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Old 02-17-2020, 09:39 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by mkcurtiss View Post
We tow big stuff in America bro.....We tow stuff that would collapse the frame on your computerized euro suv thing.....We tow things that would literally lift the front wheels off the ground if you were actually stupid enough to connect it to your euro suv.....

..Are you actually going to try to say that your euro suv could replace our heavy duty pickup trucks in America? That we are stupid for buying a Ford F-350 4wd, and we should buy a mercedes or a beamer suv instead, so that when we are hauling our big loads, we can have motorized steering column and 12 speaker surround sound? Really? This conversation is getting more absurd all the time....


I would totally have a beer with you...

And, we are talking about Airstreams, not 10 horse trailers and tractor sized flatbeds.

Several German SUVs are fantastic and heavy duty capable machines, and lets not leave out the Range Rovers from the UK. If the discussion is on a 25í Flying Cloud, then yes the SUV is just as capable as the 350. It isnít until you get to the 30í+ range that the argument tilts to the 250+ class.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:03 AM   #162
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And, we are talking about Airstreams, not 10 horse trailers and tractor sized flatbeds.

If the discussion is on a 25’ Flying Cloud, then yes the SUV is just as capable as the 350. It isn’t until you get to the 30’+ range that the argument tilts to the 250+ class.
100%. Obviously once the trailer weight exceeds 7700lbs the SUVs are no longer in the running and a truck is your only option.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:08 AM   #163
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AShar,
See what you've started by sharing things you've learned:-)
The message here is; some will argue how right their own OPINION is and never consider any other opinion.
From another AS group..... Schutt it
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:30 AM   #164
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When I purchased my 2012 2500HD Cummins Ram 4X4 in January of 2013. I looked at the gap between the top of the stock 17" Michelin tire and the wheel opening. I wondered if there really was about 10" of travel in the suspension as I hauled my sorry backside up into the truck. The COG is really much higher than necessary.

I took the truck from the dealership and filled the tank and hit the scales. I took the truck to the scales after every accessory was added and watched the useful payload number decrease.

I had a reservation with Kelderman Air suspensions in a few days and hoped I could lower the truck a few inches with their level ride system. The ride to their Oskaloosa, Iowa factory on the Interstates was bone jarring. My wife is full figured and would not have enjoyed the ride.

All of the Ram's steel springs, both front and rear, were removed. I looked at the pile of steel parts and thought I was going to perhaps gain some payload back. Nope, the net had gone down 100 pounds with airbags all around and a frame mounted air compressor. I was extremely disappointed that we could not lower the truck in the front. But the rear had come down to level which was a couple of inches. I have a dump switch for the rear airbags and that lowers the tailgate about five inches which allows me as a short fat guy to actually place things onto the tailgate without a ladder.

The air bag ride was a great improvement and the wife suffers no discomfort. I still have a great payload. But it still is a truck with too high COG and relatively numb steering. I have owned and driven some fine European cars (Ferrari, Maserati, Mercedes, Volvo and VW) and they are in a completely different world in terms of comfort, handling and performance. Of that group, only the 1968 Volvo 145 station wagon and my 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDFI with a 3.0 liter v6 turbo diesel offered a towing hitch here in the USA.

We towed (using our Volvo 145) a rented pop up camper. We had a small dingy on the roof. My wife, me and the toy Collie were inside the wagon. All of our camping stuff was around inside the Volvo and trailer. That was a true load for the four cylinder engine and we were on the relative flats of New England coast line. Ignorance was bliss.

I towed the new and empty (only Propane and fresh water for a 6,000 pound weight) 2013 25FB International Serenity home from the Los Angles dealership to Phoenix with the Mercedes. The Mercedes had been taken to CanAm in London, Ontario, Canada where the factory installed receiver was reinforced to support WD technology and the Hensley Arrow stinger was shortened about five inches and was bent slightly downwards to preload the WD arms with less travel of the screw jacks.

That was my first towing experience with a larger trailer (not counting the hay wagons in my youth on the farm) and it was a long story getting homed due to a screw I picked up in the right tire when I stopped to check the lug nuts on the trailer wheels. California has a 55mph towing speed limit and I was okay with that driving in rush hour traffic east bound. The car had shifted to towing mode when the power cord was plugged into the rear of the ML. The shift points were different. I was able to maintain 55 going up the steep incline out of Palm Springs on I-10 in fourth gear and 3,000 rpm. We had set the Tekonsha Prodigy RF brakes so that system worked well too. The surprise was the literature tongue weight of 833 pounds was now 1,150 pounds empty.

We were able to load the trailer with our stuff and kept the tongue weight at 1,175 pounds and the loaded trailer weight to 6,900 pounds.The car was now not as happy with this much load by the sounds that were being generated.

