Nissan Frontier as a tow vehicle?

[wotocho]

We're taking the plunge and possibly buying a twin axel 1975 23ft Safari (dry weight 3465 lbs, tongue weight 570lb). Yeah! Putting the horse ahead of the cart since we don't have a tow vehicle capable of pulling the trailer. We currently have a 2000 manual transmission Xterra which we like so we're looking at the Nissan Frontier 4x4 crew cab to satisfy our day to day needs as well as a tow vehicle. Reading the forum, most recommend a 15-20% leeway in tow capacity. A few questions in trying to determine if the Frontier fits the bill. The Gross Combined Vehicle weight is 11,000 lbs and the Gross Vehicle Weight Rate is 5600 lbs. The tow capacity is 6100 lb. The wheel base of the Frontier is 126 inches.
What is your typical weight of your trailer's contents (water, food, accessories etc) for a family of three? We've been told about 1000 lbs.
What is the typical tongue weight? We have read between 10 % & 15% of the loaded trailer weight and information on older model Airstreams indicate the tongue weight is 570 lbs, they are both similar figures but which is "more" accurate?
Considering toys, people, options on the vehicle, tongue weight and a trailer payload of 750 lbs we would exceed the tow vehicle payload by approximately 100lb, the GVWR by 100 lbs but not the GCWR. Does the weight distribution hitch help reduce the effective vehicle payload by distributing hitch load over all axels in the combined unit?
Our reserve tow capacity would be about 9% or 500 lbs. Is that cutting it too fine?

Any feedback from experienced travelers is appreciated.

[overlander63]

Welcome to the forums!
9% is a bit close, but depending on where and how you tow, and how much stuff you bring with you, it should be acceptable until trade-in time.

[nickcrowhurst]

Welcome to the forum! It's good to see you've done some preliminary study of this important and complex issue. If you've not already done so, I suggest you type "nissan frontier" in the search box at the top of the screen, and scan through the 13 threads which mention this vehicle.
To have a stab at some of your points:
1. The tongue weight will depend on where in the trailer you stow heavy weights. If you place spare tools, spare parts, and gallons of anti-freeze under the front couch (as I do), the tongue weight will be increased. Full or empty LP tanks will vary it by 60 pounds. In doing your calculations you should go for a high figure, to give a safety margin.
2. For two of us, with a full fresh water tank and food for a week, our payload quickly climbs to 1400 pounds, our limit.
3. A load distribution hitch changes the ground reaction forces at each axle. Without a WD hitch, there is a high ground reaction force at the rear axle of the tow vehicle. When the WD bars are tensioned, some of this force is transferred to the front axle of the tow vehicle, and some to the trailer axle(s). The WD hitch is a device to assist in the safe towing of a trailer by restoring the ground reaction force at the front steering axle of the tow vehicle to its designed level, not a device to enable heavier trailers to be pulled by a given tow vehicle. So my answer to that question is "no".If you want to look at some of the physics involved, try clicking on
http://www.airforums.com/forum...sis-19236.html?
(4) I have no knowledge of this vehicle, but from the figures you have supplied I would suggest you are too close to the manufacturers recommended limits for this combination. Mind you, I'm a boring old risk-averse rock-climber and solo sea-kayaker.....
Nick.

[Frank S]

Hi wotocho--Our 1973 27' Overlander has a listed dry weight of 4545lbs, with a listed tongue weight of 515lbs. Wet and loaded it weighs 6400lbs, on the axles. This would bring the total travel weight to 7000 to 7200lbs. Doing a little extrapolating your 23'er should be about 1000lbs less, or 6000 to 6200lbs, just at the tow capacity you mention for the Nissan. You might be able to increase the tow capacity of the Nissan to an acceptable level with a larger engine, larger numerical rear end, and larger tires, than you are considering. I am not familiar with the capabilities of the Nissan. The Chevy required to do the job (which I am familiar with) would be a 1/2 ton with a 5.3ltr engine and a 3.73 rear (4.10 would be better). You have a few mountains in your part of the world--a bigger T/V is always better. Glad to see you are considering A/S'ing. You're going to love it.--Frank S

[scottanlily]

Hello wotocho,

I think that the frontier may be abit small ,many manafacturers put a high
tow rating on there vehicals ,and just because it can pull it doesn't mean
it should.You would be better off with the titan with the v8 as opposed to a
v6 for sure .Once your loaded up and hitting a good grade ,you will find out how small a v6 is pretty quick .Somthing to consider for certain is the
grades and power available to get up them ,and i don't mean at 75mph
either ,just capable even if doing 50 to 60 ,where the engine is not begging
for mercy .

