Mini Cooper Clubman & Matched Argosy

[Road Ruler]

Hello Andy

Lots of discussions of the newer, smaller engines coming down the lines for use in cars and trucks. Many are using and are going to use turbos in the configuration.

Can you give us an opinion please? In the Mini/Arogosy combination how did you find the turbo interaction with engine power demands and the vehicles power demands? When driving at highway speeds is the turbo assisting or does it only come on when accelerating or climbing a grade?

Many of us look forward to keeping engine sizes/vehicles down to a reasonable size. We like the good fuel mileage they provide 80% of the time when not towing.

Also want to thank you for helping us with our current set up. It has been working great now for 5 years (200 hours of towing).

[daddio]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

I am afraid we are much better at hitches that photo shop so it is real. I can send you the other 20 pictures we photo shopped as well. We did photo shop the videos we took since obviously it really can't move.

The tow rating comes from Europe where they do not have the benefit of weight distribution hitches, electric brakes or properly balanced trailers

Don't worry about coming to Canada I think this combination would outhandle and out stop most full size trucks and SUV's. It really is amazing how much fun it is to drive.

Andrew T

Man I’m impressed. I’m new to the forum. ( today ) I’ve been working on my combo for two years, and finally have it done. Now I just need to make the right adjustments to the system. I have a 1954 GMC ½ T, towing a 2002 Bambi 19’. The truck was upgraded, with disk brakes on the front, rebuilt GMC -Six 270 bored, Holly carb, Clifford intake, RV cams. 700R with tranny cooler. Ride rite air bags, and f/r sway bars, and WDH. I’ve had sooo many folks tell me the truck is too small. I know I don’t have a conventional tow rig, but with a little work, should tow fine. I’ll get a pic up sometime. Again great job !!

[nvestysly]

Doesn't Mean You Should!

This is certainly a cool looking setup but I sure would not want to drive/tow that rig. Yeah, I know... I'm an old fashioned 3/4 ton kinda guy. Or a least a relatively full-size vehicle kinda guy.

I once put a Yamaha YZ motorcycle engine in a 3-wheel golf cart. That thing was wild! Just because I could do did not mean I should do it.

Lucius

[dkottum]

It looks to me what Andrew T has demonstrated is if you start with a great handling vehicle, is not difficult to create a great handling tow combo with it.

Conversely, if you start with a poor handling vehicle (such as a pickup truck, almost any pickup truck), you may be on the wrong track to begin with. A typical towing truck must be heavy so it does not get wagged by its tail (trailer), needs lots of power to compensate for the extra weight, needs to big fuel tank to feed its big power source, needs suspension stuff and brake software to stabilize it, many more mods are done, and may need a $2500 hitch because it is still unstable. To me, this concept is less than ideal, perhaps less ideal than Andrew T's lightweight combos.

But the fact that Andrew T has set up lightweight vehicles for towing, should not be read as any lightweight vehicle may be properly set up for towing. Maybe you could give him a call and ask what he thinks of your rig, and what might be done.

[G Torres]

Originally Posted by daddio

Man I’m impressed. I’m new to the forum. ( today ) I’ve been working on my combo for two years, and finally have it done. Now I just need to make the right adjustments to the system. I have a 1954 GMC ½ T, towing a 2002 Bambi 19’. The truck was upgraded, with disk brakes on the front, rebuilt GMC -Six 270 bored, Holly carb, Clifford intake, RV cams. 700R with tranny cooler. Ride rite air bags, and f/r sway bars, and WDH. I’ve had sooo many folks tell me the truck is too small. I know I don’t have a conventional tow rig, but with a little work, should tow fine. I’ll get a pic up sometime. Again great job !!

daddio what is your rear axle gear ratio. I currently have a 59 chev apache that I want to upgrade to tow a 25ft 1970 caravanner.

G.Torres

[biggoofball]

Andy, you never cease to amaze me. Nice job. I too, would trust you to set up any vehicle to tow.

[Andrew T]

Hi Daddio

I remember when trucks like yours were fairly common tow vehicles without all the modern enhancements. It should easily handle the 19'. The combination should feel very stable if it does not then you need some hitch tweaking.

