Just announced: Electric Chevy Silverado

[Basecamp.20X]

Originally Posted by jcl

When the vehicle knows where the chargers are, and whether they are open, and how many bays at each one are open at that moment, you don’t need to rely on hope. Yes, there are transition issues with this significant societal change. The good news is that the situation is changing so quickly that those transition issues are being addressed at this moment.

I know that many have this concern over range and charging. I was one. But this concern is overwhelmingly expressed by those not dealing with it, but concerned about having to if they go with a BEV. Once people start doing it, there are far fewer concerns. We adapt. The positives far outweigh the negatives. That is why so few EV adopters go back.

I don’t suggest that we have BEVs with good range when towing heavy trailers yet, but things like on street parking, dense areas, and where to charge haven’t generally proven to be the obstacles they are sometimes imagined to be.

Thanks for making my point. Finding a charger in the high country is not happening anytime soon. Can’t even get cell service. My reasons for not purchasing an EV truck at this time have been posted earlier. I guess some folks didn’t read it. [emoji268] One day an off the grid high country explorer may be able to have that portable luxury, but it probably won’t happen anytime soon. I love my Jackery though.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

When the vehicle knows where the chargers are, and whether they are open, and how many bays at each one are open at that moment, you don’t need to rely on hope. Yes, there are transition issues with this significant societal change. The good news is that the situation is changing so quickly that those transition issues are being addressed at this moment.

I know that many have this concern over range and charging. I was one. But this concern is overwhelmingly expressed by those not dealing with it, but concerned about having to if they go with a BEV. Once people start doing it, there are far fewer concerns. We adapt. The positives far outweigh the negatives. That is why so few EV adopters go back.

I don’t suggest that we have BEVs with good range when towing heavy trailers yet, but things like on street parking, dense areas, and where to charge haven’t generally proven to be the obstacles they are sometimes imagined to be.

I get it about the vehicle knowing where the charging stations are, but don't everyone else's vehicle know about the same places too? How do you know when you get there that there will still be an empty charger?

Around here, the nearest place with a charger is about 20 minutes from my house, and that's only if the lights work with me. If I'm off to go somewhere, it's not going to be like stopping at the gas station and filling up. I'm not going to go out of my way to get to a charging point, only to find that there are three others who did the same thing and wait in line. This is the kind of convenience that needs to be there before it takes off in places outside the EV-centric areas of the continent.

Human behavior is what it is, and change will be very difficult. People are not going to give up the convenience and surety of stopping at will to fill the tank to having to essentially schedule their charging appointments or hunt down a charge.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I get it about the vehicle knowing where the charging stations are, but don't everyone else's vehicle know about the same places too? How do you know when you get there that there will still be an empty charger?

If the chargers are networked (as are all the Superchargers, for example, as well as some other charging networks) I look at the online status as I approach a charging station. For Superchargers, the number of empty bays is pushed to the in vehicle navigation map, and updated in real time. Tesla has had Supercharger occupancy info in vehicles since 2017 (first photo). A recent software update put it on the map, and not just in the info box (second photo).

If all Supercharger stalls are full, which happened to me once in two years, the vehicle screen shows the approximate wait time (short/medium/long), and they automatically default the maximum charge level setting in each vehicle to 80% to keep the rotation up.

[richard5933]

I suppose this is great for Tesla owners, if they have time to wait or divert to another charger. If there is one.

What about all the other EVs out there? Is Tesla sharing?

Have you tried this while you're on the way to an important appointment and not in a city in BC or California? Pick any average small city/town in middle America.

The problem I'm having in this conversation is that some people are talking about the types of things likely to be encountered in areas where we live or likely to be traveling and others responding with information from cities with fairly well built out EV systems. Please understand why we are sceptical, at best.

Yes, other areas will get there. But it's important to remember that many parts of the country are still waiting for cell phone service, internet access, and even cable TV.

