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Old 03-07-2020, 01:57 PM   #21
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1985 25' Sovereign
Okc , Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KelloggKid View Post
We are towing with a 2003 Dodge. Way before DEF. I spend far, far less in annual maintenance and preventive maintenance than I would spend on depreciation of a newer truck.

Properly maintained, a Cummins should be good to for 500,000 plus miles so mine should be good for another 10-20 years.



I am with KellogKid, My 2003 has just turned 170,000 and pulls my 85 Airstream 25' Sovereign just fine.
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Old 03-07-2020, 02:27 PM   #22
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New vs Old Truck

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Originally Posted by kb0zke View Post
Talked to a long-time Airstreamer the other day. He tows with an older truck and claims he is better off with a pre-DEF truck than a newer one that uses DEF.
Oh! Boy. Now there is a subject bound to bring out passionate responses. So! Here goes.

My experience has been with buying an ‘06 Duramax in 2010. The following is pure opinion as are all (most?) things to do with towing, trailers, hitches, gasser vs diesel and so on until we slump to the floor exhausted. Here goes -

- with trucks the main reason to buy a new vehicle is that you love it more than your money. Oh! And you can build the added features to your liking.
- with the diesel the main (only?) reason to buy is torque. Don’t bother with exhaustive analysis of mileage, overall cost and so on. Fewer mpg with cheaper fuel, more mpg with expensive fuel, etc. It’s about torque, brothers and sisters.
- with a used vehicle the first cowboy pinstripe in a tight and wooded campground won’t break your heart. Likewise with every other “oops!” moment.
- with the ‘06 and earlier you will smoke. If that troubles you buy ‘07 and after and use DEF. Easy on the throttle and you won’t smoke as badly. Try it.
- if it matters the ‘06 and earlier can burn ‘most any diesel. Beware of high biodiesel mix but the truck will happily burn all else.
- check your filler pipe in the new vehicle. Then check the size nozzle at a truck stop. If it don’t fit it won’t work.
- be meticulous about changing filters and fluids.
- use a diesel additive to provide the lubricant missing from highway diesel. The anti-gel is a nice bonus for us 3-1/2 season campers.

And last, bring a big wallet and enjoy your dusty, “broken-in” vehicle simply eating the miles between stops.
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:37 PM   #23
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2018 23' International
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New vs old truck

We actually tow with our Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel. It uses DEF. we will eventually purchase a truck .
It is my understanding that the newer vehicles that are diesel and use DEF have much better fuel emissions and less pollutants.
That,to us,
is is worth the extra cost of the DEF.
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Old 03-07-2020, 06:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brokeboater View Post
A modern diesel truck, and all the baggage they bring along, simply isn't necessary for towing anything like an Airstream.
I traded my 2014 F150 3.5l ecoboost in for a 2019 2500 mega cab Ram It was a little pricey but if you barter you can get the price reduced quite a bit. The first thing I loved was my insurance dropped.According to the insurance agent it is because or all the new safety features in these new trucks. The second thing is how far you can travel before needing fuel. 6mpg vs 15mpg. I owned a 2007 2500 dodge and was sorry Itraded it in. My new truck carries no baggage except what I load into it!
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Old 03-07-2020, 06:47 PM   #25
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2019 27' Tommy Bahama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gail lynne View Post
We actually tow with our Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel. It uses DEF. we will eventually purchase a truck .
It is my understanding that the newer vehicles that are diesel and use DEF have much better fuel emissions and less pollutants.
That,to us,
is is worth the extra cost of the DEF.
Thanks, X2
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Old 03-07-2020, 07:35 PM   #26
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Thanks for all the thoughts and explanations. Part of the reason why I asked the original question is that I'm cheap. I don't like spending money for no good reason. Years ago it made economic sense to buy a new vehicle and drive it until it died, because that wasn't all that many years down the road. Today, a well-maintained vehicle can last far longer than what the original need was. That's why I buy used vehicles.


The same long-time Airstreamer loaned me some recent copies of Consumer Reports Buying Guides. After studying them, I've decided that getting a newer truck, rather than an older one, makes more sense for our purposes.


Diesel or gas? Two-wheel drive or four-wheel drive? Depends on what I find when I need to start serious shopping. I can live with any combination of those. Condition and price will be the deciding factors, not the options.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:22 AM   #27
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2WD vs 4WD

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb0zke View Post
Thanks for all the thoughts and explanations. Part of the reason why I asked the original question is that I'm cheap. I don't like spending money for no good reason. Years ago it made economic sense to buy a new vehicle and drive it until it died, because that wasn't all that many years down the road. Today, a well-maintained vehicle can last far longer than what the original need was. That's why I buy used vehicles.


The same long-time Airstreamer loaned me some recent copies of Consumer Reports Buying Guides. After studying them, I've decided that getting a newer truck, rather than an older one, makes more sense for our purposes.


