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Old 10-21-2020, 06:03 AM   #81
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Tow rating of 2000 lb in Europe. 0 in the US. May be something to do with lawyers, rather than with vehicle capability as delivered by the manufacturer. And that tow rating is for the 2000 lb hitch that Tesla offers, not a WD hitch which Tesla doesn't offer.

The more relevant limits here are tire and axle loads.

We have a published total payload limit on our Model Y. And a separate limit for the frunk. And a separate limit for the rear cargo shelf (trunk floor). The payload can be impacted by something as simple as the strength of the floor where a person may put that weight.

The Superchargers we use often have an end stall that you can pull through. Not always. Accommodating larger vehicles is coming; Tesla is deploying larger Supercharger stalls in preparation for the Cybertruck.
Just to note that in the EU, from what I can tell, the speed limit for such a set up is typically 50 mph. That might have something to do with the towing number in EU versus north america.
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Old 10-21-2020, 07:17 AM   #82
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Towing speed is a significant factor indeed, arguably as significant or more is the very different designs of caravans for the EU market which concentrates mass near the axles to improve sway stability with very low tongue weights. Allows smaller vehicles to safely pull heavier loads.
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:57 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
Tow rating of 2000 lb in Europe. 0 in the US. May be something to do with lawyers, rather than with vehicle capability as delivered by the manufacturer. And that tow rating is for the 2000 lb hitch that Tesla offers, not a WD hitch which Tesla doesn't offer.

The more relevant limits here are tire and axle loads.

We have a published total payload limit on our Model Y. And a separate limit for the frunk. And a separate limit for the rear cargo shelf (trunk floor). The payload can be impacted by something as simple as the strength of the floor where a person may put that weight.

The Superchargers we use often have an end stall that you can pull through. Not always. Accommodating larger vehicles is coming; Tesla is deploying larger Supercharger stalls in preparation for the Cybertruck.


Thanks jcl, just some more musings here:

The European Model 3 has #2000 tow rating. With a factory installed hitch. And for clarification, by factory installed hitch I think we mean the square hitch receiver mounted to the back of the vehicle. Its a place to attach what ever hitch your going to use, 2" ball, 2 15/16" ball (or the Canadian metric versions), pental hook, or a ProPride stinger.

A WD hitch, is an after-market system of various designs, that is mounted largely, on the trailer itself. I'm pretty sure no OEM, Tesla or otherwise, offers a WD hitch. I've never heard of a WD system that is built into the TV mounted receiver, but maybe I missed that?

It's always been my understanding in years of RVing, that a WD hitch helps spread the tongue weight of the TT to both axels of the TV. It's also my understanding that a WD system does NOT increase the tow rating of the TV nor does it increase the payload rating of the TV. It just spreads the load out. Right?

#2000 tow rating for a Model 3 seems reasonable, but its a long way from #7000! And the tongue weight of the Tommy on the CanAm M3 is at or near max payload.

So again, are payload and tow ratings largely meaningless?

It's mostly academic to me, I'm not looking to tow my 30'er with my M3. As a contractor, I've always been a truck guy so our TT with a 2500 diesel is well within specs. Even if those specs are meaningless

Now as for the Cybertruck, , but the current one is paid for.
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:45 AM   #84
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Towing speed is a significant factor indeed, arguably as significant or more is the very different designs of caravans for the EU market which concentrates mass near the axles to improve sway stability with very low tongue weights. Allows smaller vehicles to safely pull heavier loads.
Hi Brian

I have towed several European trailers they are definitely not more stable. In fact they are very unstable. The only thing that saves them is they generally have very stable tow vehicles and low operating speeds. In the late 60's weight distribution hitches and electric brakes were outlawed in Europe as a protectionist measure. That ridiculous law that is still on books which greatly limits the safety and control with European trailers.
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:57 AM   #85
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That ridiculous law in European was written to prevent normal people from towing anything larger than a very small camper, or pulling a box trailer. To further hamper them, the design of the ball is meant to fail if the tongue weight is too high. It just bends and lets go!

