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Old 04-13-2018, 12:12 PM   #21
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1996 25' Excella
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Just finished answering the 1st post in the AS Daily e-mail.
03 Dakota with 250000Km
It works harder on the hills than your Porsche. I change the rear end synthetic and tranny oil every 50000 Km (30K miles) I installed a 22000 BTU cooler on the tranny when new and the oil does not need changing on that schedule but at least I know it is clean and fully serviceable. The cooler is the key. I can pull the dipstick right after a highway run and strip the oil with my fingers.
As for brakes your Porsche was likely designed with brakes to stop the vehicle from 100 MPH in European style driving. They typically don't fail from hard work; they wear out; which you can have checked at your routine oil changes. Frankly the original brakes and discs on a new truck are barely adequate. Anyone who changes them after the very short life on a new vehicle, always upgrades to a higher quality. I'll bet your Porsche already has better brakes than any new US vehicle.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:29 PM   #22
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You might check in on the F250 vs LC thread. Good info on the big Lexus LX570 and Land Cruisers. Have not heard anyone who was not happy with their Porsche. It's an expensive ride, but seems to get the job done. Good Luck on your investigation. Pat
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by StreamingEagle View Post
I currently tow my 25' International with a 2017 Porsche Cayenne with factory tow package. Let me say this, I love towing with my Porsche, I've done over 10K towing miles with it and it's super comfortable and the Airstream (with my BlueOx SP) tows like a champ.

Now here is the rub.... I think that a lot of people that tow with like-vehicles (7,700lbs GVWR SUVs and similar) have the same disillusion that I have had. YES, the TV can TOW (forward) really well (on flats) and is an amazing daily driver. The problem starts to come in the rolling hills and braking. Not that it can't do it, but I think you are crazy I you don't realize that it's working really hard. I had some anxiety of what would happen if I screwed up my trans or brakes in an area that doesn't have a VW or Porsche dealer.

So what to do... Do I continue to push my SUV or get a Big Truck (I'm looking at F250 or Silverado 2500).

Now, to be realistic, buying a big truck is mostly lost on me. It can't be a daily driver because I live in Chicago and it doesn't fit in the garage or really parking anywhere, so I have to keep the Porsche.

I've spent the better part of the month doing research on trucks and what I found there is that there is also a LOT of people who are disillusioned as to what their truck can pull. Since this truck would have to be a long-term investment, I want to ensure that if I want to move up to a 30' Classic that I am adequately sized.

Here is the questions:

* For the big truck owners: Do you find the big truck to be a PIA in backing your Airstream into camp spots? (My little SUV makes it super easy)

* Any former SUV TV owners have anything to add?

* Anyone buy a truck just to tow with?

* Are there any better resources for towing with SUVs? I would like to know if I'm alone in my worries about the transmission, brakes, radiator, etc.


Thoughts?
* Yes. My Ram 3500 Crew Cab with full 8' box has a 169" wheelbase, and it takes forever for the TT to answer the steering wheel while backing up.

* We have a 2017 Volvo XC-90, which *might* be able to tow our Airstream, but it would be pushing every margin of safety and capacity - so no.

* Yes. For the most part, my Ram was special ordered and configured to be the TV for the Airstream, and it does so effortlessly.

The above being said, you have discovered what some of us have been saying all along - it is not just being able to pull, but also being able to stop and handle an emergency maneuver safely. For my 9,000 GVW Classic, I wanted a TV that could handle all of that.

Another consideration is usage. If you are just a weekender and a 2 week vacation camper, a dedicated TV is an expensive toy (to pull your other expensive toy)! We bought our big truck just before I retired with the idea that we can go for the long-haul trips in comfort and safety. And, so far, I am well pleased with my choices.

Also, tied into the above question, is what do you bring with you? Your Porsche has it's hands (and brakes, suspension and transmission) full with TT weight and passengers. No capacity left for much cargo. Because we tend to take longer trips, and like to be self-sufficient for boondocking, we bring multiple tool boxes, 12VDC compressor and 2 2000W Yamaha generators, plus cribbing, supplies, etc. We looked at 3/4 ton trucks originally, but found that, for another $300, we could get a 1 ton with 2,000 lbs more load capacity. We've packed it to the gills, and still had over 1000 lb. safety margin to max GVW.

