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Old 03-31-2017, 07:21 PM   #461
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To WD or not....practical example

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikextr View Post
I too will take the recommendations of Porsche and ignore the internet WD fan boys....
Maybe some real world numbers will get the point across.

All manufacturers designing a vehicle that needs to have excellent handling will be striving for a 50 / 50 weight distribution front to rear. I think we can all agree on that.

Unhitched my Cayenne Diesel has 52% of its weight on the front axle and 48% on the rear (2620 lbs / 2380 lbs). Pretty good. The gasoline versions I expect are pretty close to a perfect 50/50 due to the lighter engine. Needless to say, the Cayenne is one of the best handling SUV's on the road.

My Cayenne hitched up but with no WD applied (measured on a CAT scale) is approx 36% front / 63% rear (2200 lbs / 3780 lbs). I have not tried to drive the rig hitched up this way and would not attempt to do so for the following reasons: -
1) I would be exceeding the rear axle max load which is 3693 lbs
2) I'm very confident it would feel very much like I had a 7000lb trailer in tow and not anywhere near as good as the unhitched setup.

So hitched with no WD applied my Cayenne has a greatly compromised front / rear weight distribution. What can be done to improve the situation? One method would be to eliminate some of the weight especially at the rear, a second method would be to move some of the weight forward. A WD hitch does both of these.

Onto the hitched case but with WD applied. In this example, my Cayenne has the same trailer hitched but with the proper amount of WD (equal squat front and rear - a good rule of thumb for most TV's). My front / rear weight distribution is now 48% / 51% (2820 lbs / 2960 lbs) - CAT scale ticket is below. Looking much better. You will also note my Cayenne got lighter by 200lbs when compared to the hitched, no WD case above. This is the WD moving 200lbs back to the trailer off the rear axle. A very welcome bonus. The WD also moves a significant amount of weight back to the front axle so that the front / rear weight distribution is back near 50 / 50. With this setup, the Cayenne handles almost identically wether it is hitched or not in terms of cornering, emergency maneuvers and braking stability.

Anyone who is towing with a vehicle like this that has somewhat limited payload and axle load capability is strongly recommended to use WD as stated above. If you choose not to, please, weigh your setup and confirm axle loadings are not exceeded. Assuming all is good and you are happy with how the rig handles then by all means proceed. I'm 100% confident however that anyone that takes the time to dial in a WD system will achieve a much better handling setup than not using WD.

Hopefully this is a useful practical example to explain the "why" of WD.

Sincerely,

Internet WD fan boy.
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Old 04-01-2017, 01:09 AM   #462
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Can this be true? 28.3 mpg at an avg speed of 55mph? This was taken today on the way to Pismo South. 2014 Cayenne Diesel pulling a 1947 22' Curtis Wright. Click image for larger version

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Old 04-01-2017, 03:26 AM   #463
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The entries in the vehicle identification are decisive: For my Cayenne, trailer load unbraked 750 kg, trailer load braked 3500 kg, load bearing 140 kg, trailer load 3500 kg, roof load car 100 kg. Typically the support load should be between 70 and 80 kg.
Speed on highways 80 km / h as trucks and autocars.

For Germany you can apply for a tempolimit of 100 km / h. : Towcar with anti-lock brake system and max. 3500 kg weight, trailer tire for 120 km / h, max. 6 years old tire. The trailer needs a vehicle dynamic stabilization system. Everything is checked by the road traffic authority and then one receives the operating permit in the evacuation.

http://www.airforums.com/photos/brow...mageuser=90917

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Old 04-01-2017, 08:35 AM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiobrits View Post
Maybe some real world numbers will get the point across.

All manufacturers designing a vehicle that needs to have excellent handling will be striving for a 50 / 50 weight distribution front to rear. I think we can all agree on that.

Unhitched my Cayenne Diesel has 52% of its weight on the front axle and 48% on the rear (2620 lbs / 2380 lbs). Pretty good. The gasoline versions I expect are pretty close to a perfect 50/50 due to the lighter engine. Needless to say, the Cayenne is one of the best handling SUV's on the road.

My Cayenne hitched up but with no WD applied (measured on a CAT scale) is approx 36% front / 63% rear (2200 lbs / 3780 lbs). I have not tried to drive the rig hitched up this way and would not attempt to do so for the following reasons: -
1) I would be exceeding the rear axle max load which is 3693 lbs
2) I'm very confident it would feel very much like I had a 7000lb trailer in tow and not anywhere near as good as the unhitched setup.