Not wanting to damage the ML, I acquired the Ram mentioned above. It was more than happy to tow the 25FB. It is still “happy” with the 31’ Classic that scales 9,200 pounds and has a tongue weight that now is 1,175 pounds (down from 1,375 pounds when I had four Lifeline 600 Amp Hour 6Vdc batteries on the tongue).

I had kept the Tekonsha brake system and the Hensley Arrow hitch when we traded the 25FB in on our Classic. Those parts are now installed onto out 2015 23D International Serenity along with ditching the stock 14” tires and wheels and installing 15” SenDel wheels with the same model 15” Michelin tires I had used on the 25FB. Thus the 23D is at the same elevation as the 25FB and all the hitch settings were the same. The tow vehicle is our 2007 Mercedes and it is very happy with the 6,062 pound GVW of the fully loaded 23D. That is an excellent fit for the ML and we tow at 55mph and see 16+ mpg. I stopped by CanAm on the way back from the east coast dealership and Andy Thompson fine-tuned the rig. It drives like it is on rails.

The phrase for the ML is great handling, the phrase for the Ram is ponderous. That represents to me two entirely different mind sets when driving.

There seems to be a mindset in the US truck designers that a higher truck sells, but glosses over the handling issues. Trucks have a much higher COG which does nothing to improve handling at highway speeds. If a truck was only driving at slow speeds, like on construction sites, that is not an issue. At our Interstate speeds it is an issue.

They have really pushed the limits on the one ton models saying they can have 30,000 pound combined weight. 18,000+ pound trailers are a lot of push for an under 10,000 pound pickup. I see the really wise folks acquiring full sized semi truck style tractors that are designed to handle these higher weights and have much bigger brakes to more effectively stop these heavy rigs.

But, hey. It is your money and life, and we all have to make trade offs. Hopefully no one is hurt by our decisions…..
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:10 AM   #165
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Using the two extremes where the favored vehicle excels doesn't add much to the conversation, but a head to head comparison where both vehicle types are good choices is and the proponents of European SUV's generally shy away from that area. You don't have to go beyond Bonno's own admissions to see how his X5 is struggling to keep up with a 250 class. He reiterates that he must keep his speed below 55 and uses California law to justify it, but then often mentions he must watch coolant temperature carefully on steep grades in hot weather. Also admits to not able to maintain speed or have any acceleration on steep grades. Points out that torque is max at 55mph in appropriate gear. In other words he is admitting his vehicle is at its performance limit with the 25 footer. Contrast that with my Ram 2500. Even on the steepest Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming grades, at 65-70 mph and 90F my rigs oil temperature climbs 6 degrees, water 4 degrees, Transmission 15 degrees. Plenty of stopping and acceleration power to avoid slow vehicles. Steering response is much improved over the detuned empty truck settings. Cross wind induced sway is easily managed even in Wyoming with 80+mph gusts. My 230 hp exhaust brake, the computer controlled transmission and trailer brake controller, and oversized disks will decelerate this load 20% faster at highway speeds. Infrequent need for friction brakes means no brake fade even on the steepest grades. Honestly, towing 7700 lbs, I don't know of a single objective measure where the X5 setup outperforms a 250 class for practical towing concerns. Opinions are one thing but the facts don't lie.

But really its worse because on reasonable trips with my 25 foot trailer, I'm hauling a tad over 8000 with all the gear I will use so the X5 can't even be used.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:51 AM   #166
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Also admits to not able to maintain speed or have any acceleration on steep grades. Cross wind induced sway is easily managed even in Wyoming with 80+mph gusts. Honestly, towing 7700 lbs, I don't know of a single objective measure where the X5 setup outperforms a 250 class for practical towing concerns. Opinions are one thing but the facts don't lie.
These are non-issues for our specific TV. With 500hp and even more torque we were rolling 70-80mph on our way to the Canadian Rockies and able to accelerate uphill around several other campers that were slowing down. Twice I had semi trucks blow our tow mirrors in without any sway. I was sure the wind gusts twirling the windmills in Montana were going to give me problems but never felt a thing.
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Old 02-18-2020, 09:36 AM   #167
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That's great Mr. Merk? And nice job of moving the goalpost too.

Also FYI, the strong,variable pulsating winds you need to worry are the ones where the windmills are all shutdown to protect them from bearing damage.
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Old 02-18-2020, 10:16 AM   #168
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LOL

You are not able to get only a couple of facts right. 55 mph is speed limit when towing in California. I tow on 60 mph cruise control. My trailer is 33 ft tongue to bumper, not 25 ft. This is jayco. Any airstream would tow even easier.

Sure, when towing 8 miles at 9 grade in average (sometimes 13 grade), I watched the temps. Only a fool would not do it in 95F heat. I slowed down to keep temps down. Guess what, all trucks designed for towing did it as well. I was even faster then some of them. Not intentionally, I kept optimal speed. Even if I had 100 hp less and would need to slow down more, that would be fine, because I care about handling not speed uphill.