What we settled on was a 2015 Ram 3500 4x4, as above, with Cummins diesel and 6 speed standard transmission (my preference). I also pimped it out with custom tool boxes, bed cover and bed roller (click on "images" below my avatar). And added an AirSafe to my Equal-i-zer hitch for better ride and more gentle interface between TT & TV.

That's my story. As always, other's mileage may vary...

PS: If you go with a big diesel, you'll *love* the power and torque going uphill and the engine brake going down...
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:30 PM   #24
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truck for towing

I have a 2016 ford f-250 diesel which is used mainly for towing.
I put about 12000 mi. per year on it towing and less than a 1000 mi
for other purposes. Last year being my first year as an RV'er.The supercab fits in my garage, barely.
I love driving this truck ,but having a Mazda CX5, which gets great gas mileage ,means that I don't have to burn cash ( I mean diesel ). It is expensive to drive as a daily driver due to poor fuel economy in the city. However, I did average 20.2 mpg from Chicago to Green Bay and back. 400 mi round tri. But it is not a PIA to drive. Most of the miles not used for towing is due to the fact that I don't want it to sit idle for long periods of time, especially in winter. So I take it out as a Sunday driver. Expensive to own and operate, but a great tow vehicle IMHO. Rock solid with my Equalizer weight distribution hitch, pulling my International 30. I average about 13 mpg in varied terrain (LA to Chicago ). Not any worse than most gas TV,s. Also nice to have for occasionally moving around heavy stuff and actually using it like a pickup.
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:39 PM   #25
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truck for towing

I forgot to mention that it is my daily driver on road trips.
I do not have a major problem backing it up as long as I take the time to line myself up properly first.
I also have my wife guiding me with using a walkie talkie. All directions are given as passenger side and drivers side, not left and right. Never had a problem so far, as long as we stuck to the protocol.
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:05 PM   #26
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Started towing a 25' International Serenity with a Range Rover HSE. Same issues you mentioned, but I could live with the slow up grade climbs, not the curvy downgrades with the AS pushing us into the turns, just didn't feel safe. Then there was the thought of wearing the Rover out prematurely as I began to feel the transmission shifting with a bit of play after a rolling stop.

Bought the F350 diesel and it was totally worth it for the exhaust brake if nothing else. Yes, it is not a daily driver; yes, you have to walk a ways from where you can park; yes, I miss the short wheelbase of the Rover for backing the AS into a tight approach camping site or making a u-turn with the AS on a two lane road.

Bottom line: going to the truck was the best thing I ever did (still have the Rover) for no white knuckle down grades and the bonus was I was able to upgrade to the 30' Classic without any TV considerations. Went with the one-ton for the payload and it rides the same as the 3/4-ton (at least for Fords, can't comment on other brands). Good luck in your quest for the ideal TV.
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:06 PM   #27
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Feel your pain!

We have a 2009 28’ International that we initially towed with our existing 3/4 ton Suburban—the SUV that Chevy/GMC designed as their towing vehicle, with oil cooler,, larger radiator, 39 gal fuel tank, etc We found it generally adequate. It still would heat up (transmission gauge) occasionally on steep Western grades, particular in hot weather, and we learned to climb with moderate revs to keep airflow up and still have enough power. It got terrible mileage-13.5 non towing and 8-9 towing. After replacing the transmission at 70k miles, and replacing the replacement 300 miles later—long story), we worked a deal with our local Chevy service guys and changed the transmission oil annually thereafter for reasonable cost ($150).

We have always had a separate TV because we also need a separate vehicle to carry the family’s windsurf gear. Some of the gear is a bit over 8ft long, so a pickup doesn’t work at all—the ability to have gear enter the 2nd row area of an SUV means all can stay locked inside.

