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Old 09-23-2016, 02:39 PM   #361
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Hello...

We want to say hello to everyone on this forum. We just picked up our 2013 FC20 two weeks ago. We are using a 2012 Cayenne S hybrid (supercharged V6 from Audi) as the TV. It was this thread that gave us tons of info to give us the confidence to make this combo work.

We towed 1000 miles our first 3 days (Co back to MN via Wyoming and SD). Personally, I really like the suspension, brakes etc.. of the Cayenne S and also the 20" tires we have. Also, the 8 speed transmission worked great. We got about 13 MPG. You can feel serious cross winds but never felt unstable. We are using a Reese sway bar that came with the FC20.

Not too interested in a weight distribution hitch because of discussions about the interaction with the air suspension.

We measure the tongue weight at the dealer (bought a scale and put it on a jack at the appropriate height) and it came in at 580LBS with the fresh water tank about 3/4 full.

Anyway, thanks everyone for all the good info.

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Old 09-23-2016, 02:57 PM   #362
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Old 09-23-2016, 03:36 PM   #363
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Question Tonge weight make/model you bought?

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Originally Posted by cedonly View Post
We want to say hello to everyone on this forum. We just picked up our 2013 FC20 two weeks ago. We are using a 2012 Cayenne S hybrid (supercharged V6 from Audi) as the TV. It was this thread that gave us tons of info to give us the confidence to make this combo work.

We towed 1000 miles our first 3 days (Co back to MN via Wyoming and SD). Personally, I really like the suspension, brakes etc.. of the Cayenne S and also the 20" tires we have. Also, the 8 speed transmission worked great. We got about 13 MPG. You can feel serious cross winds but never felt unstable. We are using a Reese sway bar that came with the FC20.

Not too interested in a weight distribution hitch because of discussions about the interaction with the air suspension.

We measure the tongue weight at the dealer (bought a scale and put it on a jack at the appropriate height) and it came in at 580LBS with the fresh water tank about 3/4 full.

Anyway, thanks everyone for all the good info.

Congrats on your AS/TV combo! I'm curious to know what tongue weight you bought? I think I need to get one to put in my 'must' tool bag
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Old 09-24-2016, 07:46 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by cedonly View Post
Not too interested in a weight distribution hitch because of discussions about the interaction with the air suspension.
After a few trips to the weight scales you might change your mind.

I measured my Cayenne at 2900 fr and 2700 rear with me in the car. When I picked up my AS with a WD system that was set-up by my dealer, I hit the scales and measured 2700 fr and 4200 rear fully loaded and with my wife in the car. wtf? Losing 200 lbs on the front adversely affects handling and no telling how much it would have dropped without the WD system.

So I cranked up the spring bars and was able to shift another 200 lbs forward to bring the front axel back to 2900 lbs. The system also shifted weight back to the AS axels.

I have no issues with my factory air suspension and wouldn't tow with a WD system.

YMMV, Dave
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Old 09-24-2016, 08:43 AM   #365
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Just wondering, what is the GVWR and axle ratings of Cayenne?
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Old 09-24-2016, 09:52 AM   #366
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Just wondering, what is the GVWR and axle ratings of Cayenne?
The ratings for my first gen Cayenne are:

Front: 3,208
Rear: 3,913 (for trailer operation)
GVWR: 6,790 lbs

Dave
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Old 09-24-2016, 06:40 PM   #367
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Cedonly, I would definitely try WD. It should make a significant impact on how your combination handles and on overall stability. The air suspension will level the setup but does not restore weight to the front axle on your TV. For handling and ride similar to unhitched you need to get the loading on your TV axles approximately equal. The rear will still likely be a bit heavier but that is the goal - should equate to equal squat at the front and the rear when hitched up. Adjust your WD prior to activating the air suspension, get your TV level then engage the air suspension. Measure wheel arch clearances on your TV unhitched, hitch and then set WD to get equal squat.

There are many people towing with WD and air suspension without any issues. Wish I'd got the air suspension on mine.....
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Old 09-24-2016, 07:25 PM   #368
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Why did you add "for trailer operation"? Does Porsche provide additional rear axle limit for the car towing a trailer?

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Originally Posted by dasams View Post
The ratings for my first gen Cayenne are:

Front: 3,208
Rear: 3,913 (for trailer operation)
GVWR: 6,790 lbs

Dave
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Old 09-24-2016, 08:27 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bono View Post
Why did you add "for trailer operation"? Does Porsche provide additional rear axle limit for the car towing a trailer?

Yes, they specify a higher axle rating at the rear when towing at max 60mph, about 300lbs more. GVWR does not change. In Europe no WD is used so rear axle weight increase is to be expected at the expense of front axle load. If you calculate the rear and front axle loads with the max 616 lb tongue weight applied (considering axle and receiver locations) the rear axle load is pretty close to the towing rating assuming weight for two adults in the front seats. In the US we typically use WD so this is not an issue, some tongue weight goes back to the trailer and some to the TV front axle for a nicely balanced combination. Here's a manual extract for some of the 2014 models.

http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/...ayenne/10/342/

The higher towing rear axle rating allows the TV to support more tongue weight (or cargo) but the speed limit is a good indication that vehicle stability and braking is impacted when too much load is on the rear and the front wheels are light. For my setup, the rear axle weight is below the "normal" max rear axle rating with a good dose of WD applied so I suppose no speed limit for me.....
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Old 09-25-2016, 07:45 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiobrits View Post
For my setup, the rear axle weight is below the "normal" max rear axle rating with a good dose of WD applied so I suppose no speed limit for me.....
Good info. With a fully loaded 27 FC, how close are you to your axel limits and tongue weight? Dave
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Old 09-25-2016, 12:51 PM   #371
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from the Airfourm research, I bought a Sherline 0-1000 load master. You can attach an extension that will allow the scale to be physically under the hitch.
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Old 09-25-2016, 12:58 PM   #372
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Cayenne S air suspension only has 3 settings: comfort, normal and sport (which also affects the shifting mapping). I keep the Cayenne in normal during towing. I also measured the drop on the rear after hitching up the 20FC.

