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Old 04-21-2021, 11:56 AM   #1
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Payload margin of error engineered in???

How much of a margin of error or safety margin do vehicle engineers factor into their payload maximum decisions?

If a tow vehicle's maximum payload is, say, 1500 pounds, does that mean by exceeding that maximum by an additional 50 pounds will cause significant harm to the vehicle or cause imminent or premature failure of components? What about 500 pounds over?

Knowing that some vehicle users might overload a vehicle at some point... either accidentally or intentionally... I would think that engineers would factor in an undisclosed margin for error, just to compensate for potential overloading.

If so, what would that percentage be? I wonder how many people are being overly stressed out about being a couple hundred pounds over the maximum payload listed during the few times a year they tow their trailer?

Obviously, full timers or very frequent users would be wiser buying a larger tow vehicle, but for the occasional short excursion travellers, I wonder if those payload maximums are overly cautious or conservative?
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Old 04-21-2021, 01:24 PM   #2
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Watch your GAWR vs. payload

SnowWanderer, we had a 1500 truck with 1220 lbs. of payload towing a 27’ Globetrotter. We were definitely at / over the payload with the trailer’s 1100 lbs. tongue weight. The wheels didn’t fall off the truck and it pulled the trailer fine.

We took it to the CAT scale for a three-pass weigh and found it was within 100 lbs. of being over the truck’s rear axle maximum of 4100 lbs. That number will give you a better idea of being overloaded. People tow at or over the limits all the time. It’s all about your comfort level.

We chose to move up to a 2500 with 2940 lbs payload and 6390 lbs on the rear axles. Truck weighs 1100 lbs more than the 1500 and gets the same fuel mileage. No longer feels like the trailer is pushing the truck around.

Your mileage may vary!

PS: Just don’t be “That Guy”
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Old 04-21-2021, 02:35 PM   #3
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You didn’t hear this from me...
I thought my 2019’s F-150’s payload was 1,500 which I pretty much maxed out. After driving 6,700 miles all over the country, I found out it’s 1,275. It didn’t blow up, It handled an emergency stop, and I typically averaged 5 over the speed limit...oops!
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Old 04-22-2021, 12:41 PM   #4
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One thing to consider is dynamic load. Let's say you are 200 lbs above the payload limit. I am sure you are generally fine. But then perhaps you hit a big bump and now you have all that mass bouncing up and then pushing down twice as hard. I suspect that is where you start to bend things a bit. Just a thought.
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:24 PM   #5
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I suspect that the weakest link on most 1/2 ton trucks or body on frame suvs is going to be the spring rate. Some of the rigs I see in Australia have to be crazy over weight.
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:43 PM   #6
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I was taught to load to a max of 80% of the allowable weight, but better to be under 75%. That’s why I traded my 4Runner for a Sierra: although my AS has a empty weight of 4200, loaded is up to 5000 lbs, the 4Runner max towing is 5000lbs... a car dealer would tell you that you’re fine, but, I wouldn’t be comfortable with that. My specific Sierra is rated for 9800lbs, thus tongue weight rating is 980lbs: tongue weight is supposed to be 10 to 15% of the trailer weight (13% is ideal), so my trailer maxed out at 5,000 lbs could have a tongue weight of up to 750lbs (630 would be a great target). So, 20% of 980lbs is 784lbs... ie, my truck is well matched to my trailer.

If I was going to get a larger trailer, a 25’ or 27’ or 28’, I’d slide up to an HD instead of my 1500....
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:45 PM   #7
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I once rented a flatbed pickup from Menards to transport some compost for my son’s yard. The front end loader was feeling either generous or evil and gave me about twice the amount I’d asked for. The bottom of the bed was rubbing the tops of the tires. I drove the one mile loaded to my son’s house, unloaded, and returned the truck minus a mm or so of rubber.
Of course there is a “safety factor “, but any engineer who divulges it will have his tongue cut out by the corporate lawyers.
It’s your truck, and your safety (well, OK, there are a few million other drivers out there to think of), and from your anxious tone I doubt you will do anything outrageous, so live your life... Just compensate with extra careful driving, inspect your rig about three times as often , and know when to say “when”!
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Old 04-27-2021, 07:01 AM   #8
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My son is an engineer. He engineers bike systems for a major producer. When I asked him about tolerances he said they always over engineer stuff because they know it will come under more severe conditions. As to how much is in the payload fudge factor I have no idea. But my guess is that if you were to constantly run your truck over the specifications it would either wear out sooner or something would give. But if it was an occasional occurrence you would be fine. But then again it would depend upon how much over you ran it. What I would like to know is how they determine payload in the first place. What are the test factors, etc.
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Old 04-27-2021, 08:12 AM   #9
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I think they do **a bit**, but 50lbs, I doubt would cause much of an issue, but if you start to get north of 100+lbs, will it break, prob not, but when you grossly overload a vehicle, components will fail prematurely. Body bushings (if body on frame) suspension component connections as well as suspension components, u-joints, control arms, etc....and what has never really been thoroughly addressed is what happens if you are involved in trading paint and it's significant and you are at fault?