As well, when camping, you can't have a blank and grey tank. All Eu trailers must have a cassette system. Unfortunately they are meant to be able to carried thus don't hold much. care to empty it each time 1 person shower's or you do 1 load of dishes.

There was excessive influence on the law makers from many industries that felt that they would lose money if people could camp like we do in NA

they did something dumb for table saw to prevent people from making much furniture at home. The dado blade is illegal and the shaft on EU table saws is only big enough for a single blade.

The EU did some goods things, but they also did some bad thigs. These are but three bad examples
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Old 10-21-2020, 12:07 PM   #86
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Just to note that in the EU, from what I can tell, the speed limit for such a set up is typically 50 mph. That might have something to do with the towing number in EU versus north america.
80 km/hr (50 mph) on some roads and with some trailers.

100 km/hr (approx 65 mph) on some roads and with some trailers (also permitted if your vehicle and trailer is inspected by TUV
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Old 10-21-2020, 12:33 PM   #87
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Thanks jcl, just some more musings here:

The European Model 3 has #2000 tow rating. With a factory installed hitch. And for clarification, by factory installed hitch I think we mean the square hitch receiver mounted to the back of the vehicle. Its a place to attach what ever hitch your going to use, 2" ball, 2 15/16" ball (or the Canadian metric versions), pental hook, or a ProPride stinger.

A WD hitch, is an after-market system of various designs, that is mounted largely, on the trailer itself. I'm pretty sure no OEM, Tesla or otherwise, offers a WD hitch. I've never heard of a WD system that is built into the TV mounted receiver, but maybe I missed that?

It's always been my understanding in years of RVing, that a WD hitch helps spread the tongue weight of the TT to both axels of the TV. It's also my understanding that a WD system does NOT increase the tow rating of the TV nor does it increase the payload rating of the TV. It just spreads the load out. Right?

#2000 tow rating for a Model 3 seems reasonable, but its a long way from #7000! And the tongue weight of the Tommy on the CanAm M3 is at or near max payload.

So again, are payload and tow ratings largely meaningless?

It's mostly academic to me, I'm not looking to tow my 30'er with my M3. As a contractor, I've always been a truck guy so our TT with a 2500 diesel is well within specs. Even if those specs are meaningless

Now as for the Cybertruck, , but the current one is paid for.
No, the square 2" receiver is not offered in Europe. The Tesla hitch is a detachable "swan neck" that plugs in to a socket, with an integrated 50 mm ball. That is why there is no potential to use WD, apart from any strength issues with the stock mount for the detachable tow bar. And additional issues with the lack of attachment locations for safety chains with the detachable tow bar.

The use of WD equipment, properly configured, can increase the capability of the tow vehicle with respect to trailer weights, etc. It doesn't change the manufacturer rating, since the manufacturer rating is without WD in many cases. The rating is for the vehicle as sold by the manufacturer. Manufacturers are very wary about things that they don't control. It causes them to be ever more cautious. Note that some towing experts have published that 90% of WD hitches are not set up optimally. Why would a manufacturer want to wade into that situation? Easier for them to say "don't do this" and call it a day.

Published payload is not particularly relevant to towing, as discussed here and in other threads. Tire and axle loads with respect to their ratings are very relevant.

I think that when looking at vehicle ratings, it is a mistake to consider all ratings as "ratings" or legal limits. The tire and axle ratings relate to FMVSS standards, and matter a lot to me. They are pretty much universal. GVWR matters (legally) if you are a commercial carrier, as it is regulated by the authorities who regulate commercial carriers, can impact vehicle taxes, and impacts the licenses of those operating commercial vehicles. Tow ratings are less precise, and while I wouldn't say they don't matter at all, it is important to understand the context for them. If you have a hitch receiver rated for 3500 lbs trailer weight mounted by a manufacturer, then that is the rating of that hitch receiver. But when did that become the reasonable capability of the vehicle? It may be a very similar number, or it may be that the manufacturer specified a lighter duty receiver for other reasons, not at all related to the capability of the vehicle. This becomes very obvious when you look at tow ratings for vehicles sold in multiple markets. One market offers a hitch, the next one offers a derated hitch, and the third market advises purchasers that "this vehicle is not designed to tow" and that you shouldn't do it under any circumstances. This for the same vehicle built in the same factory. They don't do this with tire ratings, or axle ratings. It is confined to the tow rating.