When we felt it was time to shop for a new TV,, we looked at the Denali for the more powerful, better mpg engine, but they made the rear opening just small enough on the new body style that it no longer worked for our gear. We found the Ford Expedition handling too squishy (Andy T. Prefers the independent rear suspension of the Ford Expedition to the single axle GMC’s, btw), and the Toyota Seqoia too short inside for our gear. The Cayenne was drool worthy but way too small inside for our gear.

We opted for a one ton Sprinter (low roof, short wheelbase.) It is the same length as the GMC, and has tons more room for storage, and even at the smaller height, I can bend my head and stand up inside to change. I carefully considered the MUCH lower hp in the small diesel, and with the help of Andy Thompson calculated torque to pavement (figuring effect of larger differential and smaller tires) and calced it to be within 5 ft/lbs of original Suburban. With the difference in cost between the Sprinter cargo van (ordered from factory with mobility package for windows, lights, aux battery, factory lining to feel like SUV) and the Denali, we found a great Sprinter up fitter to carpet interior, build storage cabinets and change bench, upgrade to thermo sensitive foam, Custom leather , seat heaters, three compartment custom console with built in cooler and 8 usb outlets, custom dash, upgraded stereo, custom bolted in easily removable aluminum racks and additional rear aluminum cabinets, and even a fantastic fan to dry out damp gear and keep car cool while we’re on the water (gotta love that sux battery!) With all our gear onboard and all the build inside, we still have over 4,000 lbs of payload to spare!!

My wife (who does half the driving) is convinced that the Sprinter is more solid than the Suburban (duallys help!) . No question that it handles better not towing than the Suburban.

Towing,We definitely don’t push as hard, but find it plenty powerful as long as we’re not in a hurry. Although we have no prob maintaining Texas speed limits if there are no trucks to pass and we have plenty of clear view stopping distance ahead for our 6.5 ton 50 ft rig, we’ve found that dropping the speed makes a huge towing mpg difference—from 10-11 at 70 plus to 14 or a little better at 60. The 144” wheelbase makes backing into small spaces no problem. We pride ourselves at being able to adjust our final parking spot by as little as an inch of width.

Since my daily car is an original model year 2006 Cayman S, my personal solution to your very particular situation is easy. Keep towing with your Cayenne! Had it been spacious enough to handle our gear (which doesn’t apply to you) I would have opted for that as both personal and tow vehicle combined with zero hesitation

Do the math on purchasing an upper end SUV or pickup and sharing the mileage with your Cayenne. Yes, it will reduce mileage on both vehicles to have two, but your service costs will increase, your warranties (including extended) now running out based on time rather than mileage. Depreciation on two pricey vehicles plus initial cash outlay or double payments for two vehicles, double insurance, plus the time and hassle to maintain both.

Now take that new budget and consider replacing your Cayenne right before Porsche extended warranty wears out and see how those numbers look! Drive a bit slower towing in challenging situations as you’ve learned your vehicle likes.

Enjoy the vehicle you love and replace it with a new one more often!
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:21 PM   #28
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If I were in your situation, I would do two things.

1. Install disc brakes in your Airstream. I just installed them in my 66 Tradewind and I am thrilled with the performance.

2. Take your Porsche to Andy and let him work his magic on it.

I sure do wish I had your Porsche to tow my 66 Tradewind rather than my Tundra. If I had a Caravel I would tow it with my 2015 Golf, my daily driver.

The last thing you need is a big honking truck.

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Old 04-13-2018, 08:59 PM   #29
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BMW X5d

tow my caravel with a BMW X5 diesel and love it for towing and as a daily driver.
the X5d has more torque than an ecoboost, and if you check the track, wheel base and vehicle weight you may be surprised at how close it is to the trucks and domestic suvs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringDan View Post
If I were in your situation, I would do two things.

1. Install disc brakes in your Airstream. I just installed them in my 66 Tradewind and I am thrilled with the performance.

2. Take your Porsche to Andy and let him work his magic on it.

I sure do wish I had your Porsche to tow my 66 Tradewind rather than my Tundra. If I had a Caravel I would tow it with my 2015 Golf, my daily driver.

The last thing you need is a big honking truck.