The 59 Apache should work as well but if you are going to drive it a lot of miles I would consider the upgrade to disc brakes otherwise the traffic may be stopping a lot faster than you can. The Caravaner has pretty substantial hitch weight so make sure you have a good solid receiver and properly set up hitch system. Other than that it should make a cool combination.

Andrew T

[Minnie's Mate]

Originally Posted by nvestysly

Doesn't Mean You Should!

This is certainly a cool looking setup but I sure would not want to drive/tow that rig. Yeah, I know... I'm an old fashioned 3/4 ton kinda guy. Or a least a relatively full-size vehicle kinda guy.

I once put a Yamaha YZ motorcycle engine in a 3-wheel golf cart. That thing was wild! Just because I could do did not mean I should do it.

Lucius

I agree with you Lucius. Just because you can doesn't mean you should...or that it will be safe in an emergency situation. I have been there and done that one and glad I had my 3/4 ton truck to manage my 8,400#, 30 foot Airstream.

Originally Posted by dkottum

It looks to me what Andrew T has demonstrated is if you start with a great handling vehicle, is not difficult to create a great handling tow combo with it.

Conversely, if you start with a poor handling vehicle (such as a pickup truck, almost any pickup truck), you may be on the wrong track to begin with. A typical towing truck must be heavy so it does not get wagged by its tail (trailer), needs lots of power to compensate for the extra weight, needs to big fuel tank to feed its big power source, needs suspension stuff and brake software to stabilize it, many more mods are done, and may need a $2500 hitch because it is still unstable. To me, this concept is less than ideal, perhaps less ideal than Andrew T's lightweight combos.

But the fact that Andrew T has set up lightweight vehicles for towing, should not be read as any lightweight vehicle may be properly set up for towing. Maybe you could give him a call and ask what he thinks of your rig, and what might be done.

I'm sorry to disagree, but nothing you said makes logical sense. I've been towing my 30' Safari for four years now and I would never trust a modern Airstream to something as puny as a Minni Cooper. Just my opinion, but one that is based on personal experiences. Perhaps if I were an automotive engineer I might have a different opinion, but I just don't see the Minni Cooper/Argosy as being a safe combination.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate

I've been towing my 30' Safari for four years now and I would never trust a modern Airstream to something as puny as a Minni Cooper.

that isn't a "modern airstream"; its a vintage argy, and I think people may be missing the point that this is an extremely lightweight trailer. These minuets are quite small, but they are proportioned exactly the same as any airstream, so in pictures, or without any scale, they look much bigger than they are. You need to see it in-person to appreciate just how small they are.
I don't want to speak for AndyT, but I doubt he'd hook up a mini to your late-model 30' airstream, either.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate

Perhaps if I were an automotive engineer I might have a different opinion, but I just don't see the Minni Cooper/Argosy as being a safe combination.

MM, you may be on to something with that thought. On another RV forum a ME stepped in and made these comments.....

QUOTE:

I'm a ME working under Daimler. Let me tell you, a MAJORITY of the design specifications are not finalized by the engineering department. We can go through rigorous testing to prove the safe limit of a component, and marketing or the lawyers can slap on their veto stamp due to customer demand, perception, and other stupid reasons.

While I have never worked on design for towing, I can almost guarantee that most sedans and minivans are under-rated for marketing reasons. Simple law of physics tell you that the power-weight ratio, handling dynamics, and stopping power of a 3300 lbs, 270hp Altima + 5000 lbs trailer is superior to a 300hp F150 + 11000 lbs trailer.

Tow rig to trailer weight ratio is also largely irrelevant with proper design. Proof: commercial rigs tow trailers weighting many times heavier than the rig itself.

[dkottum]

Minnie's Mate, I fully understand the logic of the 30' Airstream and 3/4 ton pickup. No argument with that.

We prefer the smaller Airstream for our travel, and do not like a pickup as a tow vehicle. When at destinations and unhook, we would much rather have a more agile and economical vehicle to get around the countryside with, especially off the beaten path.

I have wanted to tow our 20' Safari SE with a Toyota FJ Cruiser because of its size and agility, but have chosen not to as the "numbers" do not work. I would still like to, if it could be done safely. Andy?

[dkottum]

Andy, that would be 2007 20' Safari SE and FJ Cruiser with manual trans and full-time four wheel drive. Yah, yah, I know, the numbers don't work well, but is there some experience in your shop?

