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Old 02-12-2020, 02:15 PM   #101
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Exactly. No Euro SUV is design for towing.

Design goals:
- Comfort
- Looks
- Power
- Handling

Sure they offer a tow hitch so the vehicle will look the part but I'd never tow with a mid-size SUV. Only American body-on-frame vehicles are designed for towing.
My 2003 X5 (E53) was introduced in 1999 as a 2000 model. It was rated for 7700 lbs towing, according to the German TUV standard, which included a 12% grade test. There was no towing package, all models met that spec as shipped. It had trailer stability control designed into the vehicle dynamic stability control, as standard, not an option. When you connected the trailer wiring harness, it disabled the rear park sensors so the trailer didn’t cause continuous beeping. The rear view camera had a trailer connection mode which shifted the field of view to the hitch ball. This was all many years before US manufacturers dreamed of offering these features, let alone included them as standard equipment, which they still don’t.

That vehicle had a very short rear overhang, and a wide suspension stance, which made it well suited for towing. It had a payload just under 1500 lbs. My X3 had all the same towing features (except the rear camera) in a smaller size, with 1100 lbs payload. Both those vehicles were designed for towing, and better suited for towing, than a friend’s RAM 1500 ecodiesel, which was used to tow an AS 27, despite the sub 1000 lb payload. It was a US body on frame vehicle, if one ignores the FIAT ownership and Italian diesel engine.

And your position is that Euro SUVs aren’t designed for towing? Lol. That opinion isn’t supported by facts. Not only are they well suited and designed for towing, but they showed the US manufacturers how to do it.
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:02 PM   #102
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My 2003 X5 (E53) was introduced in 1999 as a 2000 model. It was rated for 7700 lbs towing, according to the German TUV standard, which included a 12% grade test. There was no towing package, all models met that spec as shipped. It had trailer stability control designed into the vehicle dynamic stability control, as standard, not an option. When you connected the trailer wiring harness, it disabled the rear park sensors so the trailer didn’t cause continuous beeping. The rear view camera had a trailer connection mode which shifted the field of view to the hitch ball. This was all many years before US manufacturers dreamed of offering these features, let alone included them as standard equipment, which they still don’t.

That vehicle had a very short rear overhang, and a wide suspension stance, which made it well suited for towing. It had a payload just under 1500 lbs. My X3 had all the same towing features (except the rear camera) in a smaller size, with 1100 lbs payload. Both those vehicles were designed for towing, and better suited for towing, than a friend’s RAM 1500 ecodiesel, which was used to tow an AS 27, despite the sub 1000 lb payload. It was a US body on frame vehicle, if one ignores the FIAT ownership and Italian diesel engine.

And your position is that Euro SUVs aren’t designed for towing? Lol. That opinion isn’t supported by facts. Not only are they well suited and designed for towing, but they showed the US manufacturers how to do it.

So they change the behavior of the backup camera and beeper? That's all?

I'd tow with that if escaping a hurricane but I'd never _pick_ a BMW as a tow vehicle. I totally understand "tow with what you have" but these are definitely at the lighter end of the scale. It's basically like towing with a Tacoma.

Better be sure to have air suspension otherwise the passengers alone will account for that 850lb payload:
https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1567155
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:47 PM   #103
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You are spot on Ashar, A truck is absolutely designed for towing. From an engineering perspective there isn't a vehicle alive that doesn't want the tongue right over the rear axle, like a goose neck or a semi, but if you want the nostalgia of a silver bullet you have make some trade-offs, live on the edge, take some risk. Fortunately humans are clever people and they provide some engineered solutions to such problems, so they tune the steering to favor a bit of extra weight in the front so dumb asses can drive their empty pickups way faster and way crazier than they should and then they make these WD hitches so you can push that weight back up there so when you hook up these beautiful aluminum homes you still get reasonable handling, don't let the ignorant folks tell you any different.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:46 PM   #104
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Funny, how these two sentences nicely play with each other. Greetings to those who get the joke

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You are spot on Ashar, A truck is absolutely designed for towing. (...) don't let the ignorant folks tell you any different.
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:52 PM   #105
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So they change the behavior of the backup camera and beeper? That's all?

