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Old 06-15-2009, 07:08 AM   #1
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Need advice from an experienced tow person not truck salesman

Hi,
We have just bought an 25 ft. 06 classic. Its wt. is about 5700 We would like to replace the old 150 (has 5.0 E and Low rear end. with towing pkg.) It does not like hills. We do not know which way to go. We would like to travel in the mountains. We would also like to get somewhat good fuel economy.
I know there are many tow vehicles out there used for towing, however I donít have a clue which way to go.
I do not want to rely on a truck salesperson that does not tow himself to guide my decision. I hope some of you folks that have the experience will share your wisdom.
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Old 06-15-2009, 07:16 AM   #2
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There are as many good tow vehicle types out there as there are manufacturers. The question is how do you intend to use the vehicle 90% of the time? Do you haul passengers, pets, or cargo? Do you have a long commute that you'll use the vehicle for, or will it just be parked except when you tow? Do you want a pickup, van, or SUV?

If you're just using the vehicle to tow, then pretty much anything with a 120+ inch wheelbase, short rear overhang, and a tow package with a 10,000 lb tow rating will work. If you need to use it to commute too, or haul seven passengers, then you'll need to be a little more specific in your shopping. The rest of the questions you'll have to fill in the answers to for yourselves.

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Old 06-15-2009, 07:27 AM   #3
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Quote:
We would like to replace the old 150 (has 5.0 E and Low rear end. with towing pkg.) It does not like hills.
Been towing trailers since '71, and I've never had a tow vehicle that "liked hills". Don't think they exist.

Quote:
We would also like to get somewhat good fuel economy.
Do you want good fuel economy towing, or just driving? You really can't have both in one vehicle.

There are lots of pickups now days that have better fuel mileage not towing than your older F150, but probably not too much better while towing. Most gasoline V8's switch to four cylinder mode today under light load, and that helps some with normal driving mileage, but not towing.

Then, there's the Diesels, which have lots more torque, but depending on who you listen to, the mileage is questionable. If you listen to the brand loyal chearleaders, they get fantastic mileage. If you read the actual tests done by some of the car magazines, not so good.

The thing is, it takes a set amount of fuel to produce a certain amount of power to pull a given amount of weight up the hill at a reasonable speed. Laws that cannot be broken.
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Old 06-15-2009, 07:43 AM   #4
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Thanks folks. We want to buy a new truck or one that has low miles. We will just use the tow vehicle for towing; not for other trips. Fuel economy for towing tops the list. And would like to know what extra things are good to have such as back up cameras and which ones are not worth the money.
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:20 AM   #5
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..... Then, there's the Diesels, which have lots more torque, but depending on who you listen to, the mileage is questionable. If you listen to the brand loyal chearleaders, they get fantastic mileage. If you read the actual tests done by some of the car magazines, not so good.

The thing is, it takes a set amount of fuel to produce a certain amount of power to pull a given amount of weight up the hill at a reasonable speed. Laws that cannot be broken.
A lot of truth here Steve. My seat of the pants thinking on why my Duramax gets only middling mileage goes this way (any with more direct knowledge? please pipe in!). Feds reset emission and low sulfur fuel standards and manufacturers moved to modify their engines in four generations between 2001 & 2007. Now there's more gear tying down diesels from operating in their cheap efficient belching glory. A big factor IMO is that they added 30 horsepower with most every generation to where we have 330 hp behemoths these days. Suburban commandos demanded it! Nobody ever doubted the ability of a 175 hp Dodge diesel to get the job done. But parents hide your children and cats! Young ones would tremble and cat boxes would .... no wait, that hasn't changed.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:10 AM   #6
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Greetings from the Florida Panhandle

As had been said, there are many good tow vehicle out there capable of towing your '06 Airstream 25 footer. We have an '05 25FB that we tow with an '04 Suburban 2500 (3/4 ton). We find this to be a good match overall. We have towed our Airstream with our '04 Chevrolet Tahoe (1/2 ton). It did not do nearly as well as the Suburban.

I would also strongly suggest that you take your Airstream to a local truck scale and weigh it with everything on board that you plan to take on a trip. The figure of 5700# that you state in your post may be quite a bit low. Our '05 25 FB weighs 7400# ready for a trip. The actual weight of your Airstream is super important when considering a new tow vehicle.

