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Old 11-17-2014, 03:08 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franswa View Post
I'm a porsche gold meister technician, I'd be happy to answer a few of your questions. Sad to say early the early cayenne is an area of expertise for me.
Thanx! Sent you a PM
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:13 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
I had looked at the X5, but felt the Cayenne handles better with less QC issues than the early X5 had. I agree that the straight 6 BMW is an excellent engine, but again want the reserve. X5 V8s are also harder to find than the 6s - especially with the tow option on any of them 6 or 8. I like the X5 & am in both Porsche & BMW owner clubs, so it's not a Porschephile thing on my part.

I've heard that even the early OE hitch for the X5 should have extra bracing added forward to the rear axle area for the WD use, according to CanAm.
I don't want to talk you into an X5, just presenting it as an alternative. I think of the Cayenne as being a Touareg with more expensive replacement parts and slightly different styling. I do like the look.

As to the E53 BMW, 2/3 sold were six cylinders so they are definitely more common. There is no factory tow option; all were built to the same spec with the same coolers, etc. The only item you need is the OE spec receiver hitch, which comes with a plug in wiring harness, and which was only ever offered by the dealer. On the E53 I don't think it requires any bracing for WD use. Aftermarket hitches did not include the unibody strengthening that the OE hitch kit did, so many required bracing even for non-wd use. On later models (E70, etc) bracing may be required even with the OE hitch kit for heavier tongue weights with wd.

Good luck in your search

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Old 11-17-2014, 03:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
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I suppose if you mean that since the Porsche is so much better than a Toureg or Q7, that anything there would be that much better in the Cayenne, then sure they're closes!
LOL, I'd think you could "get-er-done"

You've got one of my other dream cars in your sig there. Westfalia Camper. Although the Syncro is the variant I've been hunting.
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:18 PM   #24
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First some background as we have owned two cars that you currently have now. We had an 85 BMW 325e. Great torque, but only 121 hp and I think it red lined at about 4,500 rpm. We broke the timing belt twice and had a fire in the engine compartment- not our favorite BMW. Now my current BMW, 2002 BMW 330ci is the best car I have ever owned- 231k with original clutch, radiator and water pump- only changed the brake pads once so far. We had an 85 VW Vanagon- real hard to add water to and vent properly. I also had a 67 and 72 Porsche 911- did not like the Bosch mechanical fuel injection in the 72.

Based on your fleet, I see a BMW X5, a Benz SUV/SW or a Porsche Cayanne in your future. I would buy which ever one you can find that you like, but by all means pass it through Andy T. for his blessing. Because my TV is a 2008 Tundra 5.7L which I really love, I would also consider a 2007 or later Sequiah 5.7L because of the great motor and 6 speed tranny.

Good luck, Dan
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by TouringDan View Post
First some background as we have owned two cars that you currently have now. We had an 85 BMW 325e. Great torque, but only 121 hp and I think it red lined at about 4,500 rpm. We broke the timing belt twice and had a fire in the engine compartment- not our favorite BMW. Now my current BMW, 2002 BMW 330ci is the best car I have ever owned- 231k with original clutch, radiator and water pump- only changed the brake pads once so far. We had an 85 VW Vanagon- real hard to add water to and vent properly. I also had a 67 and 72 Porsche 911- did not like the Bosch mechanical fuel injection in the 72.

Based on your fleet, I see a BMW X5, a Benz SUV/SW or a Porsche Cayanne in your future. I would buy which ever one you can find that you like, but by all means pass it through Andy T. for his blessing. Because my TV is a 2008 Tundra 5.7L which I really love, I would also consider a 2007 or later Sequiah 5.7L because of the great motor and 6 speed tranny.

Good luck, Dan
Dan,

We're the original owners of the 325e & Westy - almost 200k mi on the 325e with original engine & radiator, water pump only lasted 150k, 5-spd trans rebuilt around 140k & the dang alternator finally died at 194k - so quite the opposite experience you had & 1/4 the cost of the Westy to maintain over it's 215k miles - blown motor (rod thru case at about 100k) & top end rebuild at 160k, auto trans rebuild at 180k & a bunch more stuff over the years.

Most folks have many vehicles - I've only ever owned 5 since 1969 & still own #3 (914), #4 (325e) & #5 (Westy) - although you could make a case that I now own a 74 914 parts body for resto parts, & my wife had a 73 Honda Civic when we were first married & more recently we inherited an 88 Honda Civic Hatchback which my son & I restored/refurbed for his & his sisters use (both in my wife's or the latter now with our son's name on title - so I can still not claim them ).

