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Old 07-22-2020, 10:08 AM   #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
He's a CT owner & says so in his FIRST sentence, so read them carefully:

"UPDATE:

As I've stated before, we've been using our 2008 Cayenne Turbo or my 2005 1/2 ton GMC to pull our campers."

Tom
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Please point out where gypsydad says he is a CT owner, I can not seem to find that.
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Old 07-22-2020, 01:35 PM   #922
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Originally Posted by Mr. Merk View Post

That's what I'm thinking. I've done the dragon on two separate occasions in my air-cooled 911. What a workout!
Yup! I'm hoping to take my `73 914-2.0 back there & run the Dragon with the East Coast 914ers group, whenever I can get the resto/repairs done & back on the road too! I've had it since Dec `75 as 2nd owner & put about 130K miles on it in a decade, many of which were on local SoCal twisties, as well as in the Sierras, Cascades, & Rockies (Southern) - & she handles very well being mid-engined.

Oddly enough - our `88 VW Westfalia handled it relatively well fully loaded for a 4 week trip & 2 kids, within it's high CG limits (downhill - given it's underpowered 4 squirrels). Until I'd tried it on some of our SoCal Mountain twisties before that, I wouldn't have thought that a tall, narrow track & high CG Vanagon loaded with the Full Camper option & gear would do well on 14" wheels - but it has an HD Springs/Shocks & Anti-Sway Bar set-up stock.

I'll bet your AC 911 was fun up in your neck of the Ozarks, Cookson Hills, etc. around NW-Ark & NE-Okla!

They had the annual Porsche Parade gathering back in your area a few years back too. The one for Palm Springs this past June was cancelled due to COVID of course - so we Cal West Coasters won't get one locally now for a decade or two, since the last one in the early 2000s or late 1990s. palm Springs had been my 914 Resto goal .... oh well!

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 07-22-2020, 02:01 PM   #923
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Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
I've had it since Dec `75 as 2nd owner & put about 130K miles on it in a decade, many of which were on local SoCal twisties, as well as in the Sierras, Cascades, & Rockies
That's amazing. We got our '88 6 years ago with just 25k on it, but I've since added 40k myself. Been out to LA for Luftgekuhlt the last two years, twice to the Smokies, Hill Country Rallye and just did a hard 3200 mile Memorial Day run out to the Rockies. Been through lots of oil and tires! Some of my favorite drives were in the hills and canyons around LA. Even did my best Chris Banning impression one night and ran Mulholland Drive in the dark.

Quote:
I'll bet your AC 911 was fun up in your neck of the Ozarks, Cookson Hills, etc. around NW-Ark & NE-Okla!
Yes, the car loves the Ozarks. We held a rallye here last fall and had guys come out from Colorado and South Texas.

Quote:
They had the annual Porsche Parade gathering back in your area a few years back too.
Yes, it was a scorcher that weekend so we passed. We're less into concourse events, focusing more on the drives.

Trying to tie this back on topic:

We struggle with trying to figure out the logistics of camping with the Airstream and driving the 911 at the same destination. I thought about a ramp truck to haul the 911 and pull the Airstream at the same time. Part of me wants to get an Avion truck camper to put on my 2500 and pull the 911 on an aluminum car trailer. Almost kicked around the idea of restoring my dad's Scamper and pull it behind the 911.

But really, the Cayenne is the perfect compromise. Pull the camper, unhook and then blast the hills in the Cayenne.


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Old 07-22-2020, 02:04 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by thewarden View Post
Please point out where gypsydad says he is a CT owner, I can not seem to find that.
I thought you were talking about MrMerk - not another older post further back.

However, if you're refering to Gypsydad's post #888 about using a WD hitch, then it was applicable to all & any TV-TT set=up - Cayenne or not - to which I would add Anti-Sway WD hitch is a good idea.

BTW - we don't yet own our own Cayenne either - as our search has been put off indefinitely due to COVID - but I have towed with them, have extensively researched them & which is best for our TV needs, & have towed with a wide variety of both trucks (1/2 & 3/4 ton) & quite a few mid & full sized SUVs similar to & larger than the C/T/Q cousins.

