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Old 01-03-2021, 09:08 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by AldeanFan View Post
This is great information.
No it’s not. It’s great conversation. Some facts followed up by a conclusion that is an opinion.
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Old 01-03-2021, 09:17 AM   #62
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Andrew T

Since you are so well acquainted with insurance executives have you met one that would be willing to incorporate any mention of the endorsement of exceeding auto manufacturers limits in writing?
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Old 01-03-2021, 09:27 AM   #63
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I believe that the reason the modification is being so openly done above the border is that they don't have lawyers they have solicitors and they don't demand they ask politely.

Bob
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Old 01-03-2021, 10:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
(snip a string of ancedotal fallacies...)

If you’re interstate in this come to one of our seminars at the store sometime. There will be 10 combinations available for test drives. If you want our engineer or I can take you for the E ticket ride.

I also do seminars at Alumapalooza. I only have one combination there. I’m sure it will be the Tesla for the next one.
Would the demonstrations include replication of the SAE J2807 handling tests?
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Old 01-03-2021, 10:06 AM   #65
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Jeep Cooling System Improved in Gladiator

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And yet completely void of valid published data for the Jeep. Your bias is showing.
In my post, I tried to provide an opinion based on engineering information that I had received, rather than purporting to be a 'know-it-all'. I have read the thread and it is full of speculation and option on why a Jeep has a tow recommendation (not a rating) of 3,500 lbs.

If you want the facts, then check out this video from TFL Trucks. Roman interviews Pete Milosavlevski, the engineer in charge of the Gladiator design team. At 3:40 he talks about the SAE guidelines and the changes from the Wrangler to get it to pass the SAE recommendations. Cooling improvements are at the top of his list.

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Old 01-03-2021, 10:30 AM   #66
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Sorry if you misunderstood, Ray. My critique was of AleanFan for accepting what could be a valid and correct opinion without the peer reviewed data he demanded of other claims. I am aware the Jeep has cooling issues on grade in addition to cornering stability limits. I note that Pete also described chassis tuning to improve understeer gradient (reduce oversteer instability). Again I was not doubting your claims.
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Old 01-03-2021, 11:03 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Shiny16 View Post
No it’s not. It’s great conversation. Some facts followed up by a conclusion that is an opinion.
Please read post #65 and watch the YouTube video with the interview with the Jeep Gladiator engineer team leader for the unequivocal facts.
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Old 01-03-2021, 11:10 AM   #68
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Please read post #65 and watch the YouTube video with the interview with the Jeep Gladiator engineer team leader for the unequivocal facts.
Sorry. Must have been your use of “IMHO” that confused me.
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Old 01-03-2021, 12:28 PM   #69
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Wrangler As A TV

I certainly have respect for the people that configure, install and set up towing platforms. I am impressed with the knowledge and expertise of these people. I have always felt that a man / woman should do whatever they have chosen to do in life to a very high standard and turn to other experts in their areas of expertise. I am not an expert, I have been towing for 50 years and have been very fortunate in not having any major problems.
What baffles me is why people don't do their homework and listen to the experts. Why do so many people buy TV's that are at the absolute limit (or less) of their capabilities and then write long dissertations on how to apply various band aids to make less do a little more. It's confusing to me. Why wouldn't you want a little cushion in GVW, braking, cooling and power ?. Why would you want an inherently unstable and poor handling, not to mention underpowered vehicle such as a Wrangler to use for towing?. Please turn to an expert before making a mistake. Happy New Year.
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Old 01-03-2021, 01:01 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by syclone93 View Post
...
What baffles me is why people don't do their homework and listen to the experts. Why do so many people buy TV's that are at the absolute limit (or less) of their capabilities and then write long dissertations on how to apply various band aids to make less do a little more. It's confusing to me. ...
There are many reasons an Airstream owner would not want a pickup truck as their tow vehicle.

Here are just a few:

1. Can't afford a dedicated tow vehicle and their present vehicle is up to the task.
2. Want a tow vehicle that can be used as a daily driver. e.g. parking in their garage; easily manoeuvrable in tight spaces; comfort, etc.
3. Don't have a need for larger load capacity for bikes, canoes, generators, tools etc.
4. The tow vehicle is for use as a fun, off-road vehicle at the destination.
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Old 01-03-2021, 01:21 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by syclone93 View Post
I certainly have respect for the people that configure, install and set up towing platforms. I am impressed with the knowledge and expertise of these people. I have always felt that a man / woman should do whatever they have chosen to do in life to a very high standard and turn to other experts in their areas of expertise. I am not an expert, I have been towing for 50 years and have been very fortunate in not having any major problems.
What baffles me is why people don't do their homework and listen to the experts. Why do so many people buy TV's that are at the absolute limit (or less) of their capabilities and then write long dissertations on how to apply various band aids to make less do a little more. It's confusing to me. Why wouldn't you want a little cushion in GVW, braking, cooling and power ?. Why would you want an inherently unstable and poor handling, not to mention underpowered vehicle such as a Wrangler to use for towing?. Please turn to an expert before making a mistake. Happy New Year.
I think the issue is that with the internet it’s now possible to pick your own “expert”. It’s always possible to find one the justifies your particular situation.
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Old 01-03-2021, 01:45 PM   #72
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I can tell you my first priority is to drive something that Keeps me out of the accident in the first place. That is best liability mitigation. So short stopping distance and quick handling.

I can tell you the Vice President of a large insurance company looked into this extensively with his legal team who phoned me asked many questions. He then proceeded to tow his 28’ Airstream all over the continent with a sedan for 10 years.