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Old 06-15-2009, 09:50 AM   #7
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What Tow Vehicle ??????? Me Oh My

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airperson View Post
Hi,
We have just bought an 25 ft. 06 classic. Its wt. is about 5700 We would like to replace the old 150 (has 5.0 E and Low rear end. with towing pkg.) It does not like hills. We do not know which way to go. We would like to travel in the mountains. We would also like to get somewhat good fuel economy.
I know there are many tow vehicles out there used for towing, however I don’t have a clue which way to go.
I do not want to rely on a truck salesperson that does not tow himself to guide my decision. I hope some of you folks that have the experience will share your wisdom.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXX
I have 22 years in the transportation industry and haul things all the time personally. What Steve, Bob, & Roger have said is all true and good points to consider, and if you want fuel economy not going to happen when towing, but you can reduce the lower mpg's as much as possible, no matter what you buy figure somewhere between 10-14 MPG's. With a camper at 5700 Lbs and then figure another 2000 Lbs for personal effects it still falls under that of which any new 1/2, 3/4, ton truck can haul.
I can not speak about a dodge but I can talk about GMC/Chev & Ford, the new GMC/Chev 1/2 ton or 1500's are rated at 8000 Lbs on the bumper and 9900 if connected in the bed, wheel base does play an important part which means the longer the better, drawback is they both have a tendency to put an undrated hitch on (bumper mounted reciever instead of frame mounted), I have a 2007 GMC 1500 extended cab, 6 1/2 foot bed, 5.4 engine, Rated with 8000 bumper, 9500 bed, and had it hooked to my 76 31 foot Soveirgn and took it from east Tenn to AS in Ohio 525 miles, traveled up I-75 and it is quite hilly. As far as pulling the truck handled it fine, averaged 11 mpg in the hills and 13-13.8 mpg on the flat. Only drawback is the lightweight of the truck was not good as far as the trailer being able to push the truck, also the springs was under what is needed of coarse this is a 1/2 ton. A Freinds 08 F150 4X4 Crew 6 1/2 ft bed 5.8 engine, this truck also handled my trailer quite well around the east Tn area and over into NC through the mountain, his suspension also did better as it was rated for 10,000 lbs on the hitch (frame mounted) so it had a stiffer spring, he averaged 13.0 in mpg.
I have since bought a 2005 Ford Excursion, 6.0, which is the same as an F250 except the body is like a suburban, I have 5 Grandchildren 3 of which travels with us so the added space in a vehicle is needed. The Excursion is rated at 13,000 on the bumper, we just went from East TN to Myrtle Beach and in the mountain stayed at 11.5 mpg and on the flat 14-15.
With you only having a 26 footer, my suggestion would be to look at a 09/10 Ford F150 Crew Cab, 6 1/2 foot bed, Topper, with tow pkge, it is rated at 12,000 lbs, or a GMC/Chev Crew, 6 1/2 bed, Topper, Heavy tow pkge, frame mounted reciever, both with at least a 5.8 or caparable engine, unless you think or plan on moving up to a longer trailer then I would look at the Ford F250 or GMC/Chev 2500 either with a diesel.

Sarge
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:19 AM   #8
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Like Sarge, I have a lifetime of towing experience (41 years) having ranched all my life. There were very few days I did not tow something. I pull a 31' with an F-250 crew short bed 6.0 diesel. Like you, it is mainly used just for towing. I obtained 15.2 mph on a 9400 mile trip through Canada and the Western USA two summers ago with this combination. This truck/engine combination handles any mountain pass without compromise. I'd recomend either a Ford or Chevrolet diesel 3/4 ton.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:30 AM   #9
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I have been looking at as many trucks as you've had comments from folks. I have been towing with a Nissan Armada for the past year and a half. I really like the Armada - my wife really likes the Armada BUT is has a fairly short wheelbase and a light tranny cooler. The tow capacity is very good rated at 9,600 lbs. Ive had no problems towing it rhrough six states through the PA "mountains" and down into Virginia. It heats up but always cools off. I can get 12-13 mpg towing and 17-19 driving. But, knowing we will be going out west and towing it through the mountains, I'm not satisfied it is the best TV for us. I've been looking and driving several different trucks - and several have STRONG points and weak points. Now, I have to decide which of the strong points I like and which of the weak points I can live with. I really liked an '07 Chevy Crew Cab w/ a Duramax diesel but I'm not sure about the additional cost for the diesel. It wouldn't fit in my garage - would an extended cab with a short bed fit? I do like that Duramax. I also looked at a Ford 250 diesel - big truck! I found the ride in the Silverado a little more comfy - so did DW. I think either would pull our 25' with ease and not worry about mountains. Some have said the 6.0L Chevy 1500HD would pull with ease - the Heavy Duty seems to be big enough but I'm not sure about in the Rockies. I get mixed comments about them on the FORUMS. As you get comments, you'll see how confusing it will become. Check out Consumers Report on whatever you are looking at - I find the CR to be VERY helpful, honest and accurate. Enjoy the search - enjoy your find.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:36 AM   #10
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I too had an F-150 and pulled our 30ft Excella for almost 7 years, through the mountains, across the United States and to Florida several times. Now that we are not working and because we travel about 6 months of the year, I switched to an F-250, 6.4 diesel. The difference in towing is unmistakeable as well as a marked improvement. We don't drive faster but the ride is much more relaxing so longer travel days are easier. The mileage with the diesel is about 12mpg which is the same as for the F-150, 5.4L but we can tow uphill faster than the 35mph we used to with the 1/2 ton.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:51 AM   #11
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tow vehicles