Scott of scottanlily

[AZstreamin]

Its time to sell the Frontier.......You live in a beautiful place and there are a lot of great mountain destinations to explore right in your backyard! It will be painful to travel those passes in a barely capable tow vehicle at max load... Do yourself a favor and make the travel experience more pleasurable. Get a more robust tow vehicle.... The Titans are nice if you like Nissan.. the Toyota Tundra is also real nice.. I really like my PSD F250.. You may not need that much tow vehicle for the AS you’re considering but definitely build it in your plans to upgrade the tow vehicle there are lots of good deals on trucks these days... Good Luck.. Safe travels, Welcome to the community and Happy Airstreamin'

[moosetags]

Welcome to the Forums. Please consider the advice given on the Forums very carefully. A tow vehcle not up to the job can make Airstreaming less than fun. A marginally capable tow vehicle can turn a great trip into a "white knuckle" driving experience.

[bradk]

By the towing capacity, I'm assuming the Frontier is an 05' or newer with the 270hp V6.

Just by comparison, I tow a 19' Bambi (Dry 3600 (ish), wet 5000), tongue weight is 510 (w/o) tanks, assuming 600 with tanks, with an 05' Pathfinder and have had zero issues with weight, sway, white knuckles, or anything else.

I've pulled the bambi over 6-7000 foot passes regularly and not had a problem. In fact, even on an 8% grade I did not drop below 80kph. I see you're from BC, I towed from Fernie to Kelowna through the Crowsnest Pass.

Looking at the weights, you should be fine in what you have as long as you're not taking everything with you. We tend to buy food at the destination vs. lugging it around. The only concern would be the length of the trailer I would imagine. I would think you would be ok, but defintely take it for a test tow before purchasing.

I would agree, take heed to the advise that you'll receive on this topic but also have a grain of salt handy. Be sure to discern between advise and biased opinion.

cheers and 0.02,
brad.

[Condoluminum]

Since you are thinking of buying a Frontier specifically as a tow vehicle, I'd join crowd in favor of larger Titan truck. The Frontier is really more of a compact pickup, like Ford Ranger or Toyota Sequoia, and not really up to hauling heavy trailer on freeways and up and down hills.. The Frontier might work to get a boat down to local boat launch ramp, but if you plan to do any longer trips with Airstream, the heavier half-ton full size pickup would be better bet.. If price is a problem it's worth looking to try and find a slightly used one for same price as new Frontier...

John McG

[kevino]

I'll chime in with a suggestion for the Titan if you're going to stick with a Nissan.

I've got a 2004 Titan LE Crew Cab 4x4 with the big tow package that I tow an '05 25' Safari SS with. It does a fine job.

You might be a little close with a Frontier.

[SafeHarbor]

I probably shouldn't tell this one in this thread, but after reading about various trucks on the forum, I actually got behind a Nissan Titan in traffic in my Cummins Dodge Ram. Okay, I thought, you're the full sized truck from Nissan that folks are talking about.

So I pulled the Ram a little closer, and a little closer. Then I discovered that the width of the Titan was somewhat similar to the raised portion of my truck's hood.

Then I looked up at the backlight . . .

And I wondered if the Titan is full sized, what the heck is my Dodge?

Lamar

[scottanlily]

Heloo everyone ,

Let me just say that anyone that has towed with a small truck like the
pathfinder or frontier and has had an experience other than a good one
clearly will realize what people mean when they say to get a tv with
the capability to handle all situations .It is not just towing your trailer up
the passes at 85 mph and showing everyone it can be done .there is more to it than that .I tow a 24ft trdwnd 1960 with my 68 travelall which is one of the most heaviest duty trucks ever built ,it can pull whatever it wants ,
has a fuller truck 5 speed trans and 4 wheel drive ,heavy duty axles and so
on .I know the trailer is back there when towing ,tows great ,but it can
stop it ,and control it and the trailer does not control the tv .I don't like the term of bias ,as in meaning one way thinking only ,its about the experience
and knowing what the vehical is capable of doing.

