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Old 02-15-2020, 10:40 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by bono View Post
Regardless what definition you use, whether you say that majority of vehicles are not optimized for towing, any German big SUV will handle towing better than comparable towing capacity truck. SUV will handle better (e.g. in emergency situation), brake better (often people claim that regardless of SUV towing capacity you man have problems with stopping the trailer. This is laughable given braking performance SUV vs truck).

I said this before and repeat- if you tow above 7,500 lbs, 5th wheel or you don't want to manage tongue weight, suv may not be an option. It is good to know these trade offs tough.
Now, you're just stacking the deck by deliberately and carefully setting boundary conditions to guarantee an outcome that favors your bias. I do appreciate that you have shifted from saying "Pickup trucks are not designed for towing" to instead stating the rather obvious "Pick-up truck configurations are not optimized for towing only".
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:04 AM   #122
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Absolutely, trucks are not designed for towing. As I said, they are designed for hauling cargo in the back. If they would be, they would not be as high as they are, would not have long rear overhang, would have better suspension, better tires, better brakes, etc. The fact that one ton truck have a high payload does not mean it is designed for towing. It means it was designed for hauling heavy cargo in the bed.

I know that I am saying things 98% of population will not agree with. I did not grow up around trucks. They don't have any appeal for me. Maybe therefore I notice things others don't want to see.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:34 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by bono View Post
Absolutely, trucks are not designed for towing. As I said, they are designed for hauling cargo in the back. If they would be, they would not be as high as they are, would not have long rear overhang, would have better suspension, better tires, better brakes, etc. The fact that one ton truck have a high payload does not mean it is designed for towing. It means it was designed for hauling heavy cargo in the bed.

I know that I am saying things 98% of population will not agree with. I did not grow up around trucks. They don't have any appeal for me. Maybe therefore I notice things others don't want to see.
Just to be clear, if they were not "designed" for towing they would not have a hitch, they would not have a place to hook up lights, they would not have a structure in place that allows fifth wheel hitch installation, they would not have transmission coolers, and so forth. Again, the word you are looking for is "optimized", not "designed". Unless you have re-defined what the word "designed" means.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:08 PM   #124
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Indeed, bono wears his bias like a cheap suit.
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Old 02-15-2020, 02:40 PM   #125
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A PU cannot tow 'cuz there is no 'load' in the rear?

For all the xspurts...if TW is not a TV 'load' just what is it and where does it end up?

Bob
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:09 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by bono View Post
Absolutely, trucks are not designed for towing. As I said, they are designed for hauling cargo in the back. If they would be, they would not be as high as they are, would not have long rear overhang, would have better suspension, better tires, better brakes, etc. The fact that one ton truck have a high payload does not mean it is designed for towing. It means it was designed for hauling heavy cargo in the bed.

I know that I am saying things 98% of population will not agree with. I did not grow up around trucks. They don't have any appeal for me. Maybe therefore I notice things others don't want to see.
Wouldn't you agree that a fifth-wheel configuration is better than a rear hitch for medium to long trailers? And can you do that with an SUV? Would you then say that a 3/4 ton or 1 ton towing on a fifth wheel hitch is inferior for towing than an SUV?
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:24 PM   #127
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touche to both of you.
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:30 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Indeed, bono wears his bias like a cheap suit.

Yes he does.

Experiment: Search Google Images for "BMW X5 towing capacity." You'll see that many of them are for 'bono' (or his alias on other forums.) For some reason he's the biggest BMW towing fanboi online.

So he's towing a trailer that's barely within his weight rating and chugs along at 55MPH. That's fine - it can be done. I don't care what people tow with and the rule "tow with what you've got" certainly applies - but I'd feel best with a 250/2500 class truck. (Disclosure: don't have one yet)

Anecdotal evidence I know, but I have yet to see a Euro SUV towing a trailer here in the USA. Also all the guys in the building trades only tow with trucks. Now if I lived in Europe I'm sure the BMW/Mercedes examples would be plentiful, likely very expensive to get a truck
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Old 02-15-2020, 10:53 PM   #129
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Speed limit when towing is exactly 55 mph in California. Thanks for reminding us.

If I would be farmer, had cleaning company or would be contractor, most likely I would get truck in the US (to haul stuff in the back). I can assure you that in Europe people are not interested in getting trucks for many reasons. Trucks being expensive is definitely not one of them. I do not know personally any European who would consider a truck as a daily driver or a car for personal use. Another reason is that trucks are overpriced, i.e. it does not make any sense to pay what you need to pay for poor driving experience (terrible handling, poor braking).
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:24 PM   #130
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Lessons learned - Mercedes GL450 to RAM 2500

Well, in my case, Iím an American. I do computer stuff for a living, even into my current retirement. Always have had a pickup truck of some sort, usually Toyota or maybe GMC in the family. I use them to haul trailers of all sorts, carry home improvement materials, and haul family and dogs as needed.

