering control could be a problem on those steep &/or winding roads over 45-50 or less.

So in those areas, err on the minus 5-10 mph off of the posted speeds in the mountains - even "up on top".

Now, ASAP or long run - I'd recco getting a WD hitch in order to level it out - & once you pay for the WD - then you might as well get the WD + AS version for the far better ride & tow.

If your Victorinox max wt. is 6,000# or less (I assume the 4,500# wt. you noted is dry & empty) - then you can get the Hensley Cub like ours in the +/- $1,000 - $1,800 for new or Hensley refurb'ed (both include their lifetime warranty), if over 6000# then you'd have to move up to the Hensley Arrow or ProPride in the mid-$2,000 range. I've noted the advantages of our Cub in recent and earlier posts, so you can read more there.

Otherwise, Andy T at CanAm likes the Equalizer (he responded to your post above), & others like Blue Ox, etc. - all of which are good hitches that others like.

Be Safe & Go Slow!
Tom
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:13 AM   #967
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The Hesley Cub is a nice hitch for smaller trailers, I should talk it up more than I do.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:55 AM   #968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
The Hesley Cub is a nice hitch for smaller trailers, I should talk it up more than I do.
You're doing fine Brian. I just wanted to enhance your warnings to mbsprouse when I saw that he's up in the Smokey Mountains, & may have more towing issues that the rest of us "flat landers" without WD or WD/AS.

IMHO towing up there or any mountain on bare ball with a Treg/Cay/Q7 etc. would be a bit hairy without any WD.

And the Cub & Hensley/ProPride PPP & other top WD/AS hitches will only make the towing safer & more comfortable by either stopping the sway before it starts with the Hensley/ProPride PPP hitches, or helping to resist sway after it starts with the other friction, torsion or tension WD/AS hitches like Equalizer, Blue Ox, etc.

I don't know if many folks on here even know how the Hensley/ProPride hitches work for anti-sway - but their hitch head's geometry set-up keeps the trailer parallel with the TV if the trailer gets "pushed" by a crosswind, 18-wheeler, etc. so it can never get into sway-mode & then progress into a possible jack-knife wreck.

If folks are curious, then they should go to the Hensley website & watch their video on how it works.

https://hensleymfg.com/how-does-the-hensley-hitch-work/

Whereas , the in vehicle AS works with opposing braking on the opposite site TV wheels to resist sway after it starts, & the Equalizer, Blue Ox, etc. WD hitches with the AS option on likewise resist the sway after sway has started with either friction pads, torsion bars, tension devices, etc.

So it's a matter of totally preventing & never letting sway start - vs - resisting it after it's started to sway.

IMHO - with expensive TVs pulling high value trailers like Airstream & restored Vintage Kin etc. especially - it is well worth a few $100s for the Cub if under 6000# trailers, or $700-1000 more for the 10,000# Arrow or ProPride - not to mention the added safety for the TV occupants.

If one has seen a jack-knifed &/or rolled trailer or rig on the highway - you know what I mean about safety & worth the cost - aside from how easy it is to drive without AS or WD or WD/AS hitches.

I'm amazed that people who will lay out $50K 0 $100K for a new or used or restored Airstream etc., plus that much again for a TV - with a total rig investment of $100K - $200K plus - and then balk at a relatively measly $1300 - $2600+/- for a Hensley Cub, Arrow or Pro-Pride to completely protect that investment or expense!?
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Old 08-14-2020, 05:51 PM   #969
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I think most of the reluctance is due to the extra cost and the intimidating size combined with healthy skepticism of marketing gimmicks and the difficulty in understanding the physics that sets that design off from all others. It really is an engineering marvel and it is hard to overstate the difference it can make for both sway stability and resistance to oversteer when properly set up. I only recently investigated in detail the impact and realized how significant it can be in restoring cornering performance. Previously I had it spot on for sway control but was neglecting some of its more subtle impacts. Pick a random well designed vehicle, it will be stable for sway up to about 135-150 mph. Set up a capable tow vehicle and travel trailer it it will be about 72 mph. Put a Hensley type hitch on that and it goes up to about 110-125 put a Blue Ox like I use, and maybe 80-90. But add a Hensley type and set the WD correctly and you get maybe 20% improvement in cornering over a Blue Ox or Equalizer. Now if you putter down the road like I do with a oversized tow vehicle at 10-5 mph below limits depending on traffic, Okay maybe that peace of mind is overkill. But it you are near safe tow limits and like to push your luck or you like the relaxed comfort of knowing something has your back, the Hensley becomes invaluable.