Huge amounts of horsepower, usually make it a gas guzzler.

Rear end ratio's are the real key.

If the ratio is 4.0 to 1 or so, towing would be easier than if the ratio was 2.8 to 1, or so.

The better the ratio, the less brute horsepower requirements.

4 X 4's are unnecessary.

Now if you want to tow the Queen Mary, then different story.

Andy
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanoeStream View Post
A lot of truth here Steve. My seat of the pants thinking on why my Duramax gets only middling mileage goes this way (any with more direct knowledge? please pipe in!). Feds reset emission and low sulfur fuel standards and manufacturers moved to modify their engines in four generations between 2001 & 2007. Now there's more gear tying down diesels from operating in their cheap efficient belching glory. A big factor IMO is that they added 30 horsepower with most every generation to where we have 330 hp behemoths these days. Suburban commandos demanded it! Nobody ever doubted the ability of a 175 hp Dodge diesel to get the job done. But parents hide your children and cats! Young ones would tremble and cat boxes would .... no wait, that hasn't changed.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXX
Bob you are so close to hitting the nail on the head, where the changes have been made is in the computers on these vehicles. Manufacturers update the computers everytime you bring your vehicle in with programs to try and meet the emissions requirments also to make your vehicle do worse so you will trade it for new. I have been doing alot of study on this subject and talking with mechanics, racers, fleet owners, and they all have pretty much said the same thing, take your vehicle to a qualified person for tuning the computer and get the manufacturers programs removed and new special written programs installed to make your engine operate at it maximum efficiancy. My Excursion was done by the previous owner and only had minor mods done and he said that he got a 1-2 mpg increase and I believe this to be true because this gets 1 mpg better than my 04 Harley Davidson F250 with a 6.0.

Sarge
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:37 AM   #13
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GM diesels (maybe Ford too?) will all have 3.73 rear ends. There's no need for a 4.1 when you have all that torque.

Before all the financial troubles GM was developing a 6-cylinder diesel for 1/2 ton trucks. Toyota had a similar program. I'd bet we won't be seeing any of those for a couple years and probably not until the market says it needs them.

Comments on Nissans -- I had a Titan. It towed my 24' Argosy just fine but it had only 1343# of payload capacity. Add close to 950+ pounds real life tongue weight for my Safari (more for a Classic). You can see how the payload will max out with 2 people aboard and not much else. I sold it in Feb 2006 before a new towing season came along. My Titan drivetrain had plenty of oomph. The five-speed was solid but annoying -- facing a small hill at speed, it would shift from 5th to 3rd gear every time -- vroom, vroom, there goes the economy. Mileage was meager -- 11 mpg some of the time if I drove no faster than 60.

Titan is the pickup truck on which the Armada is based. A general statement is that an SUV body adds weight and has lower capacities. Yet Rich Luhr towed his 30' Bunkhouse Safari with an Armada on his long, long Tour of America. I don't know if he had any Nissan sponsorship. He used a Hensley for sure.