Nothing comes for free... the WD attempts to put a torque thru the hitch to redistribute the weight. We had no issues with steering or leveling with the current setup. In fact, on the first day, we had a deer run out infront of us and we were able to safely reduce speed from 65 to below 30..

I think the dynamics are also driven by the amount of force you distribute thru the hitch from the trailer to the TV under braking. With the EBC set properly, then the hitch "pin joint" should have minimal force being transferred to the TV and the TV only responds to the constant vertical load thru the pin joint.
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Old 09-25-2016, 01:13 PM   #373
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I also saw some questions about towing mirrors. We went with Dometic Aero wide mirrors. They have two clips on the frame of the Cayenne side mirrors. They are well made and work great. We had no issues at higher speeds and with cross winds... I think we paid about $100 for them.
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Old 09-26-2016, 08:07 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasams View Post
Good info. With a fully loaded 27 FC, how close are you to your axel limits and tongue weight? Dave
Here is a CAT scale ticket from over a year ago. I'm more aggressive now with WD application and my trailer is heavier now due to mods but this is a good guide.

This ticket was with 4 people in the car, my dog and a bundle of firewood. 1 person more than I normally carry (my teenage son at about 155lbs). I had 6.5" on the jacks and 4 washers. I now use 6 washers and 6.5" (more WD). You will note the TV is 6160 lbs (123 lbs under GVWR) and axle loads are all comfortably under ratings. Tongue weight was not weighed on this trip but in this configuration it was about 750lbs (my battery had been moved to the rear and I had done other tongue lightening measures).

This year I relocated the batteries to just behind the rear axle and replaced the lead acid batteries with a huge but light Lithium battery. With other mods the trailer is now about 7500lbs fully loaded for camping with water and my tongue weight about 820. I have not weighed it again since putting the Lithium battery in or doing the other mods. I now carry my full size TV spare in the rear of the Cayenne (rather than under the dinette) and I suspect I may actually be slightly over GVWR on the Cayenne now. The Cayenne handles so well however (better than last year) that I don't care.

I will weight it again at the end of the season to see but its just for the record at this point. If it is over GVWR a little I'm not going to worry. The axle ratings are expected to be well within ratings still which in my mind is the most important factor together with tire load ratings.
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Old 09-27-2016, 08:15 AM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiobrits View Post
I had 6.5" on the jacks and 4 washers. I now use 6 washers and 6.5" (more WD). You will note the TV is 6160 lbs (123 lbs under GVWR) and axle loads are all comfortably under ratings.
It is really interesting that you got your rear axel down to 3,360 as mine is at 3,900 (right at the axel limit). My first gen Cayenne is also about 500 lbs heavier than 2011 and later models.

My dealer set-up my Husky hitch with only two washers so I think I'll add more to see if I can improve weight distribution.

Thanks, Dave
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Old 09-27-2016, 10:08 AM   #376
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it is also interesting how you managed to fit 6 washers. I could do only two, but I guess this depends on the position of the stinger (up vs down) in this piece which goes to the receiver.
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Old 09-27-2016, 10:44 AM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bono View Post
it is also interesting how you managed to fit 6 washers. I could do only two, but I guess this depends on the position of the stinger (up vs down) in this piece which goes to the receiver.

I get asked about that a lot. Make sure your pin and washers is at the opposite end to the central pivot bolt. In the second photo my pin and washers are on the right .

My pin is a bit flat on the end and I used some washers from Lowes which may be a bit thinner but you should be able to get at least 4 in there. You want as much downward droop on the end that goes into the receiver on the TV as possible to enable good WD.

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Old 09-27-2016, 12:59 PM   #378
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This is the thing. I have another setup, i.e. the plates are down, etc. This is the photo with no washers. I was able to add only two, no way I could squeeze more.

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Old 09-27-2016, 07:04 PM   #379
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Quote:
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This is the thing. I have another setup, i.e. the plates are down, etc. This is the photo with no washers. I was able to add only two, no way I could squeeze more.




Bono - I'm not sure what the difference is with your setup (other than the obvious- it's the other way up!). Your pin and washers are at the top right?

I'm pretty sure that the slots in the side plates (that allow the angle/tilt for the top and bottom bolts) are the same length at the top and bottom and the pivot bolt hole location is the same relative to these slotted holes so it should not matter which way up the plates are. At least that's what I think.

Try loosening off all bolts and see if you can get anymore tilt. The top bolt should be hard up against the front of the top slot and the bottom bolt hard up against the rear of the bottom slot. The washers on these bolts could be covering some slot so it looks like they are hard over but maybe they are not.

If you have checked all this then I don't know what the difference is.

Can-Am sometimes puts a bend in the shank when fitting PP's and will re drill for the pin to get the hitch closer to the receiver. This may be an option either via a visit or shipping parts. Check with Andy if you want to go this route.
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Old 09-27-2016, 10:39 PM   #380
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I am 100% sure that I can’t add any more washers… You are correct, the pin and washers are at the top. I was thinking that since you may have different distance between the tilt bolt and the pin, you are getting different angle for the stinger vs. this second metal part that goes to the receiver (hitch bar?). If the angle is higher, you may be able to add more washers. Just my speculations without looking the hitch. I am not sure if I need more tilt. I need to visit CAT scales. I am cranking my bars approx. 4 inches and have an impression that I am transferring too much to the front. Again, need to visit CAT scales… maybe this weekend after weekend camping trip.
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