Diesel or gas? Two-wheel drive or four-wheel drive? Depends on what I find when I need to start serious shopping. I can live with any combination of those. Condition and price will be the deciding factors, not the options.
Passions run high in this subject and many have firm opinions that they will defend to the death. My outlook was very similarly flexible before we started towing. As I wrote above, if torque is important then buy the diesel. If torque isn't important the gasser could be a better choice. With a smaller trailer and flatland towing the gasser may excel. With a larger trailer and mountain towing the torque becomes more desirable and the higher costs of diesel become more acceptable.

Likewise my attitude was similar to yours on 2WD vs 4WD. I didn't think it was important and I was aware of the tradeoffs in added weight, little as it is, and more maintenance and complexity. I decided on 2WD for its brutal efficiency in towing and my thoughts were that prepared campgrounds were our main destination. 4WD wasn't important. That became a powerful learning point when I met my first carpet of wet leaves when towing off the campsite. It just wasn't possible to pull off the site. What?

On several occasions later I have enjoyed the vista of the back of various tractors when they pulled me off what I have come to call "glare mud". It ain't thick but it sure is slick. Of course the other argument is that 4WD can only get you stuck deeper. OK. Then I'll see the back of the tractor after I've made my best effort. I now am willing to carry the 4WD until the rare moment when it is really, really needed.

My next tow vehicle is most likely to be 4WD. That will be an unhappy moment since my (aging? mature?) D'max is great.
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Old 03-08-2020, 01:21 PM   #28
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They sure don't make vehicles like they used to.

For that I SURE AM GLAD!!!

The digital revolution has made everything in our lives much better including vehicles. There is no comparison between a 2010 and 2020 vehicle. The 2020 vehicle is so much more fuel efficient, quieter, better riding, more comfortable and on and on versus an old a 2010 and older vehicle.

Therein lies the problem.

All of the technology and comfort we fat old Americans have become dependent upon has now been added to our vehicles and for some reason we just can't seem to live without it! Heated steering wheels, heated seats, Synced cell phone, Navi, concert stereo, reclining "jiggle" seats and more. GONE are the days of a simplistic basic transportation vehicle of any type!

Look at a BMW as a classic example. BMW WAS a great reliable transportation vehicle in the 1980's and early 90's that now has horrible reliability record. For YEARS the 325 series was the Car and Driver Best vehicle in the World. Simple solid basic transportation. Manual A/C, crank windows, vinyl seats, a radio, maybe an automatic transmission but most likely a stick with a solid 4 or 6 cylinder engine that maybe had a 150HP. This was even more so the situation with Domestic USA produced trucks.

SOMEHOW we made it through the Stone Age all the while suffering in that basic transportation tow vehicle towing our basic Airstream with all its simplicity! NOW vehicles have all the new technology and CRAP that is offered in the comfort and electronics field. NOBODY TODAY will personally buy a basic transportation vehicle anymore.

The Fat 60 and up crowd is a shining example of that. Read through this other threads about tow vehicles, diesel, gas, trailers and you always see Momma and Daddy's comfort and convenience listed at a BIG REASON why we had to buy that FANCY AIRSTREAM and that LOADED UP fancy vehicle to pull it. More CRAP, Mo Money, Mo Problems and Mo Repairs!

Why are you so surprised when all that COMFORT AND CONVENIENCE breaks down at the worst time?

As buyer's we are victims of our own success in the good Ole USA. Had we not become so affluent, successful and inventive as a nation we certainly would not have aspired to have all this CRAP on our vehicles today.

At the end of the day and this discussion your vehicle, whatever you choose drive/tow, is still just TRANSPORTATION! The fact that you wish to impress me, your friends or you butt in that comfortable fully heated and air conditioned 40 position Corinthian Leather Seat is your business not mine!
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:01 AM   #29
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I have a newer truck with DEF. Lots of folks have issues with the DEF system. Some delete the DEF system to improve mileage and do away with that headache. Some older trucks get as good or better MPG as newer trucks get I put 430,000 miles on my 1999 Ford F-350 7.3 PowerStroke and it was going strong when I sold it in Dec. 2017. Sold it for $10K. New one was $60k. I recommend buying a truck with more capacity than you will expect to use.
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:06 AM   #30
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I drive a 2000 model 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins. I caught it in '02 and paid it off in '06. Over the years I've rebuilt the transfer case and transmission, front end and brakes, starter and alternator, stuff like that, but no
engine issues EVER! I didn't buy a Dodge, I bought a Cummins. It just happened to come with a Dodge body, lol.
I looked at some new and good used units a while back and the sticker shock was more than I could bear. I'll just keep my old, bulletproof truck until I no longer need a truck. 😎
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:30 AM   #31
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Size matters