My wife actually bought and paid for our first modern pickup truck, a 2008 Toyota Tacoma, long bed, 2x4, crewmax.

It handled great, towed our current trailer perfectly, and the only reason we got rid of it was that we obtained a newer one. The new one has 4 wheel drive, a short bed, and a crew cab which gives us plenty of room, cargo capacity, fuel economy, great handling, etc. It also has anti skid and electronic antisway, a sport suspension, and aftermarket LED lighting. It a very solid vehicle.

Personally, Iíd never consider a European SUV, or any SUV, for that matter, for hauling our Airstream. Maybe Iím biased, but in my opinion, most SUVs are overpriced, overhyped and not big enough or versatile enough for my current needs.

So, in the interest of not wasting more time, kindly realize that huge trucks or European SUVs are not the right solution for everyone. Iím happy with my Toyota Tacoma. We may go to a Tundra some day, but when we do, thatís OUR choice.

No matter which truck I tow with, it will be equipped with a ProPride WD and sway prevention system like our current setup, plus all the improvements I have made, like remotely controlled power WD jacks and a three-camera system on the Airstream to improve visibility around it on the road.

If someone else is happy with some sort of SUV, Iím glad.

Just please donít forget that not everyone wants the same type of vehicle, and they will not consider one, protestations to the contrary by anyone not involved in deciding, and paying for some other vehicle. My toys, my money, my choice...
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:36 AM   #131
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I think Bono's point was that modern pickups incorporate design choices that have been made more for cargo capacity, than towing performance. It doesn't mean those pickups can't tow; in fact, if you need to bring along a lot of cargo, they are often the only choice (although I would look for a heavy van with lower load height and secure storage, myself).

The compromises typical pickups have include the live rear axle (for cargo capacity and lower cost) and the resulting narrow suspension stance (less stable). Add in the current fashion to make trucks ever taller, with the resulting higher CoG, and towing performance suffers even more. But if you need to carry large amounts of cargo, and particularly if you want to carry full fuel containers, there isn't much else to choose from.

My contribution to this thread was in response to the claim that Euro SUVs were not designed for towing. They were and are, and the features that were designed in (not options, but rather standard equipment) were available in the early 2000s, long before pickups had similar features.

One of the early adopters here was poster withidl. Search on his user name for long discussions of his E53 X5 towing his AS Classic 31 for tens of thousands of miles. It is amusing how similar the discussion was ten years back. His was a heavier trailer; I believe he also added a built in generator under the dinette. He posted all the performance and maintenance records over many years. His posts, over many years, show that there have been lots of supporters of the Euro SUV approach.
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Old 02-16-2020, 04:27 PM   #132
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As the OP of this thread, let me add some perspective and feedback from my own experience. I have all the three vehicles being discussed here on our driveway, X5, GL450, and RAM2500. I have been towing our AirStream with our GL450 for the last 1.5 years, and I just had the experience of doing a couple of hundred miles of towing to a higher altitude this weekend; in fact, I am posting this from a campground. The towing experience with RAM 2500 was absolutely delightful compared to towing with our GL450. I didn't even feel the trailer behind me. The whole rig felt like one unit; I had never felt that with GL450, and I am using the same Equalizer Hitch. I don't say this lightly, GL450 is still my favorite vehicle.

Also, towing is absolutely one of the primary design considerations for the pickup trucks compared to SUVs. A RAM 2500 Laramie Cummins has a torque of 850lb-ft and a payload of 2200 lbs; I hope we are not saying that the heavy-duty radiator and massive amount of torque are there to haul that meager 2200 lbs. It's there to take care of that 18,000 lbs of load on a trailer behind it. Having an argument about using SUV for towing because someone doesn't want to have a truck as a daily driver due to size, handling, etc. is one thing, but claiming that towing isn't a major design consideration for trucks, to support the SUV argument, is just wrong. As mentioned before, I was in the SUV camp too, and don't think that it's not doable, but I had never towed with a 3/4 truck. I would suggest doing at least a test tow to everyone before forming a strong opinion against one; the difference is phenomenal.

I'll be sharing more about my towing and overall experience with RAM 2500 after our trip to Zion NP, but for now, I can say that we have been pleased with RAM 2500 so far. On the flip side, one challenge has been the turning radius, especially after GL450, which can turn on a dime. The other issue, especially for my wife, is to get used to getting into such a tall truck, the side step is pretty good, but it still feels odd. The RAM Box has been fantastic; every AirStreamer wants more lockable space. For those who are interested in fuel consumption, we were averaging ~12 mpg while towing. I'll leave this post on a happy note with this lovely picture of the rig at the campsite.
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Old 02-16-2020, 05:12 PM   #133
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We added power running boards to our 2500 Ram. Love them.
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Old 02-16-2020, 05:41 PM   #134
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Don't forget to talk up the 230HP exhaust brake and the indestructible computer controlled 6 speed transmission that in combination makes use of the friction brakes almost unneeded except on the sharpest corners. When you do use the brake the electric brake controller dynamically adjusts trailer braking to so that trailer inertia is managed at the axles where it belongs. Did I mention that I love my Cummings Ram 2500?
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:01 PM   #135
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Ashar,

Glad itís a positive experience for you.

