New Fords-sway control built in?

[hhendrix]

I just looked at the new 2011 Ford 6.7 Diesel Super Duty last night at a special dealer showing. The new Fords have sway control built in to the braking system. It senses yaw at the hitch and automatically actuates the appropriate truck brakes to control the sway. If you order the truck with the trailer brake controller, it also automatically actuates the trailer brakes (electric only) inn combo with the truck brakes. I watched a video of it and I have to say, it was pretty impressive. It does not eliminate the need for a WD hitch, but it does appear to eliminate the need for sway control at the hitch. Any thoughts out there from our hitch experts. I was planning on ordering the new Ford 6.7 Diesel Super Duty this year anyway, but this sway control really makes it interesting.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by hhendrix

It does not eliminate the need for a WD hitch, but it does appear to eliminate the need for sway control at the hitch...

you might wanna REthink this notion...

does ABS eliminate the need for snow tires or rain tires OR applying the brakes in TIME to stop ?

do sophisticated "traction control" systems eliminate the need for DRIVER control in corners, on curves and in traffic?

does full time AWD eliminate the need for tow trucks?
________

chrysler has had this on the aspen? for 3 years now? and other have started using yaw sensor/systems activations...

the F system has been in use for 1-2 years on the 150 and NOW will be on the 250/350, but it is still an AFTER THE FACT correction.

it is NOT a sway elimination system.

applying the brakes at ONE/2 wheels, cutting throttle response and activating the trailer brakes in response to YAW...

are good things and it's GREAT they've begun to USE the systems...

some ideas have been posted here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...-on-62347.html

and more on this will follow soon.

given how LITTLE car sales folks KNOW about towing or SETUP for towing...

there will be MORE confusion rather than less for a while,

so don't toss how the fancy hitches just yet.


cheers
2air'

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by hhendrix

I just looked at the new 2011 Ford 6.7 Diesel Super Duty last night at a special dealer showing. The new Fords have sway control built in to the braking system. It senses yaw at the hitch and automatically actuates the appropriate truck brakes to control the sway. If you order the truck with the trailer brake controller, it also automatically actuates the trailer brakes (electric only) inn combo with the truck brakes. I watched a video of it and I have to say, it was pretty impressive. It does not eliminate the need for a WD hitch, but it does appear to eliminate the need for sway control at the hitch. Any thoughts out there from our hitch experts. I was planning on ordering the new Ford 6.7 Diesel Super Duty this year anyway, but this sway control really makes it interesting.

Ford has been known to make claims, that are hogwash.

I would wait to see what others may report.

A sway control, stops a sway from happening.

It sounds to me that what Ford came up with, is a control to kill the sway after it happens.

I believe it's better to not have it happen, in the first place.

Andy

[Minnie's Mate]

I agree with both respondents so far...so what does that mean I know any way. But, I wouldn't eliminate a key factor in enjoyable and safe towing-a good weight distribution hitch system with built in sway control. The after-the-fact sway control is that, it controls the sway once it occurs. To repeat an oft used cliché: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. This system may be good as a back-up or additional control in emergency situations but emergencies are few and far between if your rig is properly set up on both sides of the hitch and you pay attention to how you are towing (speed, drowsiness, etc).

[bryanl]

here we go again :-(

"it is NOT a sway elimination system."

"A sway control, stops a sway from happening."

I do wish it were indeed a perfect world but it ain't yet. Depending upon how you want to play with the definition of sway, there just isn't any such thing as some mechanism that will absolutely positively keep your rig from responding to all perturbations in travel in unpleasant ways.

What Ford is doing is like what people did before the sway damping devices often found today were common except that they do it quicker and with a bit more finesse. It is a well known and proven technique but it won't prevent a driver from doing things like trying to swerve around an obstacle going down grade. No device is going to prevent that from happening nor prevent the consequences.

Don't get complacent in your rig prep and driving by thinking there is some mechanical solution that will make you safe.

[B4WEDI]

One thing I can surely live without is another computer controlled electronic device in my vehicle that takes away my input, skills and control.

One incident this winter has me questioning the benefits of ABS. I am sure I could have handled the situation better if I had 100 % control.

[Aviator]

I have a 2009 F150 with the sway control and the factory Ford controller. While helpful, I wouldn't tow without a sway control hitch setup as well.