I'll just say -- add up the weight of what will be in the tow vehicle when you camp (driver, passengers, pets, bicycles, tools, toys, etc). Add that weight to the real tongue weight with your gear, propane & weight distribution aboard (see your manual for the bathroom scale technique). If that sum is less than any tow vehicle's payload capacity, I'll bet the house you don't need to pay any attention to tow capacity. You'll be under tow capacity every time. Tow capacity is a maximum calculated with a single person aboard as the driver and absolutely no other load in the tow vehicle.

But avoid the 4.6L engines anyway -- you already know that.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:35 PM   #14
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The thing with Diesels is they get max torque at relatively low RPM, so they will just grunt up the hill at highway speeds. Drivers like that.

Gasoline engines on the other hand, need to turn up more RPM to reach max torque and power...typically around four thousand RPM and above, so you have to gear down and let them scream. That's what they are built to do. Drivers don't like to hear it....think they are going to come apart, but they don't.

Last year we drove over 11,000 miles on a trip with the trailer ('75 23' at that time) towing with a 1/2 ton GMC 5.3 Liter V8 with towing package, and went over the continental divide many times. Never had a pass we couldn't pull easily in second gear, 50 MPH, turning 3K RPM. This year may be different....towing an additional 1500 pounds. By the way, we averaged 12.1 MPG for the entire trip.

The thing I keep going back to on Diesels is the initial cost of about $7K more than a gas rig, and oil and filter changes at a typical rate of twice that of a gas rig, and typically three times the cost.

If we were fulltiming and towing many more miles per year, I would go Diesel, but not where we are now.
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Old 06-15-2009, 02:43 PM   #15
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We just bought an '08 Ram Quad cab with Hemi and really love it. We previously towed our 23' 1970 Safari with our 2005 Hemi Grand Cherokee or our 2002 4.7L Dakota. The Jeep has gobs of torque, but the short wheel base made my wife a little uncomfortable in some situations. I personally love the Jeep/Airstream combo. It's nice to be able to U-turn on two lane roads and go anywhere. I figure we're at around 4500 lbs in the trailer loaded and we have one child, so not too much stuff. I get 20 mpg at 50 mph steady state cruise in 4 cyl mode (no trailer), though you really have to work to get this kind of mileage. Just wanted to pipe in about Chryslers. Where headed to Wyoming/SD/CO next month so I can give a good report on the Ram after that.
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Old 06-15-2009, 02:56 PM   #16
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After 140,000 miles on my chevy 250HD duramax, and several times through the Rockies, I have never been short of HP. I did put a BD exhaust brake on it, and I am still on the original brake pads. all I have had to replace is battery and normal service every 3,000 miles.
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:58 PM   #17
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I agree with others on this thread that diesels are the best way to go if you want power and fuel economy. My 6.0L Power Stroke Turbo Diesel Excursion has a gear ratio of 3.73 and it screams up inclines.
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mello mike View Post
My 6.0L Power Stroke Turbo Diesel Excursion has a gear ratio of 3.73 and it screams up inclines.
screaming uphill = good
screaming down hill = not good

disk brakes on all four wheels are nice
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Old 06-15-2009, 05:44 PM   #19
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screaming uphill = good
screaming down hill = not good

Disk brakes on all four wheels are nice
lol!!!
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:05 PM   #20
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Lots of ideas most of them good. My 2 cents is that if you are going to tow in the mountains particularly at altitude you need a 3/4 ton vehicle, with a 10,000 pound tow rating. Loaded up, your rig will push 7,500 pounds. Look at the combined vehicle rating also. As another poster said, you may have a ton of stuff in your tow vehicle with fuel, passengers and cargo. Half ton vehicles climb o.k. but they tend to get pushed on down hill corners, brake more slowly and are more subject to trailer sway due to soft rear end suspension.
I like the convenience of towing with a enclosed passenger vehicle rather than a pickup. Dog, passengers and cargo are easier to deal with.
My current vehicle is diesel, unfortunately no longer made. It gets 11 to 14 mpg towing a 25 foot Safari. I drive at 65 mph.
Owners of gas rigs report similar mileage. I am skeptical. I went on a road trip with a person who had an identical tow vehicle to mine except it was a V-10. We drove at the same speeds. He got 9 to 11 mph which is what I got with my last gas tow vehicle. Diesels are known to have an advantage in fuel economy.
However, it takes many years to pay for the increased cost of the diesel by fuel savings. Unless you plan to keep your tow vehicle for hundreds of thousands of miles or prefer a diesel, a gas engine works just fine.
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