OK, for those of you with an AS 25 ft. or less, gas is fine. In my case, I currently have a 2007 Classic LTD 34 ft. w/slideout...about 12k lbs. when loaded. Before that, we had a 1999 Excella 34 ft., about 10k lbs. loaded. In October, 2011, I purchased a new Dodge RAM 3500 dually (8 ft. bed) with the Cummins 6.7L non-def engine. This truck replaced a 2005 Dodge 3500 2WD truck with 95K on the clock. The 2011 truck now has 117K miles on the clock and has been trouble free. For those who have had engine problems, did you have the EGR service performed at 65k miles? I just had this done at a local independent shop because I'll be on the road this summer with 130k rolls around. The disk brake pads are original, no transmission (68RFE) problems. I replaced the tranny pan and differential cover with Mag-Hytec aftermarket parts and new Bilstein shocks all around. Right after I bought it, I replaced the original 35 gal. fuel tank with a 60 gal. Transfer Flow tank (no tank in the bed). I just had the front suspension rebuilt (ball joints & tie rod ends) due to some tire wear issues and am good for another 100K+. The new greaseable joints will last longer that those OEM sealed ball joints. Oil changes are at 6 to 7.5k miles with Valvoline engine oil as recommended by Cummins. I order Cummins air, fuel, and oil filters from Geno's Garage in Cumming, GA. I also use an algeacide ("Biocide") available at TSC to prevent algae formation in the big tank. I'm 75 and have been towing trailers since the mid-70's. In '96, I towed another 34 ft. AS with a '96 Dodge Ram 2500 with the 8.0L V-10 gas engine. As they say, there's no replacement for displacement. My 2011 will likely be my last tow vehicle so I'm trying to take good care of it. I moved from Illinois to Texas in early 2018 which has been a good decision. I belong to the TDR club and attended the club raly in June, 2019 in Columbus, IN to celebrate the 100th anniversary of Cummins. The plant tour was awesome and the new 2019 engine is the best yet. Life is all about making choices. Some choices may lead to regret. Next time, choose a RAM/Cummins.
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:37 AM   #32
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DEF is cheap. Like $20 a year for me.

The exhaust from my 2017 F-350 6.7L is clean. I don't spell a whiff of diesel when I'm at the back of the truck. I'm recovering from throat cancer so a clean exhaust is critical to me. I could be wrong but wouldn't a non-emissions diesel produce enough soot to accumulate on the front of the AirStream? All I have are bugs on the front of my trailer.

As stated numerous times so far in the thread, a gas engine truck will pull almost every AirStream trailer. I chose a diesel because my current trailer is 11K GVWR and almost every trip involves climbing at least one pass in the Rocky Mountains. My diesel pulls up those passes with ease, never exceeding 3,500 RPM (if that).

Since I purchase diesel, I go through the Big Rig lanes at the truck stop. Those lanes are way easier to maneuver through than the lanes that cars go to. The price I pay for diesel is a bit more than gas, but not so much more that I'm worried about it.

I very much like the features available in new trucks. Adaptive Cruise Control is awesome!!!
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:50 AM   #33
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Rather have gas

Quote:
Originally Posted by uraljohn View Post
You may want to consider a gasser. With the arrival of the 7.3 gas engine available in the Super Duty Fords, why get a diesel?

Check the box for a diesel and the price jumps approx. $10k. The payload/cargo capacity goes down 600/700/800 LBS. Maintenance costs are way more for a diesel. Fuel is more costly. DEF cost $$ also. When it breaks, and it will, it will cost more to repair.

This is just food for thought. If you absolutely have to have a diesel, have at it.

I have almost 2 million miles in Class 8 diesel trucks. Moving 80,000 LBS down the highway requires a diesel. A modern gasser properly equipped can tow just about any RV down the road in a safe manner. Happy travels.
Last figures I seen said if you put less than fifty thou. On your rig per year you are wasting a lot of money on a diesel. I ordered an 08 F350 V10, 4:30 rear gears, pulled a 32 ft 5th wheel. Averaged 10/11mpg. Passed a bunch of diesels with black smoke blowing everywhere. I never regretted it. I still have the truck and still love it.
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:58 AM   #34
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I tow with a First Generation 5.9 ltr. Cummins Turbo Diesel embodied in a 1992 Dodge W250, a 3/4-ton 4x4 truck with a 1966 8' Alaskan camper in the bed. She has only 215,000 miles and gets 15 mpg towing my Airstream and 19 mpg otherwise. Deluxe features include power windows, an automatic transmission with overdrive, and remote control side mirrors. I don't need more in the Rocky Mountain west.