However, given that back in 2014 Porsche had stopped producing the CayS with the normally aspirated V8 that we want - we may need to rethink & try out towing with either the newer V6TT CayS or PHEV 3.0 V6T, but then I'll need find a dealer or seller willing to let me do a real world trial run pulling our 1960 Avion T20 on the SoCal mountains to make sure that they have the same umpf as the NA V8 CayS we'd tried before - as you might gather from some of my earlier recent posts here.

So I still don't think that someone has to be a C/T/Q owner to make a useful contribution here, but DO definitely agree that the snipers trying to shoot holes in those of us who prefer the C/T/Q & other similar TVs should stay silent on that BS.

Early on in this topic's now long run, some Cay owners got on the case & said similar non-owner comments about a guy posting some very helpful info on towing & care of Cayennes - who turned out to be a Porsche Tech at a P-dealer. Oops to them chastising him!

I'd been PMing him on the sidelines, & he gave me some excellent advice & direction on the ins-n-outs of Cayennes, maintenance, weak spots, etc. which was tremendously helpful in our now way too long on-n-off CayS search. He was not a C/T/Q owner, but had both driven & worked on many more than most any of us have.

The point is - it's not a good idea to put off someone offering useful input, regardless of whether or not they own your type of vehicle.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 07-22-2020, 02:31 PM   #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Merk View Post
That's amazing. We got our '88 6 years ago with just 25k on it, but I've since added 40k myself. Been out to LA for Luftgekuhlt the last two years, twice to the Smokies, Hill Country Rallye and just did a hard 3200 mile Memorial Day run out to the Rockies. Been through lots of oil and tires! Some of my favorite drives were in the hills and canyons around LA. Even did my best Chris Banning impression one night and ran Mulholland Drive in the dark.



Yes, the car loves the Ozarks. We held a rallye here last fall and had guys come out from Colorado and South Texas.



Yes, it was a scorcher that weekend so we passed. We're less into concourse events, focusing more on the drives.

Trying to tie this back on topic:

We struggle with trying to figure out the logistics of camping with the Airstream and driving the 911 at the same destination. I thought about a ramp truck to haul the 911 and pull the Airstream at the same time. Part of me wants to get an Avion truck camper to put on my 2500 and pull the 911 on an aluminum car trailer. Almost kicked around the idea of restoring my dad's Scamper and pull it behind the 911.

But really, the Cayenne is the perfect compromise. Pull the camper, unhook and then blast the hills in the Cayenne.


Too cool! Love the Mobil Pegasus on the AS!

I did hear about how hot the AR Parade was, & I include ALL events & runs in that moniker. Whenever COVID is done & PCA & Treffen etc. are back on, if you come out here, let me know, & there will also be several other fun P-car events going on Porsche-wise that week/weekends timeframe.

There is a 914 group from OK/AR/TX & beyond that used to do a weekend Talimina run, who were talking about restarting it, but now that will be post-COVID. I'll let you know if my Tulsa 914 buddy

Both Avion & Silverstreak had Silver Twinkie truck campers (& maybe others), & one of our Vintage Trailer Buddies out here in CA had a Silverstreak one for sale a couple of years ago (not sure if ever sold).

Fuel mileage & hearing damage towing your AS long distance with a 1-2 ton flat-bed mounting your 911 would be tough. There were some big vintage AS Motorhomes in the 70's - 80's which could toad flat or dolly (neither recommended IMHO) or flat trailer your 911. I don't know the tow ratings of the newer Sprinter based AS Class B - but it may be enough for the 911 on a flat or enclosed trailer. Peter Brock makes that Aerovault streamlined enclosed trailer that would look great behind any of those.

Too bad AS never made their toy hauler TT big enough for you to just put the 911 in it, but then you'd already have one if it could! LOL

Another option is a vintage or new Eriba Puck/etc. small trailer made to be VW Bug & Porsche towable, which is now our "other" aluminum skinned TT (FG top).

Our 1970 90% original Eriba Puck (660-1000 lbs max) with our original owner 1988 Westy:


More FYI:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=334146

Yours? -



However, the little Puck is not with all the conveniences & luxuries of the AS!