[Aquabud]

I did the launch of the new 2011 Ford F250/350/450 Diesel and Gas product just three weeks ago for Ford. It does have trailer sway and brake controller in line. The trailer brake controller is supplied by Tekonsha and is an excellent product. The trailer sway mechanism does work, but it works to stop the sway once it is detected. It does not eliminate it all together. It does manage it extremely well if you begin to get any sway whatsoever. The Ford engineers I worked with said that anyone towing should still make every attempt to mitigate sway BEFORE it happens. Therefore, they suggested one should make use of a sway mitigation hitch. They also said that if towers all used the Hensley or Propride hitch system, there wouldn't be a need for sway mitigation controllers on vehicles.

I did a series of towing exercises with the new Diesel and it was extremely impressive. This new truck is truly an awesome piece of equipment. We towed various payloads from 1000 pounds to 16,000 pounds and got a range of 19 to 24 miles per gallon. Incredible results.

By the way...I'm not a Ford employee. I'm an independent product launch specialist that tests these new trucks and provides reviews to various outlets.

This new Ford F-250 series is really ground-breaking.

Good luck to you in your search.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Ford has been known to make claims, that are hogwash.

Hi, please enlighten me on this statement; Must be something I missed while working at Ford New Car Dealers for almost as long as you have been playing with Airstreams.

[dpandorf]

Originally Posted by Aquabud

....I did a series of towing exercises with the new Diesel and it was extremely impressive. This new truck is truly an awesome piece of equipment. We towed various payloads from 1000 pounds to 16,000 pounds and got a range of 19 to 24 miles per gallon. Incredible results.....

Can you tell me how this was verified? I'd be very interested in these numbers.

[hhendrix]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, please enlighten me on this statement; Must be something I missed while working at Ford New Car Dealers for almost as long as you have been playing with Airstreams.

+1, that's a little harsh Andy.

[CanoeStream]

Originally Posted by bryanl

here we go again :-(

"it is NOT a sway elimination system."

"A sway control, stops a sway from happening."

I do wish it were indeed a perfect world but it ain't yet. Depending upon how you want to play with the definition of sway, there just isn't any such thing as some mechanism that will absolutely positively keep your rig from responding to all perturbations in travel in unpleasant ways.

What Ford is doing is like what people did before the sway damping devices often found today were common except that they do it quicker and with a bit more finesse. It is a well known and proven technique but it won't prevent a driver from doing things like trying to swerve around an obstacle going down grade. No device is going to prevent that from happening nor prevent the consequences.

Don't get complacent in your rig prep and driving by thinking there is some mechanical solution that will make you safe.

Thanks for your post, Bryan.

The onboard brake controller has become a nice feature in tow-equipped trucks. Stability control systems have either made cars safer or allowed greater latitude in design -- however you look at it (probably somewhere in between). Extending this computational power to what goes on aft of the hitch sure seems based on Ford's preconception of how to assess and react. Would you have to be several bad decisions down the road before this kicks in? I'd like to see the CYA document Ford furnishes with this!

The driver has ultimate responsibility in driving safely and maintaining their equipment.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by CanoeStream

...I'd like to see the CYA document Ford furnishes with this!....

the F disclaimer is summarized in this direct quote from their TO THE CUSTOMER lit on the new yaw tamer...

"remember that even advanced technology cannot overcome the laws of physics.

it's always possible to lose control of a vehicle due to inappropriate driver input for the conditions."

end quote
_____________

basically this system is about extending the technology of electronic stability control systems from JUST a passenger vehicle...

to include towed OR HAULED stuff (imagine a top heavy slide camper OR tall load in the box, not just a stream on the hitch)

even the best driver canNOT apply ONE BRAKE manually (well maybe the parking brake)

the system has some driver select-ability...

there are ~10 different setting/configurations,

so one can sorta account for 5th wheel/goose necks, on the ball towing, loads and so on...

it also includes RSC (roll stability control) using a 'roll rate sensor' to again selectively apply braking at ONE wheel or more...
_________

the one feature that SHOULD satisfy a lot of old guys is...

the system can also be turned OFF (a good thing for now) without affected the ITBC which is a different system.

the sensors AND the software are new

and like early anti lock brake systems i suspect there will be 'improvements' in the software AND sensors.