So hitched with no WD applied my Cayenne has a greatly compromised front / rear weight distribution. What can be done to improve the situation? One method would be to eliminate some of the weight especially at the rear, a second method would be to move some of the weight forward. A WD hitch does both of these.

Onto the hitched case but with WD applied. In this example, my Cayenne has the same trailer hitched but with the proper amount of WD (equal squat front and rear - a good rule of thumb for most TV's). My front / rear weight distribution is now 48% / 51% (2820 lbs / 2960 lbs) - CAT scale ticket is below. Looking much better. You will also note my Cayenne got lighter by 200lbs when compared to the hitched, no WD case above. This is the WD moving 200lbs back to the trailer off the rear axle. A very welcome bonus. The WD also moves a significant amount of weight back to the front axle so that the front / rear weight distribution is back near 50 / 50. With this setup, the Cayenne handles almost identically wether it is hitched or not in terms of cornering, emergency maneuvers and braking stability.

Anyone who is towing with a vehicle like this that has somewhat limited payload and axle load capability is strongly recommended to use WD as stated above. If you choose not to, please, weigh your setup and confirm axle loadings are not exceeded. Assuming all is good and you are happy with how the rig handles then by all means proceed. I'm 100% confident however that anyone that takes the time to dial in a WD system will achieve a much better handling setup than not using WD.

Hopefully this is a useful practical example to explain the "why" of WD.

Sincerely,

Internet WD fan boy.
I appreciate the hard data and real world numbers and I applaud you for taking an empirical approach with your WD hitch setup and not just taking advice from the internet WD hitch fan boys. However, I would like to point out that the transfer of weight off of the rear axle back to the trailer is not free. The cost is the powerful leverage the WD hitch applies to the Cayenne hitch attachment points and chassis. Based on their analysis of these forces, Porsche engineering has determined that they would rather Cayenne owners not subject their vehicles to the strain of a WD hitch. Also, the changes in handing that are caused by the loaded weight bias on rear axle are insignificant when towing within Porsche guidelines and don't rise to the level of a safety concern other than the fact that towing with any vehicle is less safe than not towing.

Porsche intentionally designed some oversteer into the Cayenne to make it feel more "Porsche like". If a loaded rear axle generally causes some understeer, then it would be safe to say that a properly loaded Cayenne has neutral to slight understeer handling characteristics because of the built in oversteer. I'm not really concerned with the unequal weight distribution since I travel light and won't be carving canyons or running my Cayenne on the track with my AS in tow.
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Old 04-01-2017, 05:35 PM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikextr View Post
Based on their analysis of these forces, Porsche engineering has determined that they would rather Cayenne owners not subject their vehicles to the strain of a WD hitch.
As others have pointed out above, Porsche does not prohibit use of WD. There is no mention in the Cayenne owners manual stating that WD can't be used. In addition, the receiver sticker states max tongue weight with and without WD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikextr View Post
Also, the changes in handing that are caused by the loaded weight bias on rear axle are insignificant when towing within Porsche guidelines and don't rise to the level of a safety concern other than the fact that towing with any vehicle is less safe than not towing.
Then why does Porsche limit vehicle speed to 60 mph with rear axle loads above 3384 lbs?
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Old 04-01-2017, 05:38 PM   #466
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What tires are you using?

Anyway - on to more productive things. Got a new set of wheels and tires for my Cayenne - what do you think?

Tires are Continental Extreme Contact 275/45 ZR20 110W XL. I have been running Pirelli 265/50 R19 110V XL winter tires all year round for the last 2 years. They handle really well for a winter tire but wear pretty fast in the summer months. I'll let you all know how the Continentals compare in a week or so - we are heading to New Orleans for Spring Break, a 2000 mile round trip.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:04 PM   #467
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I completely agree with you. You need to make sure you understand the impact and look at the values to make your determination.

Thanks for the detailed breakdown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiobrits View Post
Maybe some real world numbers will get the point across.

All manufacturers designing a vehicle that needs to have excellent handling will be striving for a 50 / 50 weight distribution front to rear. I think we can all agree on that.

Unhitched my Cayenne Diesel has 52% of its weight on the front axle and 48% on the rear (2620 lbs / 2380 lbs). Pretty good. The gasoline versions I expect are pretty close to a perfect 50/50 due to the lighter engine. Needless to say, the Cayenne is one of the best handling SUV's on the road.

My Cayenne hitched up but with no WD applied (measured on a CAT scale) is approx 36% front / 63% rear (2200 lbs / 3780 lbs). I have not tried to drive the rig hitched up this way and would not attempt to do so for the following reasons: -
1) I would be exceeding the rear axle max load which is 3693 lbs
2) I'm very confident it would feel very much like I had a 7000lb trailer in tow and not anywhere near as good as the unhitched setup.