[Andrew T]

We have set up several FJ Cruizers for towing. It is not a vehicle I would whole heartly suggest due to the centre of gravity, soft tires and live axle rear suspension but on the other hand you only have a 20' Airstream.

When we set them up we strengthen the hitch receiver by running a tank bar forward to just behind the axle. This bar absorbs the torque from the torsion bars so you get effective weight transfer. The stock hitch will just twist.

Most of the ones we have set up have been with 25' Airstreams and lite trailers and we always use a Hensley with this size. However we have one customer with a 19' and we set him up with a 750 lb. eaz-lift and a friction sway control. I suggested he change the stock tires to 235/65R x 17" XL which have a fraction of the sidewall sway. However the owner is pleased with it with the stock tires and sees no need to change them.

Here are a couple of pictures.

Andrew T

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, I would be concerned with the hitch spring bars being so close to the ground on this FJ set-up. Maybe an Equal-i-izer would be better. [My opinion]

[OB Bambi]

No Photo Shop.

[Andrew T]

The torsion bars actually have plenty of ground clearance it is just because the picture was taken over the grass that they are that low.

An Equalizer would not be advisable on a 19' as the "A" frame is not strong enough to withstand the forces of the Equalizer brand hitch bars. Because the bars are not tapered they have limited travel when you go into dips etc.

[Andrew T]

The original Beetle is one car we have never put a hitch on. My Father drove them back and forth to work in Toronto for years and it was the first car I ever drove.

This Argosy is not actually and Minuette it is a full 8' wide 1973 model but it is not overly heavy about 3200 lbs. The new 7'6" wide 22' Sport would be a great match for the Mini.

[Minnie's Mate]

I would be particularly concerned with whether the transmission of the Minni would hold up to towing a trailer of this size. Also, would the brakes be up to the task without overheating? How well would other components hold up to this kind of load? I suppose you could get by with this combination if you only intended to tow the trailer once or twice per year on short trips and didn't want a separate dedicated tow vehicle, but it really would tax the car when towing I really don't think that the manufacturer designed the car to perform optimally under such loads. Not to mention that a car that small would really wear you down on a trip of any length. However, I have no experience with a Minni and really have no desire to. They are great for what they were intended and that is to be a fun to drive economy car. Just my opinion.

[Andrew T]

The brakes are not a concern this model has huge brakes for its weight with tons of reserve, likely more reserve braking capacity than a truck would have which ususally does well to stop itself. The Argosy also has the large 12x2" breaks so quite a lot of breaking capability for its weight. Though I did not measure stopping distances as it was not my vehicle I would think it would out stop most any solo truck. The transmission is a 6 speed manual so transmission wear would not be an issue but it would likely need clutches a little more frequently than if just driven solo. Again though the clutch is quite large for the weight of the combiantion.

What you would need to watch out for is overheating the exhaust valves with the turbo. So the turbo is fine to use for entering a entrance ramp or passing slow traffic but you don't want to climb a 5 mile grade under maximum boost or drive all day into a headwind under full boost. So driving it means keeping an eye on the boost gauge, not unlike watching the exhaust manifold temps on the early deisel trucks.

I don't think it has the ground clearance for Alaska or Mexico but I would not hesitate to it drive to BC tomorrow. If the worst case happens you need to spend money on a mechanical repair sometime you are still thousands ahead of operating an separate tow vehicle that does not suite your day to day usage.

Then you have to factor in how much fun it is that has to be worth something.

[Minnie's Mate]

My feeling is this: Andrew T knows what he is doing so for him to drive that combo is probably OK. I'm not saying he is wrong. But the average smoe like me doesn't keep all of those factors in mind.

I realize not everyone wants to drive a 3/4 ton truck, or any truck for that matter, so this would probably be an practical combo for some. However, for what the engineering of the receiver, and a $3,000 for a Hensley/Pro Pride/etc. and the installation of all this equipment would come close to the price of a mid-90s era Suburban or Tahoe that could be used for towing only, or fill in for purposes that a Minni can't and you would have a more comfortable ride than a cramped, compact (ultimate compact) car that you have to shift gears in traffic getting in or out of your home port or along the route to your destination.