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Old 07-22-2020, 04:06 PM   #926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
I thought you were talking about MrMerk - not another older post further back.
Nope. Please read carefully before posting. With first hand knowledge as a Cayenne and heavy duty truck owner, MrMerk is a valued contributor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
, if you're refering to Gypsydad's post #888 about using a WD hitch, then it was applicable to all & any TV-TT set=up - Cayenne or not - to which I would add Anti-Sway WD hitch is a good idea.
Nope. Please read carefully before posting.
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:49 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by mikextr View Post
Nope. Please read carefully before posting. With first hand knowledge as a Cayenne and heavy duty truck owner, MrMerk is a valued contributor.


Nope. Please read carefully before posting.
Here's a better idea Mike - how about quoting who you're talking about from their post, so we all know.

I already went back in the posts & 888 was the only one I found, so maybe the admins removed his post - whatever it was.

PS - Lake Eufala is another run around I'd like to do with my 914 &/or Cay, whenever we can get back there again!

Tom
///////
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Old 07-23-2020, 03:40 PM   #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
I thought you were talking about MrMerk - not another older post further back.

However, if you're refering to Gypsydad's post #888 about using a WD hitch, then it was applicable to all & any TV-TT set=up - Cayenne or not - to which I would add Anti-Sway WD hitch is a good idea.

BTW - we don't yet own our own Cayenne either - as our search has been put off indefinitely due to COVID - but I have towed with them, have extensively researched them & which is best for our TV needs, & have towed with a wide variety of both trucks (1/2 & 3/4 ton) & quite a few mid & full sized SUVs similar to & larger than the C/T/Q cousins.

However, given that back in 2014 Porsche had stopped producing the CayS with the normally aspirated V8 that we want - we may need to rethink & try out towing with either the newer V6TT CayS or PHEV 3.0 V6T, but then I'll need find a dealer or seller willing to let me do a real world trial run pulling our 1960 Avion T20 on the SoCal mountains to make sure that they have the same umpf as the NA V8 CayS we'd tried before - as you might gather from some of my earlier recent posts here.

So I still don't think that someone has to be a C/T/Q owner to make a useful contribution here, but DO definitely agree that the snipers trying to shoot holes in those of us who prefer the C/T/Q & other similar TVs should stay silent on that BS.

Early on in this topic's now long run, some Cay owners got on the case & said similar non-owner comments about a guy posting some very helpful info on towing & care of Cayennes - who turned out to be a Porsche Tech at a P-dealer. Oops to them chastising him!

I'd been PMing him on the sidelines, & he gave me some excellent advice & direction on the ins-n-outs of Cayennes, maintenance, weak spots, etc. which was tremendously helpful in our now way too long on-n-off CayS search. He was not a C/T/Q owner, but had both driven & worked on many more than most any of us have.

The point is - it's not a good idea to put off someone offering useful input, regardless of whether or not they own your type of vehicle.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
Thanks Tom...correct that I do not currently own a CT, Audi, nor VW...but I have owned all 3 in the past; but never even considered them a TV. I also owned a new Pilot when I sold my Casita and purchased my first 2006 25' AS...thats when I sold the Pilot and got a proper sized TV...at the time; a 2009 Tahoe with tow package...(underpowered, but did the job)

Sorry some folks get out of sorts about sharing input/experience on this thread, didn't realize it was a restricted to owners of those TV's mentioned...I think of these threads as "helpful" in sharing/learning, as you pointed out.

As for modifying any TV to tow a larger AS (25+), I understand what/how this can be done by the "experts", like CanAm, and few others. But as another astute person pointed out here recently, likely not going to help if there is an accident and your insurance folks start asking questions... Lets hope that doesn't happen...but it surely could.