I often think that hitch ratings are similar in many ways to roof rack ratings. I have had several vehicles with notes in the owners manual about not putting more than 75 lbs on the factory roof rack. Fair enough. But if I want to carry more than that, and I purchase a stronger aftermarket roof rack, and operate the vehicle with consideration of the higher load mounted fairly far off the ground (eg potentially less stable handling at the limits, and other impacts) then is it a time bomb endangering other road users? Will the unibody be crushed because it can't handle the loads? Not if the new roof rack is properly designed and installed. This use would never be condoned by the vehicle manufacturer, because they have no experience with it. But that doesn't mean it is impossible to do it safely.

Your Model 3 has no tow rating in the US. My Model Y has a 3500 lb tow rating. For the factory hitch. Same powertrain. Same chassis. Some differences in the vehicle. So, while my 3500 lb rating doesn't apply to your vehicle, it does provide some insight into whether the base vehicle is capable of towing, apart from the manufacturer's rating or lack of it, even before Andy proved that it is.

When I started ordered my Model Y, the owner's manual said "this vehicle is not designed for towing". OK, but it was a good bet that they were going to come out with a tow hitch. They did. I ordered one with a factory hitch. They updated the owner's manual. They also offered a retrofit kit. Some would hang their hat on the original info that this vehicle wasn't designed to tow. In reality, the manufacturer had not tested it yet, and so couldn't guarantee yet that it could, but turns out it can. They didn't redesign the car. They just updated the options and the owner's manual. We had a lack of proof that it could tow, not proof that it couldn't tow. Those two are quite different.
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Old 10-21-2020, 07:49 PM   #88
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Hi Brian

I have towed several European trailers they are definitely not more stable. In fact they are very unstable. The only thing that saves them is they generally have very stable tow vehicles and low operating speeds. In the late 60's weight distribution hitches and electric brakes were outlawed in Europe as a protectionist measure. That ridiculous law that is still on books which greatly limits the safety and control with European trailers.
Quite honestly, Andy your definition of stability confuses me, perhaps you can enlighten me.
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Old 10-22-2020, 04:22 AM   #89
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Quite honestly, Andy your definition of stability confuses me, perhaps you can enlighten me.

Hi Brian
If you drove one of our combinations you would understand immediately. Since that isnít possible I usually find it easier to answer these sorts of questions by relating the answer to your experience.

What vehicles have you owned in the last 10 years?

What trailers have you owned?

Which hitch systems have you used?
Do you have any race track experience. Lap days auto slalom etc?

What is your professional background?

Thanks

Andy
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Old 10-22-2020, 05:49 AM   #90
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Andy I appreciate the reply. I have read many of your articles and watched the videos your folks have produced and together with my own amateur experience at the track throughout the years I think I have a good idea what I would experience if you were to show me your facility and had me drive your combinations. I have no doubt they drive, handle and feel impressive for the full range of driving tests we might go through. I am also aware that the same combination won't perform well and won't feel so nice if it is not set up correctly. I am now confident we use the word in two different contexts, as I suspected. I will redouble my efforts to be as precise as I can be to differentiate handing performance from the risk of loss of control.
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:18 PM   #91
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Hi Brian
If you drove one of our combinations you would understand immediately. Since that isnít possible I usually find it easier to answer these sorts of questions by relating the answer to your experience.

What vehicles have you owned in the last 10 years?

What trailers have you owned?

Which hitch systems have you used?
Do you have any race track experience. Lap days auto slalom etc?

What is your professional background?

Thanks

Andy
Hi Andy,

I have seen some of your articles/videos but not all I am sure. Mostly what I have seen is horizontal loading such as slalom. Do you test with vertical loads as well? Whoop de doo type of surface profile? That is something that is fairly common on highways here in the US, particularly where they use concrete instead of asphalt. Thank you.
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Old 10-28-2020, 05:09 AM   #92
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Hi Andy,



I have seen some of your articles/videos but not all I am sure. Mostly what I have seen is horizontal loading such as slalom. Do you test with vertical loads as well? Whoop de doo type of surface profile? That is something that is fairly common on highways here in the US, particularly where they use concrete instead of asphalt. Thank you.