Scott

[bradk]

Scott,

I don't mean to hijack the thread but you're post highlights the crux of this ongoing discussion in 100's of these posts. My thoughts below is meant as a general statement, not directed at you specifically. Read into it as you may.

First off, I would like to hear of someone or point me to a post of someone who has had a bad experience in either of these vehicles (Pathfinder or Frontier) limited to the 05 and above models. To date, I have not heard of anyone.

Secondly, ANY vehicle that is improperly matched to a trailer can have a negative experience, whether it is a megacab duallie or a 1979 S10. The question afoot is whether or not the Frontier can properly tow the trailer in question. By the numbers and experience of other towers (myself included), in my opinion, he can do it. I feel this way because the identical drivetrain/frame/etc is in my vehicle and my trailer has the same weights. Is it the absolute optimum vehicle? No. Is it a good match? Yes.

Thirdly, the only reason that you know that you're tow vehicle can handle the trailer is probably because you haven't towed yourself into a situation that your vehicle (or any vehicle) could not handle. The truth, you don't know where the upper limit of your combo is. It's sort of that unanswerable question, what is the limit that I can push to? That is why there are "recommended limits" on vehicles and their capabilities. I would not exceed them but there is no tangible reason why you need to stay 20% under those limitations in order to be safe.

Anything can happen on the road, you take a risk everytime you hop behind the wheel. A big truck, in my opinion, doesn't buy you extra safety against the intangibles. That said, when towing safely, we are often mistaken for a pilon on a busy highway. You always have to drive defensively and be thinking ahead with a twinkie on the hitch. I have completed a good chunk of my pilot training and the key phrase when flying is "always have a back door if you get into trouble". The same applies to towing. I would think that if your back door is a bigger TV, you're looking at the situation wrong.

ramblings and more penny thoughts,
brad.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by SafeHarbor

Then I looked up at the backlight . . .

And I wondered if the Titan is full sized, what the heck is my Dodge?

????

[scottanlily]

Hello Bradk , point taken on part of your post. I have been in a couple of sticky situations with my tv and trailer .Thank goodness that I did
have a setup that could handle the situations .You are right as there is no
real limit to really know when you can get out of control ,but I have a combo
that is matched well .i can go down donner summit as I have with the travelall in 3rd gear ,not having to use the brakes much at all .it is a long
steep grade going down the mountain for many miles. My tv is a heavy
1/2 ton ,not an f250 diesel crewcab either ,runs a 392 gas engine.I think
anyone that is posting a message on the merits of a well matched tv is
only considering safety first and really the combination of the vehical
and the trailer and the ability of the setup to be as safe as can be
in any situation .I am more concerned with that than factor overall.
I disagree with you on your last paragraph ,I am looking at the situation
correctly as many here are ,the tv needs to be capable in many ways
possible to handle the trailer .I don't see towing an airstream having anything
to do with flying an airplane in the sky. a matched towing setup is the point
thats is why many say a bigger tv ,but you don't need an f250 to tow a bambi either, I think for a 23ft trailer the frontier is at the limit right off the bat ,the larger size of the tv definately helps in the handling and stability .


Scott

[BillTex]

Very well said. I found out myself that towing near the 85% rule does not make for happpy towing.
Can it be done? Yes!
Is it for me? NO!
I refuse to compromise my families safety. If we are going to RV, then we will do it safely (and in style!).
Matching your TV to your camper is fine; a 1/2 ton and a Bambi is cool. Pushing the limits with a longer, heavier trailer is not.
I have yet to see anyone complain about having too much TV.

And to the original poster; beware of "bias opinions". It is very easy to research someones profile and get a good idea of how long they have been towing and a good idea of how many miles they have under their tires...not just someone trying to defend their choice of TV.
There is a wealth of info from some experienced folks on this board-I am trying to learn some of it!

[bradk]

Well, I knew I was going to take heat for it.

Scott, on the last paragraph, there is no relationship between flying and towing nor did I infer any. What I said was, in flying we always have a back door plan if trouble arises. With towing, if you're coming to a narrow bridge, a semi-truck on one side of it oncoming and you're going to pass them on that bridge, the back door is that you slow to let the truck across to avoid the potential for problems. My original post mentioned that the length of the trailer may be an issue for the Frontier but from a safety perspective on weights, it's relatively well matched based on my experience. I don't have 25 years of towing under my belt but I do understand the relationship between my vehicle and my trailer better than anyone I would suggest.