Diesel exhaust brake? Sure, since your standard brakes are so poor performance, you need to have sth else to use. But hey, of course you are aware that in some circumstances exhaust brakes are not safe to use? Of course you do... you said your car has oversized disks? Please do not embarrass yourself.


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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Using the two extremes where the favored vehicle excels doesn't add much to the conversation, but a head to head comparison where both vehicle types are good choices is and the proponents of European SUV's generally shy away from that area. You don't have to go beyond Bonno's own admissions to see how his X5 is struggling to keep up with a 250 class. He reiterates that he must keep his speed below 55 and uses California law to justify it, but then often mentions he must watch coolant temperature carefully on steep grades in hot weather. Also admits to not able to maintain speed or have any acceleration on steep grades. Points out that torque is max at 55mph in appropriate gear. In other words he is admitting his vehicle is at its performance limit with the 25 footer. Contrast that with my Ram 2500. Even on the steepest Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming grades, at 65-70 mph and 90F my rigs oil temperature climbs 6 degrees, water 4 degrees, Transmission 15 degrees. Plenty of stopping and acceleration power to avoid slow vehicles. Steering response is much improved over the detuned empty truck settings. Cross wind induced sway is easily managed even in Wyoming with 80+mph gusts. My 230 hp exhaust brake, the computer controlled transmission and trailer brake controller, and oversized disks will decelerate this load 20% faster at highway speeds. Infrequent need for friction brakes means no brake fade even on the steepest grades. Honestly, towing 7700 lbs, I don't know of a single objective measure where the X5 setup outperforms a 250 class for practical towing concerns. Opinions are one thing but the facts don't lie.

But really its worse because on reasonable trips with my 25 foot trailer, I'm hauling a tad over 8000 with all the gear I will use so the X5 can't even be used.
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:15 AM   #169
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I suppose I should have described trailers only by weight, my 25' trailer is also not 25' bumper to tongue. Sorry but you did describe towing uphill between 45 and 55 mph. Guess what? I have never had to slow down due to coolant temperature increases even at 105 on an extended 9% grade, so it is incorrect to say all trucks must slow for temperatures.

Trucks have relatively poor stopping performance when they are not hauling loads but it is not because the brakes perform poorly. This is because the suspension configurations and tires are designed for managing heavy loads and can't provide sufficient grip to take advantage of the brakes capable of stopping loads almost 4 times base. However unlike your vehicle, stopping distance does not increase appreciably for 250 class trucks with increasing payloads.

The computer controls the exhaust brake, transmission, trailer brake, and ABS as a coupled system and avoids situations where exhaust brake force could possibly overpower rear tire traction.

No embarrassment here the brake disks are sized for 10,000 GVWR and 25,000 GCWR.

When talking apples to apples, towing 7700 your SUV isn't so impressive.
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:44 AM   #170
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I guess weíre back to mine is better than yours. Ainít the internet wonderful. .

But really I donít expect my F350 to handle like my 911. Nor my 911 to haul like my F350. The wifeís SUV is in the middle on both figuratively.
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Old 02-18-2020, 12:04 PM   #171
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I guess weíre back to mine is better than yours. Ainít the internet wonderful. .

But really I donít expect my F350 to handle like my 911. Nor my 911 to haul like my F350. The wifeís SUV is in the middle on both figuratively.
Same! I drive a full-size truck every day and have an '88 Carrera for beating on. Wife drives the Cayenne Turbo every day. (Not to be outdone, she also has a 997 4S)
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Old 02-18-2020, 02:41 PM   #172
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Regardless of what other car you drive, what your spouse, girlfriend, lover drives, this won't improve poor handling of truck.

Another laughable believe is that braking performance or handling of truck improves when towing. There is no miracle possible. Poor braking and handling regardless of whether or not you are towing. Towing can only impair performance.

Hey guys, tow with whatever you want. I am not on mission to save the world. Just be aware of truck design flaws when towing.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:12 PM   #173
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sorry bono you just failed Physics 101. Increasing tire traction with a additional static and dynamic load can and does dramatically improve braking capability on vehicles with initially poor coefficients of friction due to light weight, stiff tires or both.

bono think about those truck design flaws while watching your coolant temperature gauge climb, speculating about maybe overheating your transmission, worrying about brake fade and wondering if variable side winds might send you off the road all while trying to delude yourself into thinking your set-up is ideal for towing a 7700 lb load.