So hitched with no WD applied my Cayenne has a greatly compromised front / rear weight distribution. What can be done to improve the situation? One method would be to eliminate some of the weight especially at the rear, a second method would be to move some of the weight forward. A WD hitch does both of these.

Onto the hitched case but with WD applied. In this example, my Cayenne has the same trailer hitched but with the proper amount of WD (equal squat front and rear - a good rule of thumb for most TV's). My front / rear weight distribution is now 48% / 51% (2820 lbs / 2960 lbs) - CAT scale ticket is below. Looking much better. You will also note my Cayenne got lighter by 200lbs when compared to the hitched, no WD case above. This is the WD moving 200lbs back to the trailer off the rear axle. A very welcome bonus. The WD also moves a significant amount of weight back to the front axle so that the front / rear weight distribution is back near 50 / 50. With this setup, the Cayenne handles almost identically wether it is hitched or not in terms of cornering, emergency maneuvers and braking stability.

Anyone who is towing with a vehicle like this that has somewhat limited payload and axle load capability is strongly recommended to use WD as stated above. If you choose not to, please, weigh your setup and confirm axle loadings are not exceeded. Assuming all is good and you are happy with how the rig handles then by all means proceed. I'm 100% confident however that anyone that takes the time to dial in a WD system will achieve a much better handling setup than not using WD.

Hopefully this is a useful practical example to explain the "why" of WD.

Sincerely,

Internet WD fan boy.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:08 PM   #468
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My Macan came with Continentals, those tires were horrible to drive with after you hit 15k. I also had 3 different flat tires on them in that time. I got rid of them and moved to Michelin. So far they have driven amazing and I am at 35k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiobrits View Post
Anyway - on to more productive things. Got a new set of wheels and tires for my Cayenne - what do you think?

Tires are Continental Extreme Contact 275/45 ZR20 110W XL. I have been running Pirelli 265/50 R19 110V XL winter tires all year round for the last 2 years. They handle really well for a winter tire but wear pretty fast in the summer months. I'll let you all know how the Continentals compare in a week or so - we are heading to New Orleans for Spring Break, a 2000 mile round trip.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:41 PM   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011Cloud View Post
Anybody experience oil consumption (about a quart / 10k miles) while towing? Zero oil consumption without tow. 2016 Treg with 30k miles, 5.5k lb. bamby.
2011 Cloud - I see about a 1/2 to 3/4 of a quart of consumption between changes (5000 miles for the Cayenne). I do not see much difference in consumption towing or not but I do tow all year round so maybe I wouldn't notice.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:51 PM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsTara View Post
My Macan came with Continentals, those tires were horrible to drive with after you hit 15k. I also had 3 different flat tires on them in that time. I got rid of them and moved to Michelin. So far they have driven amazing and I am at 35k.
Thanks for the input. Maybe I should have posted here before buying.... This particular Continental was the highest rated all season with these specs on TireRack so hopefully it will work out. We will see.
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:18 PM   #471
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Re: Tires -
The Pirelli Scorpions are also good tires on the Cayenne/Macan, but you all should be aware that Porsche has specific N-Rated tires for their cars, including Cay/Mac. You can get their current list of rated tires on their Porsche website technical data section.

Re: WD Hitches -
Weight Distributing or "Equalizing" hitches of any type simply distributes the bearing weight on the hitch more evenly between the wheels, which is a benefit for all of steering, braking & traction. It is not just so you can carry a heavier trailer nor to overload your TV, as some have claimed is being said here.

Re: Anti-sway Hitches -
Regardless of whether the TV has a vehicle-equipped anti-sway system - which is essentially opposing brake application to counteract the sway, similar to Porsche's Torque Vectoring system - those systems can & have become overwhelmed by trailer sway or snaking in some situations, & several of those mishaps have been posted here. So having anti-sway devices or a hitch designed to eliminate sway is a plus on any TV -with or without it's own braking based AS system.

Re: Macan Towing Ratings -
Again for MsTara & others with Macans, look on your hitch's certification sticker - it will show both weight bearing & weight distributed values. We too looked at the Maca as a possible TV, by my wife wanted more cargo space & interior room for passengers offered by the Cayenne. However it could handle our relatively light vintage Avion, & can use a WD hitch.

Lastly, as for some folks nasty comments about folks who "read it on the internet" & "Internet WD fan boy" & claiming that the vaunted VW & Porsche engineers are being sullied here by myself & others (per MsTara, MikeXTR, others) ....