Many are still living in houses with only 60-amp service. They'd love to upgrade, but the local grid can't supply more so there's no point.

Just how long will it take for people in these vast areas to be able to reliably use an EV as a daily driver?

[Andrew T]

The key to an electric vehicle is it efficiency. I drive 11 miles to work each way. a couple of times a week I drive downtown. About 180 miles a week.

I charge at night using 12 amps of 110 power. or about the difference between the Incandesent lights I used to have and the LED's I have now.

I use more power to run my swimming pool pump for the summer than my annual local driving. so the strain on the grid is not what you would think.

A 3000 watt Honda will recharge the car in about 20 hours. So if you drive 100 miles into the back country for a weekend you can easily recharge for the trip out.

I know using the gen to recharge is using gas but it’s a fraction of the gas a gas vehicle would use and only in those circumstances.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

The key to an electric vehicle is it efficiency. I drive 11 miles to work each way. a couple of times a week I drive downtown. About 180 miles a week.

I charge at night using 12 amps of 110 power. or about the difference between the Incandesent lights I used to have and the LED's I have now.

I use more power to run my swimming pool pump for the summer than my annual local driving. so the strain on the grid is not what you would think.

A 3000 watt Honda will recharge the car in about 20 hours. So if you drive 100 miles into the back country for a weekend you can easily recharge for the trip out.

I know using the gen to recharge is using gas but it’s a fraction of the gas a gas vehicle would use and only in those circumstances.

Not sure I understand how this works...

The implication of what you wrote is that your Honda generator can produce more miles per gallon than a modern gas-powered car.

That generator holds 3.4 gallons. According to the manufacturer's spec it will run for almost 20 hours at 1/4 load. You're talking about a charging rate of 12 amps at 120v which would be just about half load for this generator.

Even if we give the generator the advantage by doing the math at 1/4-load for the time you say it takes to charge your EV (20 hours) you're consuming 3.4 gallons, more or less. My 2015 Subaru average right at 30 mpg, meaning that it can travel about 100 miles on that same 3.4 gallons.

How is your generator accomplishing this on a fraction of the gas a gas vehicle would use? Seems like it's burning right about the same amount to me.

The thing is, it takes a certain amount of energy to move a mass a set distance. The same energy is required regardless of the source. Doesn't matter if that gas is flowing to the tank via a fuel nozzle or through the electric lines from the generator.

Or is your math showing something different?

[Mattedfred]

I'd just like to say that I'm very appreciative of the respectful tone of the latest portion of this thread. It's very helpful to hear every single side of an issue and that enough of you feel comfortable speaking up when you disagree but you do so in a respectful way. Much thanks to richard5933! I hope this discussion continues.

[carl2591]

tru dat.. same here with a 30 gallon main and 36 gallon auz.. was able to fill in large cities and go across the state SD for the most part. long stretches with nothing but cows in the distance.

small town with diesel for the most part as there are a lot of farms and diesel engines running in the area.

can see EV wide spread towing in 5 yrs. especially in the midwest.. I guess if you "run out of gas" in an ev you pop out the solar panels and wait.. LOL... (get it,, sorta like a gas can and a thumb)

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

How about Western South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska….. I had to be careful when I was towing through South Dakota and I have a 36 gallon tank!!

As I said and the CEO of Ford said before EV’s will not catch on in rural areas. Not enough range. Not enough charging stations. Charging takes too long. You get caught in a blizzard like I have been with an EV you are toast. And how the heck do you “fill gas” if you run out to get to the next station? Can’t just grab a 5 gallon can.

[gypsydad]

Following the future here; pretty good discussion...What happens when you need a charge on a trip, the charging stations are filled with customers already, and they are "taking a nap" or "shopping" as some here have suggested as time killing options? I get you can get a call or message on your phone, but what about the guy who was waiting to be next? At a gas station, you just pull in, fill up, and go, with most having accessibility for MH's or TT's; if they don't there is typically one across the street or down the street that does accommodate. Looking for how this one is working or being solved?