Bill, a biased opinion is seldom seperable from an informed one on an internet chat board. The warning is meant to to be aware that you will get both. I certainly wouldn't point the finger at anyone here, but we both know they're out there, regardless of motivation. I definitely don't disagree that you can't have too much tow vehicle but there is a point of diminishing returns. The original poster asked if the stated combo would work.

brad.

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by bradk

I definitely don't disagree that you can't have too much tow vehicle but there is a point of diminishing returns. The original poster asked if the stated combo would work.

brad.

Not so sure about diminishing returns. We are talking about facts; stated vehicle tow ratings, wheel base, trailer weights and lengths.

"Would it work"?
If he means; can his vehicle get that load to move? Yes I am sure it can move it.
Do you want to put your family, your camper, and much other stuff in a vehicle, loaded up to its max capacity and drive all over the country?
And enjoy it?
And not endanger your family and others on the road?

I think the answer is clear...

[SafeHarbor]

The PO of my Excella had it wieghed a few years ago. With fuel fuel and water tank only and their stuff, it was 5,550 lbs. I towed it from Grand Rapids, to Cleveland, to Jacksonville, FL. with a '93 Dodge Dakota. The truck had the 235 hp V8 engine, 4.10 rear, and trailer towing package (trans and power steering coolers, upgraded transmission, 5-bladed fan, upgraded shocks, steel wheels, HD shocks) and a 1-ton payload. The towing limits were 7200 lbs and 750 with a WD hitch. The truck weighed 4,350 lbs with full fuel.

The trailer pulled fine as long as it was level. Climibing hills in Appalachia was grueling - 3500 rpm at 50 mph in third with everybody zooming by.

The braking power of the truck wasn't great either. I once seriously thought I was going to rear-end another motorist in Cleveland. I actually managed to skid all four wheels before I got it stopped - inches away from the guy that pulled out in front of me and then stopped to make a left-hand turn. (I guess he didn't see me coming, or he looked and it just didn't compute to him.)

I was towing at 77% of the truck's advertised capacity.

I also had trouble with a very unpleasant effect of the "tail wagging the dog" when big trucks passed, and I wished for a bigger, heavier truck.

And this was a midsized truck ordered for the specific purpose of towing my Argosy.

Now how much of my experience may be like towing with a Frontier?

You have already crunched the numbers, but will it have the stance, tire contact area, wheelbase, and pure old mass to control the trailer? Will it have the BRAKES to haul the combo down in an emergency situation?

If any hill climbing is to be done, you might also look at the speed in gears. My Dakota really needed another gear between third and overdrive. In third, it was WAY up in the powerband - too high.

If you're over the truck's stated capacities starting out, that can be only be described as dangerous. I'd say don't do it. Get a full sized truck instead.

As BillTex said above, nobody ever complains about having too much TV.

Lamar

[nickcrowhurst]

My fundamental concern about the manufacturer's recommended maximum trailer weight is simply that it is the "manufacturer's" figure.

Now let me see....... out of all the billions of human beings on this planet, who is the one deperate for the latest 2007 model to have "the highest towing capability of any in its class"?? Could it be the CEO of the manufacturing company?? Hmmmmm..........

Can we imagine the conversations that take place between the Vice-President of marketing and the Vice-President of engineering and the CEO when the capabilities of the 2007 model are discussed?

Are these figures subject to independent audit in the USA? I don't know. I hope they are. I suspect thay may not be.

I can only say that I have tried to drive one USA vehicle while towing a trailer at its maximum permitted load, complete with WD bars properly adjusted, and a sway control friction device. This was a Jeep Cherokee 4.0 towing a 5000 pound Airstream for one mile on a flat highway. I could not travel safely at over 25 mph. It was a death trap, but it was rated for 5000 pounds. The Jeep was just overwhelmed. The suspension was too soft, the steering axle too light.

The last time I checked, my Land Rover Discovery was rated at 5000 pounds for towing in the USA. Much as I love my Discovery, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

So I don't take much notice of these figures, other than to ensure I comply with the law. So what's the alternative? Well, I listened to the cumulative wisdom of experienced people on this forum over the years, and then bought a tow vehicle that no-one doubted was the right tool for the job. I also have 40 years of towing experience to bring to bear on the choice of tow vehicle.

I'm not sure whether that amounts to an opinion, or whether it is biased, but I do know I've done the best I can to care for the precious people I transport.
Nick.