Let's be perfectly & absolutely clear about this - what I have stated is directly from PORSCHE engineers at PCA Tech Sessions, my personal contacts with several Porsche Techs with decades of Porsche expertise also employed by PCNA/PAG, & Porsche's own literature.

So let's not just throw about wild accusations & other such stuff to sideline people. Enough of us have supplied facts on this matter, which others choose to ignore. That is just rude.

If you doubt the facts - then do further research yourself with real authorities, beyond the guy or gal you sold you the car, who probably have never themselves towed more than a red "Flyer" wagon behind their bikes as a kid!

And the European WD hitch bans is not BS - if you want to check facts, look for the 1972 US-DOT research paper on towing & hitches, where it is specifically mentioned.

Bottom line - Porsche Cayennes & Macans are in fact designed to be used for towing duties within their rated capacities under the SAE & TUV test standards, for BOTH bare ball & WD hitches.

As a Porsche owner since 1975, & a PCA member & Concours Judge, & a Porsche Fan - I find MsTaras & some others' comments flat insulting!

Nuff Said!
Tom
///////
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Old 04-02-2017, 07:50 AM   #472
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I think one of the things to be considered re WD hook-up torquing the chassis is whether the hitch has had additional reinforcement post market. I'm pretty sure Can AM does extra support on any vehicle they set up. SO while Porsche may be right in their approach for the factory hitch, additional support will take care of the additional stresses and it can't be denied that putting 600 or 700 lbs on the rear of any vehicle short of a heavy duty truck, will drop the rear end and lighten the load up front; not to mention the effect on headlight pattern, traction etc. A 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck might not be too affected by 700 lbs of tongue wt. but I can't see any car that would pass that test.
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Old 04-02-2017, 07:00 PM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Streamline View Post
Can this be true? 28.3 mpg at an avg speed of 55mph? This was taken today on the way to Pismo South. 2014 Cayenne Diesel pulling a 1947 22' Curtis Wright. Attachment 282498
Is it down from solo mpg under those conditions by 30-40%. Then the answer would be yes. That trailer barely exists in terms of wind resistance and anything under 60-mph negates the worst penalty of speed.
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:58 AM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiobrits View Post
As others have pointed out above, Porsche does not prohibit use of WD. There is no mention in the Cayenne owners manual stating that WD can't be used. In addition, the receiver sticker states max tongue weight with and without WD.

OK. On my hitch decal there is a WC weight of 616 posted and a WD weight of 616 posted also. So if you're going to use a WD hitch it should not be for the purpose of towing a tongue weight in excess of 616lbs.



Then why does Porsche limit vehicle speed to 60 mph with rear axle loads above 3384 lbs?
That's fine. Slower is safer. I try not to tow over 65mph anyway.
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:57 PM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiobrits View Post
As others have pointed out above, Porsche does not prohibit use of WD. There is no mention in the Cayenne owners manual stating that WD can't be used. In addition, the receiver sticker states max tongue weight with and without WD.



Then why does Porsche limit vehicle speed to 60 mph with rear axle loads above 3384 lbs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
Re: Tires -
The Pirelli Scorpions are also good tires on the Cayenne/Macan, but you all should be aware that Porsche has specific N-Rated tires for their cars, including Cay/Mac. You can get their current list of rated tires on their Porsche website technical data section.

Re: WD Hitches -
Weight Distributing or "Equalizing" hitches of any type simply distributes the bearing weight on the hitch more evenly between the wheels, which is a benefit for all of steering, braking & traction. It is not just so you can carry a heavier trailer nor to overload your TV, as some have claimed is being said here.

Re: Anti-sway Hitches -
Regardless of whether the TV has a vehicle-equipped anti-sway system - which is essentially opposing brake application to counteract the sway, similar to Porsche's Torque Vectoring system - those systems can & have become overwhelmed by trailer sway or snaking in some situations, & several of those mishaps have been posted here. So having anti-sway devices or a hitch designed to eliminate sway is a plus on any TV -with or without it's own braking based AS system.

Re: Macan Towing Ratings -
Again for MsTara & others with Macans, look on your hitch's certification sticker - it will show both weight bearing & weight distributed values. We too looked at the Maca as a possible TV, by my wife wanted more cargo space & interior room for passengers offered by the Cayenne. However it could handle our relatively light vintage Avion, & can use a WD hitch.

Lastly, as for some folks nasty comments about folks who "read it on the internet" & "Internet WD fan boy" & claiming that the vaunted VW & Porsche engineers are being sullied here by myself & others (per MsTara, MikeXTR, others) ....