I posted a few times years back about my son rolling my Expedition SUV on way to a ski trip in Colorado, with several classmates inside. We were sued due to an injury of one of the kids. We intern sued Ford due to Firestone tires at the time, the insurance investigators for Ford wanted to know how many passengers, how much "weight/cargo" on board including the luggage pod on top...they went thru the numbers. in court due to an injury. It all worked out and Ford did settle, but imagine if they had found modifications to the vehicle and it was out of specs? Just saying...I always think of this when I read these modification posts...but that's just me. Not trying to offend the other readers of this site.
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Old 07-29-2020, 05:33 PM   #929
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New AS and will the Porsche pull this

New to the forum and this is where I found my 1st AS ( YES), 23ft International 2019, like new, drove this back from Santa Cruz CA to San Mateo this afternoon using my 20 yr old GM Denali, the 5.7 V8, has pulled my boat for the last many years. Driving back I did notice some effort on the part of the engine over the coastal hills, so the big question. I found a 2016 Porsche Canyenne Diesel, 35K mike in the Bay area, very rare. I was thinking of importing one from Florida, then one from the mid West as nothing was around. I have great faith that this will pull the 23, but I keep getting feedback from all around saying the Porsche is not the thing - get a new truck. That being said, I have read most of all the pages and the wife wants feedback that I am correct. Any feedback or help would be great.


Regards - Bruce
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Old 07-30-2020, 06:12 AM   #930
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I found my 1st AS ( YES), 23ft International 2019.........I have read most of all the pages and the wife wants feedback that I am correct. Any feedback or help would be great.
Bruce. I am jealous. I love the 23' layout. It will be PERFECT behind the Cayenne. My only issue pulling with the V8 Turbo is the cost of fuel. The TDI will get better mpg using cheaper (and easier to find) fuel. It'll have plenty of low end tq I'm jealous
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:32 AM   #931
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Tom,

I am the Audi Q8 driver who rented the 2010 Flying Cloud 20FB. We had a great trip and the Q8 performed great in towing the AS.

Of course, the confusion is all stemmed by the Owners Manual which explicitly states to not use a WDH, despite the hitch having a sticker listing a WDH tongue weight of 770lbs. Also, the mechanic at my dealer said that it wouldn't be a problem to tow the AS. However, when I tried to pin down Audi USA by asking for a technical/engineering explanation, they came back with a statement saying they don't advocate doing something against what's in the manual and ignored my request for details.

With 250 kW (335 bhp) of power and 500 Nm (369 lb-ft) of torque, the Q8 had no problems on the interstate or the twisty hilly roads of the Virginia mountains where we were camping.

I will note that we have springs vs. air suspension, so there was still some sag in the rear end, even with the WDH, but steering and braking all felt normal. Also, towing mode was automatically triggered when the electrical connection was made to the trailer. We installed the OEM brake controller (Curt product sold by Audi) and it worked just fine.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
Tell the guy with the 8 to look at the sticker on his hitch where either Oris or Westfalia or whichever OEM supplier to BMW that made the hitch will give BOTH with & without WD ratings.

In fact, WD is allowed on ALL of the Euro SUVs & many other vehicles, & they are designed for it - but the UK, European & a few other countries outlawed WD hitches back in the 1960s-70s in order to protect their local small lightweight trailer makers from the bigger USA makers' larger & heavier trailers using WD. Even Airstream makes/made smaller lighter trailers for the non-WD world markets in the Eurozone & UK.

So their TUV based tow ratings & approvals are for non-WD trailers as used in the Eurozone & UK (or other home country DOT equivalent). However, their USA & Canadian DOT ratings are based on WD or non.

Unfortunately the Euro car makers are not doing a good job of updating their owners' manuals for non-Euro/UK markets where WD is legal, & it happens with the Porsche, VW & Audi manuals too - despite the Tech Specs given to dealer techs & tags on the hitch receivers showing both tow ratings.

If you look back into this now very long topic, you will see that this issue has been discussed before a few times already, so do more research in here if you must.

Otherwise - protect yourself & your investment in the AS - & tell your potential renters about this fact of WD allowed in the USA/Canada/etc., & tell them to do some research into their SUVs, & to use your WD/Anti-sway hitch if they want to rent your AS - period.

As for the X8 - think about it - why would BMW allow WD on the X5 & X3, but not on the X8?

Of course, BMW, MBZ, VW/P/A, etc. should do a better job with their manuals & include a towing chapter for the USA/Canada/etc. markets with WD - & help the customers of their very expensive vehicles, as well as themselves to keep selling them to us here!