Dan
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:04 PM   #30
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Lack of good SUV TV info making me crazy - SUV to BIG Truck

The “ big trucks are bad”BS gets old on this forum.Same posters same BS.Same old Can Am propaganda glee club.............,,,,,a 1/2 ,3/4 or 1 ton trucks are all light duty trucks.Lol
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:45 PM   #31
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Why would you buy something that you have to call someone to “work their magic” in order to force the vehicle to tow what you want?
Absolutely an SUV can tow. Absolutely is a more comfy ride but, it is no where near as suited to tow a 27’+ trailer the way a 3/4+ ton truck is!

We bought primarily for towing but use daily a Ram 2500 w/diesel.

I have towed w/ SUV, 1/2 ton, Suburban both 1/2 and 3/4 ton, 3/4 and 1ton. I have found the 3/4 fits our needs best while tows superior to all.

It’s about YOUR needs and safety. IMO forcing a vehicle to tow what you want is never the safest endeavor.
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Old 04-14-2018, 07:40 PM   #32
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Lack of good SUV TV info making me crazy - SUV to BIG Truck

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
Why would you buy something that you have to call someone to “work their magic” in order to force the vehicle to tow what you want?


DBinSD

I probably should not have used the words “work their magic”. It is certainly not magic but it is solid engineering. I consider Andy to be an expert in evaluating tow vehicles and tires and modifying tow vehicles to improve their towing capability. What I was suggesting was to have Andy evaluate the OP tow vehicle, tires and hitch set up to see if he would recommend any improvements. None may be needed for towing the OP 25’ Airstream since the weight may be under the 7,700 lb tow rating of the Porsche.

Dan
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Old 04-14-2018, 07:52 PM   #33
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DBinSD

I probably should not have used the words “work their magic”. It is certainly not magic but it is solid engineering. I consider Andy to be an expert in evaluating tow vehicles and tires and modifying tow vehicles to improve their towing capability. What I was suggesting was to have Andy evaluate the OP tow vehicle, tires and hitch set up to see if he would recommend any improvements. None may be needed for towing the OP 25’ Airstream since the weight may be under the 7,700 lb tow rating of the Porsche.

Dan
Hey Dan,
thanks for the response.
The quote I used was not in disrespect I want you to know.

Rather more curiosity. I am sure Andy probably DOES work engineering magic on vehicles.

Unless there is something so extraordinary about a vehicle, I was just not seeing why someone would go through the added expense and effort to have a vehicle modified to tow if it was not originally made to tow?

Dan
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:18 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Unless there is something so extraordinary about a vehicle, I was just not seeing why someone would go through the added expense and effort to have a vehicle modified to tow if it was not originally made to tow?

DBinSD

Because the OP likes the way his Porsche drives and believes that it was designed to tow his Airstream. I think that it really comes down to personal preference. Some folks don’t like driving a truck for various reasons. I fall into this category. I love my Tundra and it does a great job of towing my 66 Tradewind, but I don’t like driving it because it is HUGE. I would tow my Tradewind with my Golf if I could because I just prefer smaller vehicles.

I drive my Tundra if I am carrying stuff that won’t fit in my Golf or towing my Airstream. If not I drive my Golf. My 2008 Tundra only has 88,000 miles on it. My 2015 Golf has 106,000 miles on it. 8,800 miles per year on the Tundra versus 35,000 miles per year on the Golf.

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Old 04-15-2018, 08:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Unless there is something so extraordinary about a vehicle, I was just not seeing why someone would go through the added expense and effort to have a vehicle modified to tow if it was not originally made to tow?

Dan
Same reason we modify classic cars with radial tires and air conditioning, or put bigger engines in for racing etc. There’s nothing wrong with doing sensible modifications, or not. It’s your car.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:18 AM   #36
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Check it out

I find the answer is usually somewhere in between.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/20...l-details-news
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
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-- snip -- why someone would go through the added expense and effort to have a vehicle modified to tow if it was not originally made to tow? --snip --
It's usually not much effort or added expense. Ask the opposite. Why would someone put up with a tow vehicle that won't make a u-turn at an intersection, won't fit in a garage, and requires steps to climb into the seat to drive it. Ego - well, it's more than that.