Does that open you up to the litigious society we now live in? Understanding that most people carry basic 100/300/100 with the trailer having it's own insurance (mostly against your loss). If a new truck costs upward of $80k and you hit say a fellow RVer that has an $80k truck and a $50k RV and they are considered totaled, you are on the hook (depending on depreciation) for what 30k, then it's found that they guy has a sore neck (and you have a max of 300k medical which gets chewed up in 6 mos@$50 a band-aid) and oh, look here, you exceeded the manufacturer's specs...... doesn't take much for an opposing counsel to make an argument and haul you into court. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, the fact that you now have to go through this process can be wicked stressful, let alone if you are left holding the bag with a somewhat false sense of security having lost the suit..... Insurance companies are ALL about the bottom line. Think I'm wrong, how many times have you heard of the guy that paid his premiums for 30 years, had 3 claims in 1 year and was dropped?

So no, 50lbs prob won't break the bank, but for my money, I carry higher coverage, stay well below the ratings (with between a 10 and 20% margin from max), and carry a separate liability policy (which by defaut puts me up to 250/500/250 to be able to get the separate liability coverage). Now full disclosure, I also carry it because I rent and manage real-estate and it's also an extra layer of protection among other things, but it does or could come in handy here too) Sounds crazy expensive right? Not really, I pay maybe $300 more a year and get well over a million dollars in liability for at fault at which time if the music does stop and I find myself without seat, my insurer will assign it's feet of retained counsel to pay as little as possible with a over a mill at stake.

The bottom line is that it's all about your tolerance to risk. This is just my tolerance level, I know many folks way on the other side of it.
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Old 04-27-2021, 09:37 AM   #10
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Here's how it was 'engineered' when I worked in GM product engineering many, many moons ago: The CAD designer designs a part so that it 'looks right'. The engineer in charge of that part orders a couple of dozen prototypes built and has them installed on test cars at the proving grounds. If they last 10,000 mi at the proving grounds, it was 'good to go' into production. That wasn't why I became an engineer and one of the many reasons I left after a short while. Hopefully, their process has improved over the past 35 years.
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Old 04-27-2021, 10:22 AM   #11
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What happens in an emergency situation with an overloaded tow vehicle?

What happens when you have to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision?

What happens when you have to swerve suddenly to avoid a collision?

What happens when you hit a pothole or some debris on the road?

What happens when you have to suddenly take an unexpected detour and all that over gross load up a steeper incline than you had anticipated, or have to descend a steeper incline than you had anticipated?

Nothing in this world is free. An overloaded vehicle is going to put increased stress on various components which will experience accelerated wear and a premature end of life. If you think you’re saving yourself some thing by overloading your tow vehicle, you are only kidding yourself. The laws of physics do not care whether or not you believe in them or ignore them.

Any monkey can fly an airplane in perfect weather. What happens when the S**T hits the fan?
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Old 04-27-2021, 10:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panamerican View Post
I think they do **a bit**, but 50lbs, I doubt would cause much of an issue, but if you start to get north of 100+lbs, will it break, prob not, but when you grossly overload a vehicle,
100+ pounds? I have spent enough time on farms to know that hundreds of pounds over doesn't ever break things. Thousands of pounds is where you start running into issues.

Have you guys seen what it takes to investigate a vehicle accident? Have you seen a vehicle accident with a trailer? Your stuff is not getting weighed. After the fact the lawyers might investigate what the dry weight was of the trailer and make sure you didn't have a Harley in the bed too. Unless you are obviously over weight on paper this is going to be impossible to prove.

Here is a company that builds Govt. issue armored land cruisers. I don't know what the weight of these are but it has to be insane. I would guess as much as 3k# of GVWR. Someone else should chime in.

Here are the modifications they did to handle this weight to a standard Toyota Landcruiser

Change of a suspension and shock absorbers to high strength parts as well as reinforcement of mounting portions
Change of break pads to high strength parts
http://www.securico.co.jp/catalog/land.pdf

This is all that was required to handle thousands of pounds of extra cargo.

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Old 04-27-2021, 10:54 AM   #13
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As an engineer working on many complex platforms and systems.

We are not privy to the data that helps us understand what is the system limitation or constraint that drives the stated capacities. It completely comes down to the specific model in question and it may differ for various vehicles. It is also a question of whether it's a performance limitation, structure, durability, safety, etc.

That said, much of the stated capacities are driven by suspension alone. Because suspensions are generally a compromise between ride quality and load bearing capability. That's why you see so many cars, from standard sedans, minivans, SUVs, trucks, all generally in the same 1000-1300lb payload. Spring rate is a primary factor that dictates ride comfort, and load handling limitations.