3/4-1 ton truck drivers are the LAST of the passenger vehicle crowd to even HAVE full ABS on their rides...

so i welcome these new features along with the 6 AIRBAGS and REdesigned seats/head restraints and steering column.
_________

this new truck has a lot of whistles and bells tied to the yaw sensor/gyroscope/roll rate gizmos....

the CENTER of the dash display can show INCLINE/DECLINE angles (grade), TILT, compass readings and other cool stuff.

there is 'check screen' with visuals and reminders for things like...

"is the tongue jack RAISED ?"..."press OK to confirm"...

pretty cool!

basically there is tiny "kong game" display in the center dash with the truck as the monKEY...

it looks however like the ACTUAL yaw sensor/black box is made in canada...

so we all get a HUGE UPrating in towing capacity and might need to learn how to cuss in french...

works good eh?

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, please enlighten me on this statement; Must be something I missed while working at Ford New Car Dealers for almost as long as you have been playing with Airstreams.

hi ya bob

not EVER attempting to answer or 'splain for some1 else here...

but i think he already posted the enlightenment on this statement and HOW he's using this term for swill here....

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

...Those that suggest hog wash, have no factual basis to go on, other than their opinion.

Anyone can call anything, hog wash. That's an opinion, without fact or foundation.

To some, if they didn't invent it, or publish it, then it must be hog wash....

in this thread...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f396...tml#post822392

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Aquabud

...We towed various payloads from 1000 pounds to 16,000 pounds and got a range of 19 to 24 miles per gallon. Incredible results....

Originally Posted by dpandorf

Can you tell me how this was verified? I'd be very interested in these numbers.

hi dan

i spend time with an ACTUAL F employee (truck division)

who's been driving one of these new trucks for the last several months and longs 1000s of miles in one.

he claims UP TO 19 mpg solo HIGHWAY (not towing) and at ~80 mph mostly.

but the details are IN the details....

there are 4 axle ratios for these new 250/350s and NOT all are available in ALL of the configurations...

to the get the HIGHEST mpg a 3.31 rear end is required.

the 3.31 has ALL of the same towing specs as the more common 3.55 axle...

((towing capacity 14k for SRW 250s and 350s))

none of the HIGH mpg reports are in those trucks....

with 735 peak torque at 15-1700 rpms there is PLENTY of hauling power, even at these lower axle ratios...

BUT and this is relatively important for those hauling long streams AND carrying a lot of stuff in the bed...

the gvwr is 23.5K for the 2 lower axle ratios (about the same as my 05 250)

while the gvwr is 29k (5,500 lbs HIGHER) for the long time used 3.73 axle ratio....

23.5 is pretty good, but IF u want the 29k gvwr OR the 3.73 axle...

it's ONLY available now on the Dual Rear Wheel trucks...

so only 350 duallies can have 3.73. and no 250s.

the DRW with the 3.73 also has a TC of 15,000 vs the 14k for the srw trucks with lesser ratios.
________

the 4.30 rear axle comes with a mind smashing 33,000 lb gVwr and 24,000 lb towing capacity,

but is only available on the 450s.
________

the point being MPG is highly dependent of WHICH axle and WHICH truck...

the guy getting 19 for FORD is driving a 4x2 with 3.31 and a tonneau cover on the bed.

so these HIGH mpg reports are now ~ equal to the 10 year old 7.3 power stroke coal burners...

basically they are BACK to where they once were but with LOTS more kick and all the current emissions standards.

and using ULSD fuels.
________

i suspect TOWING we will still get 10-13 mpg and since my truck is nailed to 11 mpg towing,

1-3 mpg improvement would be nice (no necessarily COST effective however)

as long as the FRONTAL impace/wind resistance of a stream is what it is...

the towing mpg IS NOT gonna go up unless the DRIVER slows WAY down.

cheers
2air'

[Aquabud]

Originally Posted by dpandorf

Can you tell me how this was verified? I'd be very interested in these numbers.

Not certain I know what your asking as regards "verified". The towing exercises were conducted by professional engineers. The mileage results were detailed by something called "Work Solutions" which is a software management system available on the new F Series trucks.

[flyfisher]

Ford states that the 2011 "F-Series Super Duty equipped with the 6.7-liter Power Stroke® V-8 turbocharged diesel engine averages an 18 percent improvement for pickup models and up to 25 percent improvement for chassis cabs versus 2010 models. Trucks equipped with new base 6.2-liter V-8 gas engine average a 15 percent improvement versus 2010 models."