Meanwhile, I have no illusion my 2500 will perform at 110mph on the autobahn, but I'll safely cruise around at safe and recommended towing speeds, marveling at how steady the gauges are, how sure the vehicle negotiates grades and curves, how stable it is in variable winds, how well it accelerates and decelerates without any loss in engine or brake performance. And no wonder its pulling 7300 lb with another 1000 lb of gear against a 17,000 lb limit.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:27 PM   #174
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This would apply to any other car, i.e. according to your logic putting additional load will improve braking. If by default truck braking is embarrassing, hitching up will result also with embarrassing result comparing to other tow vehicles. Friction between tires and the road is not everything. These cars are designed for cruising on highways. They are designed for hauling stuff from home depot or farm jobs.


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sorry bono you just failed Physics 101. Increasing tire traction with a additional static and dynamic load can and does dramatically improve braking capability on vehicles with initially poor coefficients of friction due to light weight, stiff tires or both.

(...)
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:39 PM   #175
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LOL

You are not able to get only a couple of facts right. 55 mph is speed limit when towing in California. I tow on 60 mph cruise control. My trailer is 33 ft tongue to bumper, not 25 ft. This is jayco. Any airstream would tow even easier.

Sure, when towing 8 miles at 9 grade in average (sometimes 13 grade), I watched the temps. Only a fool would not do it in 95F heat. I slowed down to keep temps down. Guess what, all trucks designed for towing did it as well. I was even faster then some of them. Not intentionally, I kept optimal speed. Even if I had 100 hp less and would need to slow down more, that would be fine, because I care about handling not speed uphill.

Diesel exhaust brake? Sure, since your standard brakes are so poor performance, you need to have sth else to use. But hey, of course you are aware that in some circumstances exhaust brakes are not safe to use? Of course you do... you said your car has oversized disks? Please do not embarrass yourself.
None of the issues that you raise concern to me while towing my AS 25 with full cargo. My RAM 2500's Tow/Haul mode takes care of engine braking and my temp gauge needle never moves, even in 100F+ weather.

The rear Auto Leveling/Alternate Trailer Height combined with the Equalizer hitch keeps thing straight and steady. My friends that moved from loaded and very well equipped Porsche Cayenne and VW Touareges wanted to feel good about their German SUVs but were frankly ecstatic when they moved to RAM 2500 diesels.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:01 PM   #176
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This would apply to any other car, i.e. according to your logic putting additional load will improve braking. If by default truck braking is embarrassing, hitching up will result also with embarrassing result comparing to other tow vehicles. Friction between tires and the road is not everything. These cars are designed for cruising on highways. They are designed for hauling stuff from home depot or farm jobs.
Nonsense bono you already got a failing grade in physics 101, now you're just embarrassing yourself. Unfortunately your ego won't let you see that. There is so little truth associated with what you just said, it's hardly worth addressing.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:07 PM   #177
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This argument is always fun and entertaining. Comparing the two vehicles not towing the SUV will easily out handle the truck no question. The only mode of stability that matters as a single vehicle is the static mode. Once you add a conventional trailer everything changes you now have both dynamic and static modes of stability to contend with. All the things helped the SUV perform in the vertical plane now becomes secondary to what’s going on in the horizontal plane. The longitudinal position of COG of both the TV and the trailer becomes far more important in controlling both modes of stability then the vertical position of the COG of the TV alone. Now I’m not saying it has no effect at all, but it cannot over come large deficiencies in the horizontal plane. When comparing the two vehicles coupled to a trailer, the longer wheelbase (35 in. +) of the truck along with its 2,000lbs + extra mass of becomes a better means of controlling both modes stability simultaneously. Lateral dynamics trumps the vertical while towing unless it’s complete design failure. Quite frankly you’re fooling yourself if you think using a WDH to try and smash a nearly $200k rig into the ground to make it handle is a viable solution.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:16 PM   #178
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Seems like there's always a guy in a noisy HD diesel coming into the campground too late and taking forever to get his rig parked. Then, the same guy starts his diesel rattle trap before the crack of dawn and let's it idle all morning for no apparent reason. Drives me nuts. Much like this thread that I chose to read.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:11 PM   #179
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Seems like there's always a guy in a noisy HD diesel coming into the campground too late and taking forever to get his rig parked. Then, the same guy starts his diesel rattle trap before the crack of dawn and let's it idle all morning for no apparent reason. Drives me nuts. Much like this thread that I chose to read.


Iím literally laughing out loud (or LOling as the kids say) as a diesel driver (who never gets in after dark and prefers to wake at the crack of noon). I so know the annoying sound youíre talking about - and relating it to this thread was absolutely perfect!

Well played! You win the interwebs today!
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:55 PM   #180
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Super funny... and unfortunately true...

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Seems like there's always a guy in a noisy HD diesel coming into the campground too late and taking forever to get his rig parked. Then, the same guy starts his diesel rattle trap before the crack of dawn and let's it idle all morning for no apparent reason. Drives me nuts. Much like this thread that I chose to read.
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