The wonderful Cummins happily burns any type of diesel fuel found at roadside pumps around the country. Annual oil and filter changes keeps the Cummins hummin. She still roars but ain't DEF. And talk about modern -- she is 39 years newer than my 1953 21' Airstream Flying Cloud! I'm living the dream.
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Old 03-15-2020, 11:12 AM   #35
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Everyone has an opinion and it is probably right for them. Some folks really don't like to have something new, we've got friends who still have flip phones! But, better is subjective and nothing but opinion.

We've had 1/2 and 3/4 ton gas vehicles both Chevy and Ford, a pre-def diesel Ford, and now def diesel Chevy trucks. I would NOT ever go back to the gas model and our newest diesel Chevy gets the best mileage of all of them, not to mention it is practically a stealth vehicle when you compare the noise to our old Ford diesel.

But, for us the biggest difference is the safety features. We have airbags, we have lane indicators, we have a built in braking system for the trailer (rather than the old hand brake for the trailers -yep, been doing this a long time), we've got OnStar and navigation and park assist.

Several years ago we hit a big old buck doing about 65 mph on a country road late at night. It totalled the truck but our airbags deployed and the damaged truck slowed quickly in a straight line (safety feature; airbags trigger a complete shut down of the vehicle). Those airbags kept Mr. Buck from coming through the windshield at me, it was broken and I saw that critter pretty close right before the airbags deployed. OnStar was alerted to the crash, apparently when the airbags deploy, they get right on the phone to you. They called the highway patrol, the tow truck and kept checking on our physical condition. All in all, we were fine if a bit deaf for a couple of days and shaken and stranded for a while.

I think for us the safety features are well worth the cost of a newer vehicle for us and since the mileage is better, the performance is better and quieter and it meets our needs completely...why not?
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Old 03-15-2020, 02:28 PM   #36
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With any used vehicle, you are buying how the previous owner(s) maintained it. Diesels, in particular, are sensitive to oil changes and fuel quality/filter changes. Did the previous owner cheap out on oil and/or filter changes? Then there is the sad story of manufacturers’ attempts to meet new emission requirements without DEF and DPFs. Do you know which engines to avoid, like the 6.0 and 6.4 Powerstroke? I agree with others, if you’re buying a new truck a gasoline engine will do ya’ just fine and save you lotsa money,
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Old 03-15-2020, 02:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 47WeeWind View Post
I tow with a First Generation 5.9 ltr. Cummins Turbo Diesel embodied in a 1992 Dodge W250, a 3/4-ton 4x4 truck with a 1966 8' Alaskan camper in the bed. She has only 215,000 miles and gets 15 mpg towing my Airstream and 19 mpg otherwise. Deluxe features include power windows, an automatic transmission with overdrive, and remote control side mirrors. I don't need more in the Rocky Mountain west.

The wonderful Cummins happily burns any type of diesel fuel found at roadside pumps around the country. Annual oil and filter changes keeps the Cummins hummin. She still roars but ain't DEF. And talk about modern -- she is 39 years newer than my 1953 21' Airstream Flying Cloud! I'm living the dream.
Me too!!

My 1999 Doge Ram 2500HD has the 1st gen 24-valve Cummins engine. Annual maintenance is changing all filters (oil, air & fuel) along with Amsoil. TV has 224k miles on it (including the original tranny).

When I bought the TV with the 32-ft AS Excella in 2011, I benchmarked the consumption towing the AS at 55 mph on flat land (trip from JC to Ogensburg, NY -- got 16.9 mpg.
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Old 03-15-2020, 06:07 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atwebs View Post

Several years ago we hit a big old buck doing about 65 mph on a country road late at night.
Who woulda thunk "a big old buck" would be able to do 65 mph??

(Sorry, couldn't resist, giggle giggle!)

And what is "DEF"? Have seen the signs at gas stations, but have no idea what it is...
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Old 03-15-2020, 06:11 PM   #39
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DEF is Diesel Exhaust Fluid, sometimes called Diesel Emissions Fluid. It helps cut down on NOx in the exhaust.
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Old 03-15-2020, 08:19 PM   #40
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I have a 22 sport that I pull with both a 2018 f150 ecoboost and a 2019 hd3500 Duramax. They both pull this smaller camper fine. You can feel the trailer more behind the f150 in terms of road humps and so on. In terms of cost and maintenance the f150 is cheaper on both. The Duramax is an amazing diesel machine. It uses def and despite it being under the hood it’s not that hard to add the def.

I would hesitate to get an older diesel truck because I personally don’t want to pollute the environment and would prefer to have the emissions devices on the Duramax then a stinky diesel. I hate the smell of a deleted and or older diesel truck, I can and will pass slow down or go around to avoid the smell.

All that said you don’t need a diesel to tow any airstream. In fact the ceo of airstream considers the f150 to be the truck to have per a video he shot with Jay Leno. Get what you like and can afford and have fun camping.
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