[skyguyscott]

Some guy 2000 years ago remarked on the problems of putting new wine in old wine skins. I see the same problems when discussing BEVs in an ICE-centric paradigm -- it really doesn't make much sense, because the infrastructure, habits, and ways of doing things are or soon will be much different.

As I understand it, most charging of BEVs will be done at home overnight, either in a garage or parking space; those that live in high density cities like Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. often use public transport, so for them, it's a non-issue regardless.

For longer trips, the infrastructure is still growing, but already we are seeing a paradigm shift where instead of having a business who's sole purpose is to provide energy (i.e. a "filling station") we see charging stations at stores, restaurants, etc. I believe that within a decade, filling stations that only are filling stations will be facing extinction unless they also provide other services/goods, and likewise, stores and restaurants that offer charge-while-you-park spaces will see increased business, especially from the demographic that can afford and purchase a BEV.

It is true that today, towing an Airstream across the continent to boondock for weeks at a time far from infrastructure isn't terribly practical for BEVs, but that will change. If a number of RV campgrounds aren't already thinking about or planning on upgrading their slots to accommodate BEV TVs, I would be surprised. Look for the first of these to come online within five years. Of course, such infrastructure will (hopefully) never happen on BLM sites.

In the meantime, keep your ICE and use it until it makes sense for you to change. All of these concerns are variations of Range Anxiety, and every BEV manufacturer is aware of and actively solving that problem. Soon it will be a non issue. Years hence, the lack of traditional filling stations will be as unnoticed as the lack of horse stables, blacksmiths and public phone booths.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

...As I understand it, most charging of BEVs will be done at home overnight, either in a garage or parking space; those that live in high density cities like Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. often use public transport, so for them, it's a non-issue regardless.....

This is the bit that can get frustrating...

I'm not sure where the notion comes from that most people living in cities like Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. have such an easy time getting around and/or don't own personal cars? Or that those who do have a car also have a garage or parking space of their own.

True, many who live in the city center rely on mass transit much of the time, but in all of these cities and hundreds others like St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, etc. the majority of people live outside the city center and rely on private vehicles to get around. Just look at Brooklyn or Queens - parts of NYC where a great percentage of residents own private cars.

People who are not from or have never lived in a congested city have no idea what it's like with the nightly battles for parking, the struggles in the winter when snow routes are declared, and all the places you need to go which don't have public transport which is worth a lick.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I suppose this is great for Tesla owners, if they have time to wait or divert to another charger. If there is one.

What about all the other EVs out there? Is Tesla sharing?

Have you tried this while you're on the way to an important appointment and not in a city in BC or California? Pick any average small city/town in middle America.

The problem I'm having in this conversation is that some people are talking about the types of things likely to be encountered in areas where we live or likely to be traveling and others responding with information from cities with fairly well built out EV systems. Please understand why we are skeptical, at best.

Yes, other areas will get there. But it's important to remember that many parts of the country are still waiting for cell phone service, internet access, and even cable TV.

Many are still living in houses with only 60-amp service. They'd love to upgrade, but the local grid can't supply more so there's no point.

Just how long will it take for people in these vast areas to be able to reliably use an EV as a daily driver?

I don't know how long it will take. And it will take longer for multiple BEV chargers to be installed at or on the way to remote boondocking sites. Yes, it is easier in some locations. And pretty much impossible in some, eg the boondocking site in the Sierras that was referenced recently. But there is a vast swath of North America that falls between these two extremes. So, in answer to your questions:

We have had to line up at a fast charger once in two years. It was a four bay Supercharger in a small town, and we weren't confident going the 150 km to the next one without a short charge. We waited 30 minutes. There were multiple restaurants, but we sat in the car and watched a movie. We also had two occasions in two years where there was not an open bay at the charging station at our grocery store. We didn't need to charge, it was just convenient to do so. We didn't need to go anywhere else, we just missed one hour of free charging.