Iím in a slightly similar situation but my Cummins is 15 years old and theyíll find the only key for it in my hands.

Gary
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:47 PM   #136
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Hi AShar, I hope you are enjoying your time when camping!

I do not think we will agree on what we disagree. Before I bought my trailer, I test drove F150 and F250. The first one was soft, second was very stiff. I can see how people feel "safe" when towing with F250. This car provides stability when going straight, but it is awful to make ANY emergency maneuvers (if it is even possible). I bet M1 Abrams would provide a lot of stability when towing as well. Such handling is simply not acceptable for me.

If somebody claims that high center of gravity, primitive suspension, poor performance brakes, long rear overhang, soft tall tires are primary design considerations for towing... then we have different views on physics and what is important for towing. Massive radiator and massive torque are not necessary for towing (in particular for towing 25 ft AS). Not that long time ago, sedans with 100 HP were towing AS. Much more important is how the vehicle behaves on the road (see above my observations from test driving trucks). The stiffness of 3/4 ton only masks poor handling.

Let's leave trucks - you shared your observations from the time when towing with GL. You said that your GL was struggling when going up Highway 17. I do not have any problem going 55 mph uphill (speed limit is 50) with SOB (Jayco) 7,000+ lbs trailer. Last summer I towed my trailer to Shaver Lake. I believe this is 8 miles uphill 8 grade in average (sometimes 13 grade). No problem for X5 towing 7,000+ lbs trailer. Sure, I watched the temps very closely. It was 95F outside. I slowed down to 40-45 mph and I was still faster than some of the trucks.

That's true that I need to watch TW very closely. That's true that I need to travel light and I am able to take my house to the campground. This is definitely not solution for everyone. However, if somebody tells me that only trucks can tow, I can only laugh

Again, happy camping!


Quote:
Originally Posted by AShar View Post
As the OP of this thread, let me add some perspective and feedback from my own experience. I have all the three vehicles being discussed here on our driveway, X5, GL450, and RAM2500. I have been towing our AirStream with our GL450 for the last 1.5 years, and I just had the experience of doing a couple of hundred miles of towing to a higher altitude this weekend; in fact, I am posting this from a campground. The towing experience with RAM 2500 was absolutely delightful compared to towing with our GL450. I didn't even feel the trailer behind me. The whole rig felt like one unit; I had never felt that with GL450, and I am using the same Equalizer Hitch. I don't say this lightly, GL450 is still my favorite vehicle.

Also, towing is absolutely one of the primary design considerations for the pickup trucks compared to SUVs. A RAM 2500 Laramie Cummins has a torque of 850lb-ft and a payload of 2200 lbs; I hope we are not saying that the heavy-duty radiator and massive amount of torque are there to haul that meager 2200 lbs. It's there to take care of that 18,000 lbs of load on a trailer behind it. Having an argument about using SUV for towing because someone doesn't want to have a truck as a daily driver due to size, handling, etc. is one thing, but claiming that towing isn't a major design consideration for trucks, to support the SUV argument, is just wrong. As mentioned before, I was in the SUV camp too, and don't think that it's not doable, but I had never towed with a 3/4 truck. I would suggest doing at least a test tow to everyone before forming a strong opinion against one; the difference is phenomenal.

I'll be sharing more about my towing and overall experience with RAM 2500 after our trip to Zion NP, but for now, I can say that we have been pleased with RAM 2500 so far. On the flip side, one challenge has been the turning radius, especially after GL450, which can turn on a dime. The other issue, especially for my wife, is to get used to getting into such a tall truck, the side step is pretty good, but it still feels odd. The RAM Box has been fantastic; every AirStreamer wants more lockable space. For those who are interested in fuel consumption, we were averaging ~12 mpg while towing. I'll leave this post on a happy note with this lovely picture of the rig at the campsite.
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Old 02-16-2020, 11:48 PM   #137
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We added power running boards to our 2500 Ram. Love them.
Which power running boards did you add? I am interested in doing that upgrade.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:26 AM   #138
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:35 AM   #139
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Which power running boards did you add? I am interested in doing that upgrade.
check out AMP Research.. good stuff
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:41 AM   #140
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Itís unfortunate that some folks on this forum look down their noses at people who do it ďdifferently ď than they do. Iím one who ďbrings the houseĒ as someone derisively put it on this thread. An SUV will not work for me, especially on our longer trips.
As for me my F350 with topper and slide tray does the trick pulling our 28í AS with bikes, generators Pelican cooler and, later, kayaks. Donít need to limit myself to 55 either as Iím not in the peopleís republic of Kalifornia.

If an SUV works for you, great. Have at it.

All of dissing trucks is nothing but hot air, IMHO.
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