Which could mean it's a relatively easy area to address as there's tons of upgrades and modifications available in the aftermarket. Whether one feels comfortable with that is their own prerogative.

I won't speak to regulations as that's a completely different ballgame with artificial (to me) constraints. As an engineer, it's straightforward to make changes and upgrades to make things work. That's what engineers do after all, whether paid or on their own.

And yes, there's always margin built in. A system always assumes the lowest common denominator of users. Particularly now as platforms are all rated via SAE J2807. So it's arguable whether the age old individually applied 80% capacity rule is necessary. Then again, it's wholly possible without common sense, that even 25% should apply to some.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:18 AM   #14
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100+ pounds? I have spent enough time on farms to know that hundreds of pounds over doesn't ever break things. Thousands of pounds is where you start running into issues.

Be smart, be safe but always think critically.

If I eluded to 100lbs breaking things, that was not my intention, which is why I threw out the general statement of grossly overload which would mean thousands.

I will say, comparing a tractor (I have 3) to a passenger car isn't really an apples to apples comparison, heck in many cases the driveline itself is part of the frame support, passenger cars (not so much light trucks) are built nowhere near as tough as a farm tractor.

I will say that for passenger cars used as tow vehicles, the more over what it's stated design, the faster it will wear out, prob won't outright break as if you immediately went say 500 or 1000+ over, but I have been guilty of trying to force a round peg in a square hole in terms of towing and true to form 200-300lb more hitch weight and stresses of WD mounted to the back created stresses the vehicle was not designed to take and I did wear out body bushing like air back there, even with a full boxed frame. Which is when I finally followed my own suggestion when it comes to tools...having the correct tool for the job makes all the difference. I now have a 3/4 ton light truck, and about 45k towing miles out of the 55k on the clock. No popped body mounts, not shock mount failures, no control arm bushing prematurely wearing.

So yes, there is clearly some flex built in but not a lot, and I have seen accident investigations as my cousin does that kind of work. It is true that a torn about rig is not going to be weighed, but low hanging fruit...type of TV, pull blackbox info...how fast, brakes, throttle position, etc, weight of the trailer, rating of the TV and known weights to see if they jive, but even if the answers are somewhat vague you and I both know if there is any money in it, vague has never stopped an ambulance chaser.
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:17 PM   #15
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The one thing that has always been a little fuzzy to me when discussing payload ratings is the effect of tires; the door jamb sticker states that the payload is calculated on XXX tire, usually a P rated tire. What does upgrading to a higher rated tire do to the calculations. e.g., a Load Range E rated tire?

Does this materially affect the payload capacity?
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:37 PM   #16
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The one thing that has always been a little fuzzy to me when discussing payload ratings is the effect of tires; the door jamb sticker states that the payload is calculated on XXX tire, usually a P rated tire. What does upgrading to a higher rated tire do to the calculations. e.g., a Load Range E rated tire?

Does this materially affect the payload capacity?
This is a great question. And the answer is absolutely.

Part of any cars specification and validation is the factory fitted tires. Along with associated inflation pressure typically documented on the door jamb placard. The fitted tires and pressure can certainly be the limiting factor that dictates payload, as the OEM seeks the balance of performance, NVH, or whatever else that may have dictated the fitted tires. The tire selection and inflation pressure itself can often be a balance of those qualities and gross vehicle weight rating.

So yes, if the limiting factor had been tires, upgrading to a LR-E tire can potentially expand capacity. So can increasing stock inflation pressure (which is never a bad idea anyways for more stability). But one should be cognizant and analyze potential other constraints including GAWR, suspension, etc., to understand what is another or next bottleneck or constraint.

Again...not touching the can of worms that is regulation.
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Old 04-27-2021, 02:24 PM   #17
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How much of a margin of error or safety margin do vehicle engineers factor into their payload maximum decisions?

If a tow vehicle's maximum payload is, say, 1500 pounds, does that mean by exceeding that maximum by an additional 50 pounds will cause significant harm to the vehicle or cause imminent or premature failure of components? What about 500 pounds over?

Knowing that some vehicle users might overload a vehicle at some point... either accidentally or intentionally... I would think that engineers would factor in an undisclosed margin for error, just to compensate for potential overloading.

If so, what would that percentage be? I wonder how many people are being overly stressed out about being a couple hundred pounds over the maximum payload listed during the few times a year they tow their trailer?

Always an interesting discussion.

First, I want to agree with two of pteck's points. One was about these being complex systems, and us not knowing all the variables, and the other was to not address the regulatory issues, because IMO those are less related to design and safety.

It isn't a margin of error. That typically refers to sampling errors in statistics. A margin of error is like a confidence level. I guess that load is 2000 lbs.
I might be off by 200. Or 500. That is a margin of error. What you are referring to is a design safety factor. It helps to consider why a safety factor is applied, and often at multiple points in the design process.