I presently have a 2008 Job #3 F450 6.4L with the 4.30 rear end, and have recently averaged about 7.2 mpg towing at an average hwy speed of 60-62 mph. If I were to get the new 2011 (which I am presently considering), AND got an 18% improvement in mpg, I'd save about $300 in fuel costs per year (based on a projected annual 5,000 mostly-towing-miles.)

However, I understand this new truck also uses urea that must be either added to, or changed periodically - I'm not sure of the details - but I suspect the urea cost would take a big bite out of any fuel cost savings.

So, at least in my case, I'm not anticipating any significant net savings as a result of this proclaimed increase in mpg.

Also, it sounds like the integrated brake controller in these 2011 Super Duties is still going to be certified for electric brakes only, the same as the prior Super Duties are. DANG! if that's the case. (I had to add a second brake controller in my 2008 to control the disc brakes on one of my trailers.) Anyone know for sure if that's the case?

John

[bryanl]

re: "Would you have to be several bad decisions down the road before this kicks in?"

What I am concerned about is this idea of a "perfect solution" that will "prevent sway" - because it is a mindset that is not optimum for safety and not in line with the real world.

There have been many vehicle improvements over the years that have done a lot to make vehicles safer and more reliable. Drivers tend to respond slowly and often in the wrong manner when a driving crisis occurs. That is the why behind ABS for instance. That is also why my Odyssey will back off the accelerator if I push to hard on ice. The Ford sway control is a step in that same direction.

re: "still going to be certified for electric brakes only" -- this is probably because they react faster. The disk brakes still have a significant delay involved in the hydraulic pump and they don't have the same electrical control characteristics, either.

What I am looking for is a smart braking system on a trailer controlled by transducers in the coupler and a few accelerometers. The trailer would then do what was necessary to stay behind the tow vehicle in a straight line. Airstream tried that 40 years ago but the technology wasn't there yet. Nowadays it could be networked with the tow vehicle computers to created an integrated control system. Then all you'd have to worry about is software bugs. ;-)

[Road Ruler]

Every additional safety feature is another step in the positive direction. There are far to many RV accidents due to out of, or lack of control.

We have been using anti lock brakes for over 15 years and our current vehicle has traction and stability control. We have had moments where all of these features have come into play and we have realized the huge benefits.

Fords new technology seems impressive. Would be great to review some more tests with the trailers in tow.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by flyfisher

...However, I understand this new truck also uses urea that must be either added to, or changed periodically - I'm not sure of the details - but I suspect the urea cost would take a big bite out of any fuel cost savings...

it's consumed so adding more is the routine.

perhaps the costs would be offset, it is somewhat imprecise to run the $ numbers as projections...

since we don't know exactly how much it's gonna cost (5 gal or 2.5 gal jugs)

they are 'estimating' the ~5 gallons of water/urea will be consumed over 6-8,000 miles...

and could be filled ~ at oil changes.

motorcraft will be a supplier of the stuff and OWNERS can fill the tank, no special tools, there is a spout next to the diesel spout.

generic auto parts chains will carry the stuff to, like all the other auto fluids.
_________

other maintenance savings will come from EXTENDED oil change intervals and fuel filters and the tranny service.

my tranny is serviced ~30k (towing) but the new gear box is supposed good for UPTO 150k before service.

so conservatively that might be 60-80k intervals towing.
_________

now with the bump in payload and towing capacity one might consider the 350 DRW with a 3.73 rear end instead of the 450.

again with 735 ft/lb of torque that's plenty of grunt for a 5er...
_________

i do like the 450, but my understanding is it's still DEtuned relative to the 250/350 units.

Originally Posted by flyfisher

...Also, it sounds like the integrated brake controller in these 2011 Super Duties is still going to be certified for electric brakes only, the same as the prior Super Duties are...

i consider this an IMPROVEMENT in the F disclaimer regarding brake compatibility...

my owners manuals just reads "will only work with electric, will NOT work with electric/hydraulic yadda, yadda...

but the controller works flawlessly with the elec/hydraulic brakes on my classic,

and had been trouble FREE for 5 years of towing.

NOT certified is fine with me, the performance of the itbc/electric/hydraulic combo has been perfect.

cheers
2air'