The two times that I diverted to get to an open bay, it was to the other Supercharger across the street. As they add locations, many are in the same towns. It used to be here that we joked about Starbucks literally opening locations kitty-corner to each other, so that people walking didn't have to cross the street to reach one. Tesla now does that, as they expand the number of supercharger bays, selecting new sites on the other side of the street, resulting in no need to cross a busy street.

Yes, Tesla has announced plans to open their Supercharger network to other makes of vehicles. They have already done so in parts of Europe. It is coming here. I don't have the date. I have mixed (mainly selfish) feelings about it, but it will fund ever more stations, so there is that.

While I live in Vancouver, my recent (over the past two months) small town BEV charging has been in Abbotsford, Hope, Merritt, Kamloops (not so small), Salmon Arm, Revelstoke, and Golden (all in BC); Canmore (Alberta); and Monroe and Entiat (both in Washington State. I looked it up, and Entiat has a population of 1250). I also charged in Calgary, in multiple locations, but that is a large city.

When in Calgary (two trips, 5 weeks total) we stay with family. We charge using a 120V 12A connection. It is slow, but we just leave it plugged in all the time. It works fine, at least down to -30C at the house where we parked outdoors; in that case the the 12As are busy heating the battery more than charging it. We put it in the garage there one night to warm it up enough for the 12A charger to kick in.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Following the future here; pretty good discussion...What happens when you need a charge on a trip, the charging stations are filled with customers already, and they are "taking a nap" or "shopping" as some here have suggested as time killing options? I get you can get a call or message on your phone, but what about the guy who was waiting to be next? At a gas station, you just pull in, fill up, and go, with most having accessibility for MH's or TT's; if they don't there is typically one across the street or down the street that does accommodate. Looking for how this one is working or being solved?

Dynamic pricing. If you are charged more for wait times (Tesla calls it idle fees) at a charger, eg connected but not drawing power, it is a function of the other chargers being occupied. If you are potentially in the way of someone waiting, expect $1 per minute. Tesla info below. I don't know about other networks.

There is another demand management tool. We leave our vehicle set to 90% maximum charge. On a long trip, we set it to 100%, especially for the first leg. Pulling into a high demand station, the car advises that our maximum charge level has been changed to 80%, to serve more customers. We can change it back, it isn't locked, but it helps remind you not to dally if there are others there.

Another issue is ICE vehicles blocking or occupying the EV charge bays, usually it seems to make a point, sometimes out of ignorance. Some Superchargers now have bollards that move with your Tesla key fob, to deter ICEing.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Not sure I understand how this works...

The implication of what you wrote is that your Honda generator can produce more miles per gallon than a modern gas-powered car.

That generator holds 3.4 gallons. According to the manufacturer's spec it will run for almost 20 hours at 1/4 load. You're talking about a charging rate of 12 amps at 120v which would be just about half load for this generator.

Even if we give the generator the advantage by doing the math at 1/4-load for the time you say it takes to charge your EV (20 hours) you're consuming 3.4 gallons, more or less. My 2015 Subaru average right at 30 mpg, meaning that it can travel about 100 miles on that same 3.4 gallons.

How is your generator accomplishing this on a fraction of the gas a gas vehicle would use? Seems like it's burning right about the same amount to me.

The thing is, it takes a certain amount of energy to move a mass a set distance. The same energy is required regardless of the source. Doesn't matter if that gas is flowing to the tank via a fuel nozzle or through the electric lines from the generator.

Or is your math showing something different?

I have never recharged using a portable gasoline generator, but there are quite a few variables in your calculation here. The following should help to narrow them down.

The attached chart shows charging rates with different electric sources. I use a 40 amp home circuit, with a 32 amp breaker, at 208 volt, so 6.7 kw charging. The chart lists 30 mile/50 km per hour of charging, which works out for me, when I factor down the 240 V they base the chart on. The Model Y is virtually the same as the Model 3.