Okay soap box mode off.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:06 PM   #970
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Tom and Brian - IMOP and IME I completely agree. As the proclaimed ďMDX Towing ExpertĒ (since it is not a true TV), I cannot rely on sheer mass of TV and need to rely on the physics of towing. Our Hensley Arrow and the expert modifications made by Andy Thompson and CanAm have made our 2011 MDX and 25í FB Safari an amazing rig. I do get a lot of questions at gas stations and campgrounds about our setup and that was not the intention, itís just how it worked out. That being said, I am now a firm believer in using an everyday driving vehicle to tow ours airstream, be it a BMW, Honda, Tesla, Audi, Porsche, etc. Thanks for your posts!

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Old 08-15-2020, 04:15 AM   #971
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I would not bother buying a weight carrying ball to bring the Airstream home.

For very little money you can get an Eaz-Lift Elite 800 pound weight distribution kit. Set the ball between 18.5 and 19.5Ē.
When you pick up all you have to do is drop the snap ups on the A frame take a couple of measurements and your safe to drive home. I would add a friction sway bar when you get home. Weight distribution is the most important part of the hitch system.
If you send me an email andy@canamrv.ca I can send you a couple of sheets on how to dial in the hitch.
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:46 PM   #972
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Touareg anti-sway hitch

Andrew T - that is exactly what I did. I ordered an Eaz-Lift Recurve R3 1200. Camping World recommended it to me but didnt have any in stock. Looks easy enough to install even when I pick it up with the right tools.

I really appreciate all the advice here so far. We are not taking any of this lightly and entering into the world of towing with great caution. Iím so glad I have this resource.

As for our location, we will be traveling back with the AS from the Raleigh area to Asheville. Most of it is interstate with only about 8 miles of a 2000 ft climb for me the piedmont to the mountains. After that, we will be making much shorter trips as we learn the ropes.

I do have one question (my wife brought it up after a long conversation about WDH and anti-sway). How is it that these hitch devices are so helpful and seem like necessary safety equipment, but dealers can sell an AS off the lot without them installed. More so, why arenít these WDHs a part of every trailer to begin with?
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Old 08-16-2020, 05:25 AM   #973
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First off, just a note that the recurve uses a unique non-linear sway damping mechanism that may or may not be completely compatible with the sway control programming in the vehicle chassis stability/traction controller. The result would be excessive response to a larger sway event (very rare, not likely to occur) making the response feel awkward, abrupt and possibly increasing the number of cycles before sway is damped. Eaz suggests turning off stability control if it overreacts, but my view is the programming is effective and a compatible hitch is a better option. Andy's suggestion was good. Consider returning the recurve. Of course, I may be mistaken and your model does not have vehicle sway control. Note that I have not personally experimented with the recurve and stability control so it is possible it works just fine with the programming on your particular vehicle.

To your questions. The sway and handing stability is a strongly dependent on the tow vehicle cornering capability, the tow vehicle wheelbase and hitch overhang, receiver strength and mostly the relative differences in inertial moments (mass, size and distribution). By far the strongest dependent is the speed the owner chooses to drive. If you choose a tow vehicle that is fully rated for the trailer, and you choose to drive always below 62 mph, you will not have stability issues and though the vehicle will perform better with hitch support, if the poorer performance does not bother you, you can forgo the improvements. If one drives at highway speeds, sway support is wise. If someone decides they know better than the vehicle manufacturer and wants to push or break the limits, strong sway control becomes mandatory, if they want to also stay safe. Since America mostly still views liberty as a virtue, we leave it up to the purchaser, and given all the factors, I don't think someone in the government can make better decisions than the purchaser.
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Old 08-16-2020, 05:34 AM   #974
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Andrew T - that is exactly what I did. I ordered an Eaz-Lift Recurve R3 1200. Camping World recommended it to me but didnt have any in stock. Looks easy enough to install even when I pick it up with the right tools.



I really appreciate all the advice here so far. We are not taking any of this lightly and entering into the world of towing with great caution. Iím so glad I have this resource.



As for our location, we will be traveling back with the AS from the Raleigh area to Asheville. Most of it is interstate with only about 8 miles of a 2000 ft climb for me the piedmont to the mountains. After that, we will be making much shorter trips as we learn the ropes.



I do have one question (my wife brought it up after a long conversation about WDH and anti-sway). How is it that these hitch devices are so helpful and seem like necessary safety equipment, but dealers can sell an AS off the lot without them installed. More so, why arenít these WDHs a part of every trailer to begin with?


Donít get the R Curve it is not a good design. It is too difficult to fine tune weight distribution and you want you friction control to be independent of weight transfer. The person you spoke with at CW likely never towed a trailer let alone properly setup one.
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Old 09-12-2020, 02:15 AM   #975
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Audi Q5 TDI

I’ve got a 2014 Audi Q5 TDI and was looking at AS 22 and 23 but realize the 4,400lbs towing capacity likely won’t be enough.