The largest insurance broker in Ontario towed his 34’s with a variety of sedans and then German SUV’s.

Several auto company engineers are clients I can’t think of any who’s vehicle has a tow rating higher than their trailer weight.

A GM plant manager towed his 34 with Buick Enclaves.

After my seminar at Alumapooluza a gentleman came up to me and said how much he enjoyed my seminar and that he was embarrassed to say he was towing a 25’ with an F250. I replied “don’t be embarrassed there are many millions of add dollars being spent to make you that’s what you need to do”. He replied I can’t really use that as an excuse you see I am a Ford Engineer. I asked what part of the vehicle he worked on and he replied “I design unibody structures” I replied “you must be a pretty smart guy as these new unit body’s are amazing”. I asked him is there any part of my seminar you think I’m out of line with? Numbers don’t make sense testing isn’t valid etc? He replied “It all looked good to me I’ve just never thought all the factors together before that way, makes perfect sense. What I found humorous was how well you understand the politics of it all. I haven’t traded my 250 because the new one is even more ridiculously tall than my current one and that height was added just to make it sell better.

If you’re interstate in this come to one of our seminars at the store sometime. There will be 10 combinations available for test drives. If you want our engineer or I can take you for the E ticket ride.

I also do seminars at Alumapalooza. I only have one combination there. I’m sure it will be the Tesla for the next one.


This conversation reminds me of when I started sailboat racing, I was racing a semi custom 36 Frers and called for room at the mark (I did have right of way) to a guy in a 45 ft custom boat. He yells back “hit me” .. as it turns out we made it around safely.

But the back story is he owned the largest boat insurer around, he just didn’t care...

So you can choose who to believe. I know especially after hitting the CAT scales today I’m glad I tow with 3300 lbs payload... truck loaded and connected 10,260 with weight distribution. Still have about 1300 lbs of capacity plenty to add a topper/bed-slide and drawers cause I found out need more storage.
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Old 01-03-2021, 02:00 PM   #73
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Opinion only ... we had a wrangler JK 2-d Rubicon whose best use was maneuvering our AS around on our property and then hitching up to our pickup for travel. We tried towing about 100 miles once and it was scary ... Rockhard 1/4" rear bumper with beefed up receiver, EQ hitch, Bambi 20 FC. To me, it was unsafe and I would not risk my family or the safety of other folks on the road - can it be done, yes; but, much better with a longer wheelbase TV that did not have the tail wagging the dog. We love the attributes of the wrangler for off road use ... just not for towing; but, try it and see for yourself B4 you buy!
YMMV
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Old 01-03-2021, 02:15 PM   #74
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Opinion only ... we had a wrangler JK 2-d Rubicon whose best use was maneuvering our AS around on our property and then hitching up to our pickup for travel. We tried towing about 100 miles once and it was scary ... Rockhard 1/4" rear bumper with beefed up receiver, EQ hitch, Bambi 20 FC. To me, it was unsafe and I would not risk my family or the safety of other folks on the road - can it be done, yes; but, much better with a longer wheelbase TV that did not have the tail wagging the dog. We love the attributes of the wrangler for off road use ... just not for towing; but, try it and see for yourself B4 you buy!
YMMV
I don’t think the OP was asking about towing with a 2 dr Jeep as he quotes a 3500 lb tow “rating”. I agree that I wouldn’t tow a large trailer a long distance with your 2dr Jeep. The JLU is a totally different platform.
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Old 01-03-2021, 03:18 PM   #75
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I don’t think the OP was asking about towing with a 2 dr Jeep as he quotes a 3500 lb tow “rating”. I agree that I wouldn’t tow a large trailer a long distance with your 2dr Jeep. The JLU is a totally different platform.
I would not tow with a jeep 2d or a 4d ... op did not specify ...only a wrangler.
We tried to tow with an unlimited as well --- also quite scary with the tail wagging the dog !
JL on road characteristics do not differ significantly from the JK series.
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Old 01-06-2021, 10:03 AM   #76
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Jeeps.

Do not buy a Jeep. Watch the Scotty Kilmer videos on You Tube.
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Old 01-06-2021, 10:07 AM   #77
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In USA SAE J2807 standaridized tow vehicle rating testing for all manufacturers establishing specific test for vehicles to determine not only what they can pull and stop on the road but also start and stop from on incline, brake holding capability on incline, handling on a sway inducing slalom course, sway recovery with/without driver input, etc. Prior to 2008 manufacturers just did their own thing often in the suv/pickup truck world just "out rating" the competition and claiming "best in class" when they defined the "class" to not include the competition. It was a marketing driven approach.... sorta like Andy's apparent loosey goosey test data free "in my opinion its ok, safety testing be damned" approach to giving potential life altering advice to the public...to make a sale. Following the money usually leads to a motivation.
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Old 01-06-2021, 10:18 AM   #78
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Jeeps are great at a lot of things. I love Jeeps! Have owned three of them.
I would not tow an AS with one...

Wheelbase is too short, payload is not there.
I had the tail wag the dog when towing a (small) TT with my Jeep once.
Never tried that again. It is an “enlightening“ experience.

Be safe,
Bill
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Old 01-06-2021, 10:22 AM   #79
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Reference what's legal in Canada, I have seen the Canadian Police checking 5th wheels trailer weights against the TV ratings. Never saw them checking a tow able, but they seemed hard on fivers.
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Old 01-06-2021, 10:27 AM   #80
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If there is ANY opinion to listen to, it is Andy’s.
And even Andy said that there are better choices for a tow vehicle. If I remember correctly he also said that it works best for off-road towing.
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