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:42 AM   #932
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I am very often towing my trailer from Bay Area to Santa Cruz or Half Moon Bay through the hills. Trailer 33', 7,000-7,200 lbs - BMW X5 diesel tows this effortlessly. PC with 23' Airstream would be easy peasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucedann View Post
New to the forum and this is where I found my 1st AS ( YES), 23ft International 2019, like new, drove this back from Santa Cruz CA to San Mateo this afternoon using my 20 yr old GM Denali, the 5.7 V8, has pulled my boat for the last many years. Driving back I did notice some effort on the part of the engine over the coastal hills, so the big question. I found a 2016 Porsche Canyenne Diesel, 35K mike in the Bay area, very rare. I was thinking of importing one from Florida, then one from the mid West as nothing was around. I have great faith that this will pull the 23, but I keep getting feedback from all around saying the Porsche is not the thing - get a new truck. That being said, I have read most of all the pages and the wife wants feedback that I am correct. Any feedback or help would be great.


Regards - Bruce
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Old 07-30-2020, 01:06 PM   #933
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Your know you just opened up another thread to subjective comments from the "experts" here. Good luck...will be interesting to see the "other" replies coming in now.
That kind of post is just mean spirited and condescending to other contributors. You are in essence "poisoning the well" in an attempt to discredit other posters who may have valuable input on the subject. In other words, s@%! stirring and not helpful.
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Old 07-31-2020, 11:37 AM   #934
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That kind of post is just mean spirited and condescending to other contributors. You are in essence "poisoning the well" in an attempt to discredit other posters who may have valuable input on the subject. In other words, s@%! stirring and not helpful.
Did you even read the entire post? Hopefully, some may find it helpful! (my intent.) I am not trying to offend; just sharing my experience and opinions...not sure how you got "mean spirited" or "condescending", or "poisoning the well" out of my post, when I am just adding a little subtle humor, as seen in many posts here? Think my experience owning 4 different AS's and 5 different TV's may provide some value to some readers on the Forum...sorry it's not of interest to you.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:59 PM   #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egp View Post
Tom,

I am the Audi Q8 driver who rented the 2010 Flying Cloud 20FB. We had a great trip and the Q8 performed great in towing the AS.

Of course, the confusion is all stemmed by the Owners Manual which explicitly states to not use a WDH, despite the hitch having a sticker listing a WDH tongue weight of 770lbs. Also, the mechanic at my dealer said that it wouldn't be a problem to tow the AS. However, when I tried to pin down Audi USA by asking for a technical/engineering explanation, they came back with a statement saying they don't advocate doing something against what's in the manual and ignored my request for details.

With 250 kW (335 bhp) of power and 500 Nm (369 lb-ft) of torque, the Q8 had no problems on the interstate or the twisty hilly roads of the Virginia mountains where we were camping.

I will note that we have springs vs. air suspension, so there was still some sag in the rear end, even with the WDH, but steering and braking all felt normal. Also, towing mode was automatically triggered when the electrical connection was made to the trailer. We installed the OEM brake controller (Curt product sold by Audi) and it worked just fine.



Nice looking rig egp! I like the Q8's styling - except for a too big grill.

Which engine do you have in it, & what are its HP & Torque specs?

While I've wanted the CayS V8 (non-turbo) for the optimal towing HP & TQ - the newest P/V/A V6 T & TT motors are putting out almost as much HP & TQ as did the first 955 CayS 4.5L V8 engines. Feedback with others now towing with the latter seem to hold that up, & even for the PHEV Cayenne.

So when things get back from CV-19 shutdowns & we can actually use a TV & Avion, then I might try to "rent" each of a FS 2017 -20> used base Cay (2019-20> 3.0L Turbo), V6 TT CayS & CayPHEV for weekend runs with the Avion in tow to see how well they pull in our CA mountains. The PHEV would make sense going forward for us in the non-TV role, since most stuff here for us is within 2-5 miles, but the TV role is still it's primary role. For now we're driving less than 50 miles a month, so adding a new car makes no sense.

I know your local VA mountains from driving them (not towing) both over the years, and recently when our daughter, son-in-law & grandson were in Charlottesville up the road from you (now they're in the lowlands of Williamsburg). Thanx for the input, and I still want to try towing on our steeper & longer grades here in CA before committing to a V6 T or TT or PHEV.