Let's be perfectly & absolutely clear about this - what I have stated is directly from PORSCHE engineers at PCA Tech Sessions, my personal contacts with several Porsche Techs with decades of Porsche expertise also employed by PCNA/PAG, & Porsche's own literature.

So let's not just throw about wild accusations & other such stuff to sideline people. Enough of us have supplied facts on this matter, which others choose to ignore. That is just rude.

If you doubt the facts - then do further research yourself with real authorities, beyond the guy or gal you sold you the car, who probably have never themselves towed more than a red "Flyer" wagon behind their bikes as a kid!

And the European WD hitch bans is not BS - if you want to check facts, look for the 1972 US-DOT research paper on towing & hitches, where it is specifically mentioned.

Bottom line - Porsche Cayennes & Macans are in fact designed to be used for towing duties within their rated capacities under the SAE & TUV test standards, for BOTH bare ball & WD hitches.

As a Porsche owner since 1975, & a PCA member & Concours Judge, & a Porsche Fan - I find MsTaras & some others' comments flat insulting!

Nuff Said!
Tom
///////
The decal on my OEM Cayenne hitch lists a WC of 616lbs and a WD of 616lbs. Based on this info one should not use weight distribution on a Cayenne of my model year to tow a trailer with a tongue weight greater than 616lbs. Because there is no mention of WD in the towing section of my owner's manual, I choose not to use WD. Regardless of the legal status of WD hitches in Europe, I'm quite certain that Porsche would include WD recommendations for North American owners in the towing section of the owner's manual if significant gains in safety and performance were realized by using a WD hitch on a Cayenne.
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Old 04-03-2017, 01:26 PM   #476
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"What tires are you using?
Anyway - on to more productive things. Got a new set of wheels and tires for my Cayenne - what do you think?"

The new sport wheels are beautiful and the Continental Extreme Contact 275/45 ZR20 110W XLs are excellent tires. Did you save your 19's for winter tires? I usually run Pirelli P-Zero performance summer tires but have switched to Pirelli P-Zero Nero all season performance because I will be driving in colder conditions (without my AS in tow) this coming winter. They were also on sale which always helps. It's difficult to get any more than 20K out of set tires. Because of the staggered wheel setup on my Turbo S, tire rotation is not really practical.
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Old 04-03-2017, 01:56 PM   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikextr View Post
The decal on my OEM Cayenne hitch lists a WC of 616lbs and a WD of 616lbs. Based on this info one should not use weight distribution on a Cayenne of my model year to tow a trailer with a tongue weight greater than 616lbs.
I don't think that is quite what it says. To me, it says you can't increase tongue weight beyond 616 lbs solely through the use of WD equipment, with the stock hitch. If they didn't want you to use WD equipment with the stock hitch they could have said so on the label.

Now, if you want to use WD equipment and want to apply more than 616 lbs, consider an aftermarket hitch or strengthen the OE one. And respect axle and tire load limits.
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Old 04-03-2017, 02:18 PM   #478
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Towing weight on Touaregs has been 7700 lbs since 2004, regardless of whether it's a V6, V8, or V10, gas or diesel, even though GVW are different. Hitch design and weights are different in Europe, which is suggested at 8% of tow weight, which is 616 lbs. In US, suggested hitch weight is 10%, or 770 lbs on Touareg. I called VW NA and they sent me a hitch weight sticker that said 770lbs.

But believe and do what you want. After 8 years towing with a V8 and a V10, I never lost a hitch using just the ball and/or a hensley.
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Old 04-03-2017, 03:39 PM   #479
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CanAm has been mentioned in this thread (and many others) as being the experts on hitching. Andy has actually written about hitching up a Porsche Cayenne in his Hitch Hints column of the Canadian magazine RV Lifestyles. He was asked to do this by Porsche Canada. Have a read, here is a link to the magazine...

http://rvlifemag.dgtlpub.com/issues/...2013-02-28.pdf

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Old 04-03-2017, 04:19 PM   #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSA63 View Post
CanAm has been mentioned in this thread (and many others) as being the experts on hitching. Andy has actually written about hitching up a Porsche Cayenne in his Hitch Hints column of the Canadian magazine RV Lifestyles. He was asked to do this by Porsche Canada. Have a read, here is a link to the magazine...

http://rvlifemag.dgtlpub.com/issues/...2013-02-28.pdf

Kevin
Great article about the Cayenne but almost no information on the hitch setup. Andy reinforced the hitch. That's what he does. But he doesn't give us any numbers justifying the reinforcement. Also, no numbers describing the WD hitch setup.
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