Starting points for safety factors may be something like 10%, but if applied at every point of the design process, that can lead to compounded safety factors. If you make it so strong that it is too heavy, and too expensive, you won't sell many. It is a balancing act.

Let's agree that for purposes of the discussion, useful payload is GVWR less scale weight of the (unladen) vehicle. Some published payloads will be different than that, because they are reduced due to physical constraints as to where the load can be carried on the vehicle. My current vehicle has a published payload for each of the front trunk, the rear trunk, and the under floor cargo area. These limits are due to the strength of the compartments, not the vehicle. Because published vehicle payload figures are often limited based on where the load can physically be applied, these published payload limits are less relevant when one is using WD equipment. A more realistic load limit is to consider the front and rear axle ratings. These are structural design ratings.

Now, axles. Each of the axles has a load rating. Together, they typically add up to more than the GVWR. This is because the designer doesn't know if you are going to put more of the cargo toward the front axle, or the rear axle. A label I just looked at for an Ford pickup had a 5200 lb front axle, a 6100 lb rear axle, for a total of 11,300 lbs. But the GVWR is 10,000 so there is a 13% safety factor included just there. The vehicle structure is designed to be sufficiently strong to handle the maximum axle load at each end, before we get to structural safety factors, so it is fine to 11,300 per the designers.

Now, tires. That same truck has stock LT tires that are rated at 3200 lbs each at a specified pressure. More than required for the axle ratings. Partly because the designers didn't know if the owner was going to bias the cargo towards the right, the left, or put it exactly on the vehicle centreline. This is a compounded safety factor.

Now, dynamic loading, which was mentioned above. It is already considered. The designers didn't think that those ratings were only for static conditions. That said, if there are large whoop de doos in the road, slowing down is a good idea. That will reduce dynamic loads on the components. Also, consider the benefits of WD equipment, which can reduce porpoising, essentially damping out the effects of some of the variable dynamic loading.

Now, powertrain and brake loading, also mentioned above. Consider that the designers publish a maximum unbraked trailer load limit. Often it is around 1600 or 2000 lbs. They have designed the vehicle to pull that load, and to stop it without any trailer brakes. The powertrain and brakes don't know if that extra 2000 lbs is in the truck bed, or on the hitch. They have to work just as hard, either way. So being concerned about going 1000 lbs over rated load, due to powertrain and brake limitations, doesn't make sense. And the easy answer is, slow down a bit, and leave a bit more following distance. I once pulled a parade float with an X5. The loaded trailer was potentially double the vehicle tow rating (I didn't weigh it, but I mentally added up the empty trailer, the 15 people waving, the band, etc). I went very slowly. I did not lose any sleep over it.

Now, ratings. What does changing a component do to the manufacturer's rating? Nothing. It certainly may increase the capability, but not the rating. Another way of thinking of it is that it increases the safety margin. If I am at risk of tire overload, due to operating conditions and ambient temperature, I can install alternate tires. It doesn't change the vehicle rating, but it reduces the risk of failure.

As to people being overly stressed over being a few pounds over a nominal payload rating, yes, that happens frequently. The total system/package needs to be considered, not just a door jamb number. That isn't a recommendation to ignore it, but it is a starting point, not the end point.
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Old 04-27-2021, 05:12 PM   #18
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This thread with its focus on engineering and the extra effort to avoid the ‘regulation’ side of things is probably the most refreshing thread on this topic I have seen on this site. I imagine that a lot of the borderline flame wars over tow vehicles are the mismatch between the engineering point of view trying to improve the system and what (coming from an engineering point of view) almost feels like baiting trolls with the focus on regulation/door stickers.

@jcl’s post above is extremely informed and well reasoned.

(sorry for the short hijack/meta commentary, now back to our regular program :-))
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Old 04-27-2021, 06:01 PM   #19
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I agree with mtbackpacker - jcl nailed it.

Case in point: I tow with a 1 ton SWR truck. Well technically, it's a 3/4 ton designation. The only mechanical difference that drives an additional 800lbs of payload for the 1-ton cousin are the tires and and 2 additional leafs in the rear spring pack. That's it. Everything else is absolutely identical from an engineering and build perspective. Brakes, axles, trans, drive line, frame / chassis, motor, interior finishings, etc, etc...

Change tires & add a leaf or air bags for additional spring rate and support and you have a 1-ton. Just not labeled / rated that way on the door sticker. Perfect example of capability vs rating.

I knew this when I bought the truck. I wanted the capabilities / engineering of a 1-ton with the softer springs for some small improvements in ride comfort. The vehicle is very much over engineered as evidenced by its 800lbs + payload 1-ton bredren.
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Old 04-27-2021, 07:27 PM   #20
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