Re WDH hitches:

FYI the Cayenne "yes or no WDH" discussion earlier in the topic a couple-a-few of years back could be your story with Porsche substituted for Audi. I think that the mechanic/Audi-Tech that you talked with probably has the correct answer. In the earlier Porsche case, the P-Tech said that the Porsche Service/Technical Manual had the WDH Spec in it, & I think that the page was posted in this topic as well.

If you're still concerned about your Q8 Owners Manual, then you might want to ask the Mechanic with whom you spoke to look it up in the Audi equivalent, & send you a pic of the page(s).

As for your steel springs vs. AS - the main concern with AS for folks like me who tend to keep & maintain vehicles, is that the parts will wear out & after 10-15+/- years the parts will go out of stock (NLA). I already have 3 now Classic vehicles in that are in the "NLA Zone" - & don't want a TV with AS in that zone, although it will still be an issue for other parts. Also, many of the indie P-Techs I know say that the AS gets to be a problem getting & keeping dialed in properly when it gets older & more miles for both the Cayenne & Panamera (they're talking set-up, not the dial/switch on the center console).

Also on that - your rear sag isn't due to Steel vs. AS - but rather that you just need another link or half-link of chain adjustment on your WDH. There's a post earlier in this topic on how to adjust 1/2 links, but I don't know that trick because we have the Hensley Cub AS/WDH with the adjustment jacks - so I just give it another full or partial turn until all is level, which I've done with other mid-sized SUVs that we'd rented while searching for our own CayS.

Our Avion T20 is about the same overall & body length as your AS 20FB, but they were built much lighter with marine plywood/etc. lightweight materials back pre 1980s for AS, Avion, Silverstreak, etc. - so our T20 is only about 3,500+/- lbs wet & loaded - whereas your AS 20FB is north of 6K lbs & more to level out with your WDH. Unfortunately that means that you can't use the much less expensive Hensley Cub good up to 6K lbs trailers (+/- $10-18K, less refurbished by Hensley), & would need to go to the full Hensley or Pro-Pride WDH if you ever wanted to upgrade to that type of PPP hitch - all of which stay on the A-frame so no handling of greasy bars/head/etc. when parked/camping, available with the wind-up jacks, tighter turning circle for the rig, lifetime warranty, 1 included stinger/tow-bar, and zero sway, among other advantages for the extra money.

Here are pix of both rented mid-sized SUV & 3/4 ton Pick-up with the Hensley Cub adjusted accordingly for each to be level FYI - so you can probably get your Q8 dialed in to the correct link/half-link position too.





And pix of the Cub & Tekonsha RF on the Avion T20's A-frame - note that one shows the A-frame down & clearing, and the Rear Hatch on the Pathfinder & other SUVs also cleared the tongue jack. FYI - our HW is 542 lbs per Sureline scale wet & full tanks - including 160# Cub, 2x 30# LP, front fresh tank 27 gals H20 (225#), & +/-25# for Mounting Plate & Tekonsha RF Brake Controller (factory is listed as HW 285# probably empty/dry + 265# + 225# as noted). The factory weights for our 1960 Avion was 2,680# TW & 285# HW - probably with no options, empty or no tanks for LP/H2O/Grey/Black - for comparison to your AS's specs.





While the Hensley/PP hitches aren't required for ours nor AS/kin - & our Area 63 AS Resto expert advised the Equalizer for us, as does Andy T. at CanAm - I do Like the secure no sway driving & ease of use of our Cub. So I'm not trying to sell anyone on them, just putting out the option, & they may be making deals on Hensley &/or PP now during the CV-19 slowdown.

Hope this is helpful for you &/or others.

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Tom T
Orange CA
1960 Avion T20, #2 made, Hensley Cub, TV tbd- looking for 08-22 Cayenne S, EH, etc
1988 VW Vanagon Westfalia CamperGL (Orig Owner) + 1970 Eriba Puck
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:02 PM   #936
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Factory vs Aftermarket Tow Hitches

Factory & Aftermarket for Cayenne + Audi/VW & other Makes as applicable -

Recently someone posted that they'd added a non-Porsche aftermarket Hitch on their Cayenne, and their indie P-mechanic stated that the factory hitches did not have legs which inserted into the frame rails - as I'd stated in my reply to that owner.