You can take the charge rate (miles per hour of charging), the time, the power required, and figure out how long the Honda will have to run, at what load factor, and so on. I don't know what load factor Andy was assuming, or whether he planned to refill the fuel tank of the Honda generator (I know we used to have to do that regularly, with smaller Honda generators)

My read of the example was that at 3 kW, a full charge from a low battery would take 20 hours. Vehicle range is close to 300 miles. So if one only needed to get 100 miles back, that would be closer to 7 hours at full load.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

I have never recharged using a portable gasoline generator, but there are quite a few variables in your calculation here. The following should help to narrow them down.

The attached chart shows charging rates with different electric sources. I use a 40 amp home circuit, with a 32 amp breaker, at 208 volt, so 6.7 kw charging. The chart lists 30 mile/50 km per hour of charging, which works out for me, when I factor down the 240 V they base the chart on. The Model Y is virtually the same as the Model 3.

You can take the charge rate (miles per hour of charging), the time, the power required, and figure out how long the Honda will have to run, at what load factor, and so on. I don't know what load factor Andy was assuming, or whether he planned to refill the fuel tank of the Honda generator (I know we used to have to do that regularly, with smaller Honda generators)

My read of the example was that at 3 kW, a full charge from a low battery would take 20 hours. Vehicle range is close to 300 miles. So if one only needed to get 100 miles back, that would be closer to 7 hours at full load.

Still not doing much better, if at all, running the generator vs. a high-MPG gasoline car. That Honda at full load will consume 3.4 gal in under 7 hours.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

I don't know how long it will take. And it will take longer for multiple BEV chargers to be installed at or on the way to remote boondocking sites. Yes, it is easier in some locations. And pretty much impossible in some, eg the boondocking site in the Sierras that was referenced recently. But there is a vast swath of North America that falls between these two extremes. So, in answer to your questions:

We have had to line up at a fast charger once in two years. It was a four bay Supercharger in a small town, and we weren't confident going the 150 km to the next one without a short charge. We waited 30 minutes. There were multiple restaurants, but we sat in the car and watched a movie. We also had two occasions in two years where there was not an open bay at the charging station at our grocery store. We didn't need to charge, it was just convenient to do so. We didn't need to go anywhere else, we just missed one hour of free charging.

The two times that I diverted to get to an open bay, it was to the other Supercharger across the street. As they add locations, many are in the same towns. It used to be here that we joked about Starbucks literally opening locations kitty-corner to each other, so that people walking didn't have to cross the street to reach one. Tesla now does that, as they expand the number of supercharger bays, selecting new sites on the other side of the street, resulting in no need to cross a busy street.

Yes, Tesla has announced plans to open their Supercharger network to other makes of vehicles. They have already done so in parts of Europe. It is coming here. I don't have the date. I have mixed (mainly selfish) feelings about it, but it will fund ever more stations, so there is that.

While I live in Vancouver, my recent (over the past two months) small town BEV charging has been in Abbotsford, Hope, Merritt, Kamloops (not so small), Salmon Arm, Revelstoke, and Golden (all in BC); Canmore (Alberta); and Monroe and Entiat (both in Washington State. I looked it up, and Entiat has a population of 1250). I also charged in Calgary, in multiple locations, but that is a large city.

When in Calgary (two trips, 5 weeks total) we stay with family. We charge using a 120V 12A connection. It is slow, but we just leave it plugged in all the time. It works fine, at least down to -30C at the house where we parked outdoors; in that case the the 12As are busy heating the battery more than charging it. We put it in the garage there one night to warm it up enough for the 12A charger to kick in.