You donít know ďWhoop de doĒ until you have driven over Canadian frost heaves. Itís when youíre on rough surfaces that independent suspension and a low centre of gravity really shines.
If you watch the Chrysler 300 video one minute in. There is a .44 G sweeping turn off new asphalt into old over a sharp lip. The old pavement is rough and broken with grass growing up through it then back up onto the new pavement.

https://www.canamrv.ca/towing-expertise/videos/
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Old 10-28-2020, 09:28 PM   #93
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Lastly, did you guys make up a charge extension cable? Out here, nearly every SuperCharger station in CA/NV/OR is a back in only. You'd have to unhook every time you stop to charge.
As you note, nearly all Supercharger stalls are back in, but most Supercharger locations have one pull-in stall. That doesn't mean you can pull in with a camper, though. In most cases, you can't. It's the exception, not the rule.

We just returned from a 3700 mile trip through California, Nevada, Utah, and Arizona, and had to unhitch to charge 4 times out of 5 when traveling. Of course, at the RV parks, we were already unhitched, so we just charged overnight at the 50 amp.

We have a Model X and use weight distribution. @jcl mentions that you cannot do this with the stock Bosal adapter, and that's correct. Mine deformed on a long trip when I initially tried it with my Equal-i-zer. I have subsequently installed a Draw-Tite aftermarket hitch, which is welded and works well with weight distribution. I purchased a new X before this last trip and installed the Draw-Tite immediately upon delivery. It's a much better solution for heavier towing.
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Old 10-31-2020, 05:05 AM   #94
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Thanks for the information on the draw tite. We have not installed one yet.

I think here the Supercharger stations are newer so most have a pull in or two. At the rest Iíve been able to pull in from the end and only block a couple of stalls. So I have yet to unhook to charge. It only takes 5 minutes if I had to. A fast Jack helps.

If youíre still using the Equalizer brand hitch I would suggest changing to one with tapered bars. They will be much easier on the receiver. If you like we can build you a welded ball mount which reduces overhang for even more stability and less receiver stress. This picture is a welded ball mount with tapered bars. Click image for larger version

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Old 11-11-2020, 10:31 AM   #95
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The folks at Truck King did a follow up video, based on the number of questions they received in response to their first video on towing with the Model 3

Questions asked include whether the combination is legal, what the insurance implications are, how are Superchargers working, and so on.

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Old 11-11-2020, 02:01 PM   #96
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"who knows sometimes with the law". Well, that is reassuring!
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Old 11-11-2020, 11:42 PM   #97
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The folks at Truck King did a follow up video, based on the number of questions they received in response to their first video on towing with the Model 3

Questions asked include whether the combination is legal, what the insurance implications are, how are Superchargers working, and so on.

Way to Go Andy!
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Old 11-12-2020, 04:10 PM   #98
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"who knows sometimes with the law". Well, that is reassuring!
As I was saying that I realized the rest of that story was going to be far too long for that video.
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Old 11-12-2020, 04:18 PM   #99
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As I was saying that I realized the rest of that story was going to be far too long for that video.
If someone wants to cherry pick a quote, you can't help that. I took it as "I am not a lawyer, and don't play one on tv...."

The rest of the explanation made sense to me. Good job.

On a side note, I was looking at an (aftermarket) Tesla charging extension cable on line this week. 20 feet. Could solve some of the access issues at Superchargers if it works well.

Really happy to see you experiment with this combination. The learnings are invaluable for the community.

Jeff
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Old 11-12-2020, 04:23 PM   #100
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As I was saying that I realized the rest of that story was going to be far too long for that video.
What that quote tells me is that you do not know, or you aren't sure. Neither is comforting. If the answer is "no" then you say "no", or at least "not as far as I have uncovered in my research".
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