Apparently the latest 2019-20> model does not have those legs on their newest model factory hitches as shown in the Porsche Parts Diagram below -


.

However - the factory hitches for the 955, 957 & 958 models did in fact have the frame rail extensions for extra strength, and were NOT just bolt on items - although Curt etc. aftermarket hitches for that era 2003-18 were just bolt-on, and those would lack the extra strength and WDH transfer into the unibody frame rails - as shown in the Porsche Parts Diagram below -




.

I've also seen the Audi Q7 & VW Touareg factory hitch diagrams for that era, and they also have the frame rail extensions, because all 3 were based on the same chassis & unibody. I don't know about the newer Atlas, Q7/Q8 hitches, but they may have followed suit with the latest 2019-20> Cayennes. I think that others have posted the parts diagram(s) for the Q7 &/or Touareg earlier in this topic's thread.

So the factory hitches later installed on a non-equipped Cayenne-Macan-Panamera/Q5-7-8/Touareg-Tiguan-Atlas etc. P/A/V vehicles will depend on your model year and sub-model (and probably the same for BMW, MBZ, etc. vehicles too). I'd suggest that you check with your dealer for tow ratings, parts, & set-up/reprogramming for adding the tow hitch receiver/etc.; & also look for your make/model/year parts diagrams at the dealer website parts section, &/or download the parts &/or service manuals from the manufacturers' websites - Porsche lists them at the documents section as "PET".

FYI - ALL Cay/Q7/Touareg models 2003> are set-up to add the factory towing option by just adding the hitch & electrical connector(s) for the full 7716# tow rating (or other lower for some PHEV, Q7, & later Cays due to heavier weight of batteries, 3rd row/length, etc.). All you have to do is add the appropriate hitch & electrical connector(s), brake controller (or the remote Tekonsha RF controller mounted on the trailer which plugs the hand control into the 12v/lighter round socket, etc.), & have the ECU/ECM computer(s) reprogrammed to now having the hitch option installed - then hook-up & go! This is great if you're looking at used examples, because you can always add the hitch without sacrificing tow capacity.

This is contrary to most other Mfgrs' pick-up trucks, SUVs/CUVs, Vans & cars - wherein you are stuck with the lowest 1000-1500# tow rating for cars/vans or 3500-5000 for the trucks & SUVs unless you buy the appropriate tow option from the start when new. For example, the vaunted F150 starts with a 5000# tow rating in the base model, & you have to pay extra for a range of higher tow ratings as extra cost options on the trucks, for which they also include the appropriate upgraded radiator, AT fluid cooler, brakes, frame rails, etc. to allow towing the rated higher trailers TWs - & this is true for most all other US & foreign Mfgrs. with a small few exceptions on specific models (e.g.: Toyota Land Cruiser, which all also come with the hitch AFAIK). You'd have to find out what & then do all of those upgrades throughout the vehicle in order to upgrade them to their respective TW ratings - beyond adding the appropriate receiver/hitch.

I was also told by a Porsche Tech very familiar with the Cayenne Hitches a few years back, that only the factory hitches included the sensors & harness to signal the onboard ECU/ECM computers that you were hitched up & to modify the Cayenne's performance for towing (engine, trans, brakes, AS if equipped, etc.), and that those parts weren't sold separately. This was a few years back when we were looking primarily at 955 & 957 CayS, so I don't know if this has changed for the 958>.

FYI - Sunset Porsche in OR, Suncoast Porsche in FL & Hennessey Porsche in Atlanta seem to have the best prices for the factory hitches online or by phone/email ordering if you're installing it or an indie - otherwise you can also use their prices to bargain with your local P-dealer, & ship the cheaper pricing one to their shop for their installation if they refuse to price match (remember to use lower price + shipping when bargaining, since in-house parts usually don't add shipping fees from the Porsche warehouses - but a few will).

My apologies for this late clarification, but I've been tied up full time with other business issues for the past few months. Hopefully this is helpful to others considering aftermarket vs. factory hitches for their Cayennes. IMHO go with a new or used factory hitch for 955/957/958 2003-18 Cayennes to get that extra frame rail strength - especially if you're using WDH.