There is a lot of emphasis placed on engineering, but one issue gets missed. The right engineering design is one that cost effectively meets expectations. To over engineer or rather over specify is a waste for the application. We get sucked into the concept for the sake of safety, that there must be excess capacity. That ignores the fact that the design team used a safety factor. It also ignores the fact that a slight reduction in travel speed increases the safety factor, because it lowers the dynamic forces that the static measurements of towing capacity and tongue weight are used to calculate.

We get suckered into the concept for another reason. We do not have the data that is used to calculate tow capacity and tongue weight. We must assume a lot. Is it the hitch, the durability of the components or the current marketing trend.

For some, it's just the way it is. They like a truck. They have a truck. It serves them well. They will always have a truck. It is not a waste, because they use it for tough work as well as play. It's the right tool for the application. A truck sits high off the ground to protect the drive components from rocks, ruts, mud and water. It needs to be 4 wheel drive to deal with construction site conditions, off road travel and the unknown.

But for others, a truck is a poor solution. Unfortunately, the right solution would be a purpose built tow vehicle with gear and passenger accomodation. It would have a low CG like the Airstream trailer has, good brakes like most performance vehicles use, a short front and rear overhang to get best wheel base and stability, the best suspension technology to keep the contact patch working under all road conditions, tires with stiff side walls to resist latteral movement, and sufficient power to respond when needed but not so much as to be wasteful. I suspect it would look a lot like a minivan.

A good suspension requires a stiff chassis to allow the components to work. A flexible chassis can be used to keep a poor suspension in contact with the road surface. Such is the design of a go/race Kart. They are fast and represent the best performance dollar on the market. However, for this old body, ideal is stiff so the suspension can dampen road shock and smooth the ride while the vehicle does it's job.

The good news is that even the worst tow vehicle when driven with attentive skills and a well tuned lashup can be safe and functional. The good news is that trucks are better now than they were. The good news is that more folks are towing now and with that experience they are learning and sharing information.

It won't be long before the electronics of tow vehicle and trailer will integrate to eliminate sway, disk brakes will be standard on the coach, and electric power will be viable for towing and long distance travel.

But the best news is we still get to make our own decisions. Research all and pick what works for your RV lifestyle. Pat
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:00 AM   #38
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Possibly the best post regarding tow vehicles ever.
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:34 AM   #39
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Regarding SUVs, if that's not a lost cause here, I checked out a couple of 2018 Ford Expeditions a few months ago.

Had power plenty to tow.

Payload was a little over 1,600 pounds on one Expedition, a little under 1,600 on the other.
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:44 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heyraylata View Post
I find the answer is usually somewhere in between.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/20...l-details-news

Good article, thank you.

It is interesting to me although not surprising that that the medium level Diesel Engines are finding there way into American 1/2 ton trucks as the demand appears to be growing. Many if not all of these engine designs have European beginnings coming from what was designed for what we call cars not American trucks. Europe has never made what is known as what we call an American truck. Europe did not or had not found the need for such. Land Rover's 1st Diesel was 52 HP 2.0 Liter, 1957. Rovers were Europe's truck and called such, as they were used in same manor as Americans use there pick up trucks. They just looked different in nature to American pick up trucks.

When Diesel engines were introduced to American pickup trucks as we called/know them. American engineers looked to what was being used in what I will call "Big Trucks, Semi type trucks". Americans design down word in order to "fit" 3/4 ton and up to 2 ton at the time, where as current European type design has been designed up to fit the demands of 1/2 American pick ups. Please note I am referring to Cummins in design. I can not nor will I comment on Ford or GM w/design. This is not to say any are lesser than another.

Today's 1/2 ton trucks are the sweet spot for many that tow and use as a daily driver. With current design these 1/2 ton trucks are pretty amazing as what they can do and what they can handle from light duty to medium duty. The addition of these new small Diesel's in my humble opinion will add another positive level of performance to 1/2 ton pick ups.

Now for the Trivia question...........Who designed and what year for 1st electric car............Dr. Porsche, 1898.............[IMG]file:///C:/Users/sbkbo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
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