While I like the Audi Q7 I’m hoping to get the smallest SUV with good towing capacity and am now considering BMW X5 (5,952 lbs) or Mercedes Benz GLE or GLS that have 7,700lbs and the Land Rover Discovery 8,201lbs towing capacity.

I’d assume all should be able to do an AS 22 or 23?

My wife and I have a toddler and we’ve not spent much time looking at towing AS as we studied Airstream and other coaches but now realize no coaches seem to be suited for car seats which we will need to use for a while.

Any advice or opinions on a small yet high enough towing capacity?

To be honest I’m a wagon guy so would have loved the Volvo V90 Crosscountry, the Audi AllRoad A6 version coming back to US market or the Mercedes Benz E class wagons but appears wagons can’t tow that much!
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Old 09-12-2020, 07:29 AM   #976
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The Q5 as you noted is not up to the task to safely and competently tow the 23' American travel trailers.

Note though the European SUVs with a towing capacity of 7700 lb are using a European towing standard and the 7700 is an arbitrary weight assignment for licensing purposes. the limit is specific to European trailers specifically designed to be stable at lower highway speeds and with light tongue weights because the mass is concentrated near the trailer axles. Airstreams have their mass more or less evenly distributed so they require higher tongue weights, ideally near 15% for the trailer to remain inherently stable at US highway speeds, but at least 12%. For some years and some models of these European vehicles the manufacturer does provide guidance appropriate for US designed trailers and weights and when they do, they generally are in the 5,000-6,500 lb range. The Land Rovers are generally an exception as they are not designed as performance touring vehicles so they can go with higher weights with less difficulty.

Owners of these vehicles tend to have difficulty understanding these differences and insist they should be able to tow trailers as heavy or heavier than their European friends. They are generally persuaded to compensate for the differences by shoring up the hitches running excessively lite tongue weights and adding significant sway damping support via a well designed anti-sway hitch.

So for your situation, you will be looking at a trailer weight of around 6000 lb and a tongue of 650-900. Audi tends to often use an excessively weak receiver mount to dissuade their US customers from overloading so if to go to the Q7 an aftermarket or reinforced hitch is likely in your future. Many but not all of the X5s have a receiver mount marginally adequate without support as does most of the Porsche, some of the MBs and VWs. All the vehicles mentioned (Edit: ) except the Volvo, will do a nice job with a 23' trailer as long as you ensure the receiver mounts are strong and you get a very good to excellent anti-sway hitch. The lighter you go on the tongue, the more important sway support becomes. As you approach 900-1000 on tongue weight, you start having issues with vehicle passenger and cargo capacity.

Many people make these vehicle work for Airstreams, and when they are set up well they work very nicely, particularly for 19-25' trailers. The point is as you approach 25 or exceed it, the degree of finesse required to make it work increases.
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Old 09-12-2020, 11:25 AM   #977
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Here we ago again. Arm chair experts chiming in...

Imdakine1 (if you are not BayouBiker, who registers under different name to be able to share the wisdom), just do the proper research. Plenty of options to tow with 22-23' trailer and not to suffer (lack of) handling of pick up.

I was also a wagon guy in Europe. Had exclusively BMW wagons in the past, but lack of options in the US pushed me to SUV and actually I am happy with it now and not planning to go back to wagon.

Here is an example of capabilities of a sedan (somebody from Can Am is driving this, likely Andy Thomson) not a wagon, but do not think towing capabilities of A6, E class would be dramatically different.

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Old 09-12-2020, 11:55 AM   #978
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I don't recall recommending a pickup for Imdakine1's situation....

By the same token, anyone can hitch up a sedan or wagon to a 25 or 27 foot trailer and safely pull it if they are willing to drive slowly enough. The kind of safe stability I refer to is not something you can feel or perceive while driving under normal conditions. They are not something you can test driving through a simple slalom course. They are the critical points on the margins in a genuine emergency when you need your setup to remain in control even if you the driver overreacts or fails to adjust. bono, I get it that you are either unwilling or unable to understand this. I also get that some people are risk takers. They are willing to risk the rare possibility of an uncontrolled crash in favor of using their more refined touring daily driver knowing full well that they are pushing the limits and taking risks.

But it is irresponsible and immoral to suggest to people new to towing to follow in your footsteps and take these kinds of risks without fully disclosing them. Seriously what kind of person does such a thing?
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Old 09-12-2020, 12:38 PM   #979
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I suggested Imdakine1 doing a proper research? Do you have any problem with this? Does it mean that I am a monster?
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Old 09-12-2020, 02:38 PM   #980
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Hereís our combination, FWIW. The car is a 2008 V70. I am contemplating a V60 wagon or maybe an E-Class wagon next time.
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