I'd tow with that if escaping a hurricane but I'd never _pick_ a BMW as a tow vehicle. I totally understand "tow with what you have" but these are definitely at the lighter end of the scale. It's basically like towing with a Tacoma.

Better be sure to have air suspension otherwise the passengers alone will account for that 850lb payload:
https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1567155
No, they didn't change anything. The standard model was fully capable; one didn't need to spec a "towing package" to utilize the full capability of the vehicle. Sorry, was that not clear? Derating for vehicles not equipped with a towing package is a feature of US vehicles. I read that your claim was that Euro SUVs are not designed for towing. False. By contrast, US trucks are generally not designed for towing, but one can order optional packages to compensate, if one chooses that path.

I didn't have a G05, it was an E53, as noted. The E70 had similar capabilities. The F15 came after that. Then the G5. Each had a model year run of about seven years. You had to go four generations to find an example of a lower payload?
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:35 AM   #106
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If you read all posts, you would realize that the designer / manufacturer of BMW X5 (BMW AG, not BMW North America), claim that BMW X5 40i has the payload (Zuladung) of 765 kg = 1,687 lbs or 895 kg = 1,973 lbs with air suspension.

Marketing company, i.e. BMW of North America may have problems with converting kg to lbs.

https://www.bmw.de/content/dam/bmw/m...e_01%20(2).pdf

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Originally Posted by Kalashnikov View Post
(...)

Better be sure to have air suspension otherwise the passengers alone will account for that 850lb payload:
https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1567155
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:09 AM   #107
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Funny, how these two sentences nicely play with each other. Greetings to those who get the joke
It's one thing to be snarky. But it's not cool when you have to change context and make someone look as though they said things completely different than they did.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:18 AM   #108
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What you are talking about? First you made the statement that a truck is designed for towing (which I do not agree with). Then you explained why (I think, although I do not really follow this reasoning). They you said suggested that another user do not listen to ignorant folks who claim something different.

Where is the change of the context?

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It's one thing to be snarky. But it's not cool when you have to change context and make someone look as though they said things completely different than they did.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:04 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
No, they didn't change anything. The standard model was fully capable; one didn't need to spec a "towing package" to utilize the full capability of the vehicle. Sorry, was that not clear? Derating for vehicles not equipped with a towing package is a feature of US vehicles. I read that your claim was that Euro SUVs are not designed for towing. False. By contrast, US trucks are generally not designed for towing, but one can order optional packages to compensate, if one chooses that path.

I didn't have a G05, it was an E53, as noted. The E70 had similar capabilities. The F15 came after that. Then the G5. Each had a model year run of about seven years. You had to go four generations to find an example of a lower payload?
Which Airstream do you have and what do you tow it with now?
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:22 PM   #110
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Considering the so called half ton pickup class as tow vehicles is interesting. Many models do not have the net payload capability of the top European SUVs.

Our heavily modified 2015 23D International Serenity has a tongue weight of 928 pounds. My wife and I along with our propane only modified Honda 2000 generator, a grill, camping chairs, and hitching up tools are all inside the 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI turbo diesel powered tow vehicle and still have over a 100 pounds of useful load available and the axles are properly loaded.

Properly setup by Andy Thompson at CanAm in London, Ontario, Canada the rig tows like it is on rails. We tow at 55mph and arrive rested at our destination. When at the destination and disconnected from the 23D, we have a comfortable driver that is small enough to fit in any parking space.

Our heavily modified 2014 31’ Classic initially had a tongue weight of 1,375 pounds.that was close to the ProPride rating of 1,400 pounds so we obviously needed a 2500 series truck. We had selected a 2012 2500HD Cummins diesel powered Ram. After all the modifications to the truck, we had the necessary payload for the tongue weight and everything we we wanted to put in the bed of the pickup.