Aside from the cold weather issues, which can affect all vehicles, none of what you're describing is as convenient as being able to fully fill a gas tank at will in nearly any place I want to travel. Until we're at that point, or nearly so, it's going to be a tough slog. We've got a ways to go before you'll get the buy in from people who have places they need to be and can't take the chance of having to wait for a charge or not find one when they need it.

I'd be able to charge at home, but if not I'd feel like I'm a slave to the car always worrying about snatching a partial charge when I could. Reminds me of why I got rid of a perfectly good smartphone once - got tired of having to constantly worry about keeping the darned thing charged and traded for one that can make it through more than a day.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Still not doing much better, if at all, running the generator vs. a high-MPG gasoline car. That Honda at full load will consume 3.4 gal in under 7 hours.

It shouldn't be doing better, it should be doing worse. The Honda engine won't be as efficient as a modern ICE in a vehicle, and there are multiple conversions going on.

But I don't think the proposal was to create a hybrid with a Honda generator. I think it was about how does one get back to a charge point if one runs a BEV flat in the boondocks.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Aside from the cold weather issues, which can affect all vehicles, none of what you're describing is as convenient as being able to fully fill a gas tank at will in nearly any place I want to travel. Until we're at that point, or nearly so, it's going to be a tough slog. We've got a ways to go before you'll get the buy in from people who have places they need to be and can't take the chance of having to wait for a charge or not find one when they need it.

I'd be able to charge at home, but if not I'd feel like I'm a slave to the car always worrying about snatching a partial charge when I could. Reminds me of why I got rid of a perfectly good smartphone once - got tired of having to constantly worry about keeping the darned thing charged and traded for one that can make it through more than a day.

I think that for many people, in areas not as far along in BEV infrastructure, it isn't as convenient. Absolutely. Today. The examples of other areas, such as the west coast, or Vancouver, can give us some insight into adoption rates. We were in the low single digits for BEVs here a few years ago. Now we are over 10%. In the UK, it is just above that. Globally, it is around 8% electric. In Norway, they surpassed 91% electric in September 2021. And recall their role in fossil fuel resource development.

I spent a career working with products from a heavy equipment manufacturer based in Illinois. A common phrase is "will it play in Peoria?" I get that Peoria isn't Norway. But looking at sales results around the world, over a three or four year span, provides some worthwhile insight into what is coming in North America. Even, dare I say, in Peoria. We get to a tipping point. It is just a question of when. It will obviously be longer for towing heavy trailers, and especially for those boondocking. No argument.

US manufacturers will be making ICE vehicles for another 8 years, maybe longer. We don't have to solve this today. And even when they stop, there will be lots of legacy ICE vehicles for people to purchase used. But the more we can understand about the transition happening, the better we are able to plan for it, and the repercussions of it, IMO.

[jeffb831]

Originally Posted by jcl

US manufacturers will be making ICE vehicles for another 8 years, maybe longer. We don't have to solve this today. And even when they stop, there will be lots of legacy ICE vehicles for people to purchase used. But the more we can understand about the transition happening, the better we are able to plan for it, and the repercussions of it, IMO.

That's the problem I have with the whole transition. It is not market driven but forced by government intervention. There is a deadline for building new ICE vehicles set by the government.

The merits and advantages of new technology should be enough to drive the transition without government intervention forcing old technology to be obsolete.

The common analog most cited is the transition from horse/buggy to cars but there was no law outlawing new horses or buggies forcing everyone who wanted new transportation to get a car.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jeffb831

That's the problem I have with the whole transition. It is not market driven but forced by government intervention. There is a deadline for building new ICE vehicles set by the government.

The merits and advantages of new technology should be enough to drive the transition without government intervention forcing old technology to be obsolete.

The common analog most cited is the transition from horse/buggy to cars but there was no law outlawing new horses or buggies forcing everyone who wanted new transportation to get a car.

Can you please point us to anything about a deadline issued by the government regarding an end to ICE vehicles? Everything I've seen so far has been corporate driven, not government mandated.