PS - Here's a how to install topic from 6speed for the 955/957 FYI - & you can google there & Rennlist online for other years topics -

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ch-wiring.html


Cheers!
Tom
///////
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Orange CA
1960 Avion T20, #2 made, Hensley Cub, TV tbd- looking for 08-22 Cayenne S, EH, etc
1988 VW Vanagon Westfalia CamperGL (Orig Owner) + 1970 Eriba Puck
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:58 PM   #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post

Apparently the latest 2019-20> model does not have those legs on their newest model factory hitches as shown in the Porsche Parts Diagram below -


.

However - the factory hitches for the 955, 957 & 958 models did in fact have the frame rail extensions for extra strength, and were NOT just bolt on items - although Curt etc. aftermarket hitches for that era 2003-18 were just bolt-on, and those would lack the extra strength and WDH transfer into the unibody frame rails - as shown in the Porsche Parts Diagram below -





Cheers!
Tom
///////
I see the pics you posted are from byersporsche.com. The first pic appears accurate but the 2 pics for the 955-7 Cayenne hitch are not correct. There must be a problem with the Byers parts database. The Cayenne never had a frame rail hitch like that pictured. The factory hitch and the dealer add on are the same. My 955 has the factory hitch and it bolts into the unibody just like the new Cayennes. Can you find another, more detailed source with a pic of a frame rail 955 Cayenne factory hitch because I can't find one?
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Old 07-31-2020, 05:36 PM   #938
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Tom T - so thanks for this, so I did purchase a 2016 Cayenne diesel with 32K miles - very clean.Drive home on the 101 - 28.5 MPG! I will be installing the WHD - chain model type, also as to the break controller, did you install this or have the dealer install, I am not sure what Porsche has set up for this, I can talk to my dealer as I also have a 2014 Porsche Cayman S that I will be selling. I then want to move the battery's back under the bed to reduce TW which is like 680 lbs. I know there is a thread on this, looking for it. The good is I am an electrical contractor so this should be a nothing. Finally, working on the WiFi connection issues, as there are many great threads on this, looking at a duel Sim card router, roof mount duel antenna.


Regards - Bruce
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:30 PM   #939
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AdBlue Warning

I know this is an AS group, but this is the best place to get TDI questions answered. Just drove from Ohio to Leadville, CO pulling my SOB (Rockwood Mini Lite Camper) with my 2013 T-reg. Loaded it weighs around 3,800 lbs. I topped off the AdBlu and have driven 1,800 miles. I had to climb from Denver to Eisenhower tunnel. Running 2,500 to 3,000 RPM going up and down the other side. Temp went from 220 to 230 or 235 several times. When I got close to Leadville I got a AdBlu in 1,000 miles. The next time i start it says 900. I have never, never gone through AdBlu this fast in around the 70,000 miles I've driven it. Did the heat and high RPM cause the usage? When you get a warning how much is left in the tank?



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Old 07-31-2020, 09:36 PM   #940
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One week ago at a campground I met a guy towing AS with Audi Q5 diesel. He said that he was shocked how fast DEF is consumed after "the fix". There were going from Yellowstone to Mammoth Lakes and were stressed that they would not have enough DEF. They called Audi USA and were advised not to stop the engine and just drive to the destination if they go beyond the miles from the warning.

I did not notice significantly increased DEF usage when towing. I assume the usage increases by more less the same percentage as the diesel usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBDub View Post
I know this is an AS group, but this is the best place to get TDI questions answered. Just drove from Ohio to Leadville, CO pulling my SOB (Rockwood Mini Lite Camper) with my 2013 T-reg. Loaded it weighs around 3,800 lbs. I topped off the AdBlu and have driven 1,800 miles. I had to climb from Denver to Eisenhower tunnel. Running 2,500 to 3,000 RPM going up and down the other side. Temp went from 220 to 230 or 235 several times. When I got close to Leadville I got a AdBlu in 1,000 miles. The next time i start it says 900. I have never, never gone through AdBlu this fast in around the 70,000 miles I've driven it. Did the heat and high RPM cause the usage? When you get a warning how much is left in the tank?



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