We limit our speed to 65mph as that is the peak torque point of the Cummins in 6th gear. No matter how one states it, the truck is not as nimble as the Mercedes and is more of a challenge to park when disconnected.

I have no illusions that the Mercedes could tow our Classic, but the Ram can easily tow our 23D. I have a Hensley Arrow stinger from towing our 2013 25FB International Serenity with the Ram. I did tow the new empty 25FB home (using a Hensley Arrow) with the Mercedes from Los Angles to Phoenix and it maintained the posted 55mph climbing the mountain in 4th gear coming out of Palm Springs, CA
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:06 PM   #111
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Which Airstream do you have and what do you tow it with now?
No Airstream. I towed with two different BMW SUVs, E53 and E83, and a series of Ford trucks, including F series 150/250/350 plus 2 Explorers and 2 Expeditions. Past towing has included campers, box trailers, innumerable boats on trailers, flat decks, a 41' boom lift, and once a parade float with 20 people and a band on it, built on a large flat deck (that one was with the X5). Also drove a Ford F series tow truck for work, doing off road recovery, breakdown service, trailer moves, and so on.

I think towing back to back with the SUVs and various light duty trucks provides a reasonable comparison. No direct towing experience with RAM or GM pickups, but experience wrenching on them.
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:44 PM   #112
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What you are talking about? First you made the statement that a truck is designed for towing (which I do not agree with).
I get they you have a very non-conventional definition for the word "design", and this strange definition informs your opinion. To suggest that a vehicle (the X5) with a payload capacity of about 1,400 lbs and a towing capacity of about 7,200 lbs is "designed" or perhaps "more suited" for towing whereas a Ram 2500 diesel tow vehicle which has a payload capacity of about 2,900 lbs and a towing capacity of about 17,700 lb is somehow not intended by the designers to tow is beyond ludicrous. Is it a happy accident you can safely pull a trailered backhoe with my Ram? Did the engineers throw in 230HP of exhaust breaking and over 850 ft-lb of torque for laughs? If it wasn't intended to pull a 17,000 lb trailer what was it intended for a boat anchor?

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Then you explained why (I think, although I do not really follow this reasoning). The[n] you suggested that another user do not listen to ignorant folks who claim something different.
I was speaking to the common criticisms of trucks and the trade-offs engineers must make in designing heavy trailer haulers to satisfy a large segment of the buying public that might from time to time throw a bunch of stuff in the back but never hitch a thing to the vehicle. Then I made a sarcastic comment to those who point to the contortions one must go through to counteract these trade-offs. None of this changes the primary design objectives of trucks.
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:32 PM   #113
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The best tv is a truck - true
The best tv is an SUV - true

Impossible to get a right answer from any one post. Read more you get closer. Read many more and confusion

95% of my miles are not towing. Expert is Andy at CanAM and he likes my 450 GL. He uses one, too. Bought his shank, the EazLift, hitch reinforcement locally verified by him and his excellent hitch install instructions. This is the best tv for me and I will tow at 55 to 60 and not worry. Get camping
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:08 AM   #114
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Truck is designed for hauling the cargo in the back of the vehicle. This is the main purpose of the design. It is difficult not to notice this when looking at a profile of the truck. Truck is not designed for towing because: it has high center of gravity, primitive suspension, long rear overhang. These are elements which directly affect towing performance. There are reports that people have problems with hitching up newer 3/4 ton trucks with 5th wheel due to higher suspension. Is making trucks higher (because it looks cool) a special design for towing?

Why are you comparing BMW X5 with Ram 2500? These are completely different vehicles. BMW X5 will tow 7,700 lbs (European tow capacity) and will safely drive on German autobahn 155 mph. Ram will tow whatever you say it would tow, but the handling is poor, not acceptable for some. If some want to tow trailers above 7,700 lbs, indeed there are not many choices. This is one of the reasons I would never get a heavier trailer. Truck will never be my choice.


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I get they you have a very non-conventional definition for the word "design", and this strange definition informs your opinion. To suggest that a vehicle (the X5) with a payload capacity of about 1,400 lbs and a towing capacity of about 7,200 lbs is "designed" or perhaps "more suited" for towing whereas a Ram 2500 diesel tow vehicle which has a payload capacity of about 2,900 lbs and a towing capacity of about 17,700 lb is somehow not intended by the designers to tow is beyond ludicrous. Is it a happy accident you can safely pull a trailered backhoe with my Ram? Did the engineers throw in 230HP of exhaust breaking and over 850 ft-lb of torque for laughs? If it wasn't intended to pull a 17,000 lb trailer what was it intended for a boat anchor?



I was speaking to the common criticisms of trucks and the trade-offs engineers must make in designing heavy trailer haulers to satisfy a large segment of the buying public that might from time to time throw a bunch of stuff in the back but never hitch a thing to the vehicle. Then I made a sarcastic comment to those who point to the contortions one must go through to counteract these trade-offs. None of this changes the primary design objectives of trucks.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:35 PM   #115
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Truck is designed for hauling the cargo in the back of the vehicle. This is the main purpose of the design. It is difficult not to notice this when looking at a profile of the truck. Truck is not designed for towing because: it has high center of gravity, primitive suspension, long rear overhang. These are elements which directly affect towing performance. There are reports that people have problems with hitching up newer 3/4 ton trucks with 5th wheel due to higher suspension.

Is making trucks higher (because it looks cool) a special design for towing?
As I say, a very non-conventional definition of the word design. In a conventional definition, one would accept all the stated objectives of the designer and not defer to the observational conclusions of a person, with a likely bias, who points out all the trade-offs being made without appropriately weighing them against all the characteristics that support the objective in question. The reality is that trucks are designed to meet multiple objectives and appeal to a large market, so trade-off are common.
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:36 AM   #116
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The 2020 F250 looks amazing! Towing an AS with this would be effortless.



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Old 02-15-2020, 07:26 AM   #117
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I see a European SUV or any SUV to be a adequate tow vehicle if you travel light. It would not work for me, I go for weeks at a time and always want to bring bikes, motor scooter, kayaks. I will give you that the SUV rides better and has more luxury options in my pick up but you sure can’t beat the power or the cargo capacity of a 2500 Chevy. Also when traveling everything breaks eventually and when it does their are more service options for a domestic vehicle.
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Old 02-15-2020, 10:01 AM   #118
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As I say, a very non-conventional definition of the word design. In a conventional definition, one would accept all the stated objectives of the designer and not defer to the observational conclusions of a person, with a likely bias, who points out all the trade-offs being made without appropriately weighing them against all the characteristics that support the objective in question. The reality is that trucks are designed to meet multiple objectives and appeal to a large market, so trade-off are common.
Yes, this is what I stated earlier. I think he means "optimized". No, trucks are not optimized for towing. An X5 is also not optimized for towing. Basically only those tractor trailers that haul semi's are optimized for towing.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:05 AM   #119
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Regardless what definition you use, whether you say that majority of vehicles are not optimized for towing, any German big SUV will handle towing better than comparable towing capacity truck. SUV will handle better (e.g. in emergency situation), brake better (often people claim that regardless of SUV towing capacity you man have problems with stopping the trailer. This is laughable given braking performance SUV vs truck).

I said this before and repeat- if you tow above 7,500 lbs, 5th wheel or you don't want to manage tongue weight, suv may not be an option. It is good to know these trade offs tough.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:24 AM   #120
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That may be so...as long as the co-driver is following along with all the 'payload'.

BTW...I also use an SUV...👍

But what do I know, I'm just an engineer....Without the math.🤓😂

Bob
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