After the 928 flight of fancy - I did look at all German + Japanese, Korean & US options for the TV, but seemed to have culled them out over researching options.

Although I'd bet that Andy T. would say the 928 would be a capable TV within it's weight class, if properly set-up by his shop & not thrashed mechanically. I know a guy in AL who tows his Whaler boat with his 83 928 (only a 4.5L 265 HP), & another guy in MN/WI area tows his racing 911 & heavy race/equipt/spares trailer with his 928 - among others using a Reese type receiver customized to the 928. I only know one 84 928 guy in Tulsa who has a factory hitch, but only tows light MotoCross Bikes in a small trailer <1500# with it.

PS - The Sequoyah (correct Cherokee phonetic spelling BTW) is too big for either our skinny driveway or for my wife to drive, which is why I thought about the smaller V8 4Runner or Land Cruiser - which are still on the table if the 4.6L V8 would be ample, or if a 5.7L & 6 Spd. Auto were found. I actually liked the earlier <`06 Tundra/Sequoyah/LR/4Runner & the even earlier 4Runners/LRs without the fat C-Pillars.

My wife & I would have to drive any "finalists" to decide if the size, ride & handling works - as well as the towing capability.
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:53 PM   #26
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Re: Cayenne as TV. If this is not a currently owned vehicle, IMO it is not a great TV. The torque curve is such that it will downshift at 60 mph on the Interstate, uses gas at 10-12 mpg, and has limited range as a result of low fuel mileage. One could drive in fifth gear, fuel mileage may be even worse. And, premium fuel is required if I am not mistaken.

I sold my Cayenne Turbo (450 hp, 460 ft lb) and bought a Dodge Cummins.
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:17 PM   #27
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Input on Porsche Cayenne as TV (& 928's??)

[QUOTE=Tom_T;1541981]Wow! Thanx for all of the excellent info & links Slowmover - I've bookmarked & saved them all to read up on them.

As for our TT set-up & your reccos - a few questions & clarifications:

1.) We like you have the Hensley, so I'm not sure why one would then ad a TT brake operated anti-sway system on top of the excellent Hensley (or PP) unit which obviates the sway through the heads' cams/etc. movement?

... wouldn't they end up fighting each other in a sense - e.g.: braking opposite side while the Hensley head tries to do its "thing" - mechanism moves then returns causing braking to put forces at the wheel/tire opposite to what the Hensley is counteracting itself?


2.) We already have the Tekonsha RF (essentially a wireless Prodigy P3) mounted on the TT A-frame - so the controller unit usually mounted under-dash is instead mounted on the TT A-frame & stays there, while you hitch/connect 7-way & go thru a set-up & "pairing" procedure with the handheld unit plugged into the TV's 12v, & then adjust the boost for each TV on the street under braking conditions (only done once if using the same TV).

...So I'm confused as to why I'd need another brake controller which you recommend installed in the TV??

...a related question is then will the ABS box be compatible with our Tekonsha controller?

....& will it also work on our current electric drum brake set-up?


3.) I thought that the main purpose of 10-15% HW was to keep a standard coupler fixed on the ball, which is not as much of an issue with a Hensley/PP head unit attached to the TT's coupler, then a solid bar stinger - rather than coupler on ball from Hensley head to TV receiver??

....of course getting the HW for other reasons is a good idea, so the scale is now in my plans!


4.) Are there any reasonably priced versions of those digital tire pad type scales around - like I've seen used at Good Sam or Safety Institute events where they weigh your TT/TV on-site?

...as of now I have a moving target each time with a different rented TV & my wife moving stuff around inside unknown to me, so something at hand while hitching up seems to be ideal!


5.) I agree on the suspension differences TV to TT, & yes our T20 still has the 6-leaf spring & square bar/tube dropped single axle unit with no shocks , but the PO had the shop at Camping World in ABQ update the electric drum brakes + axle & bearings in 2007, & I've had them repacked/resealed & serviced in 2012 & this past May (only about 3000 miles towed in that time).

Shocks are mostly for dampening & ride quality - which you can't ride in the TT anyway - & I see no excessive bounce from the TT when towing.

The washboarding to which I was referring in the OP was mostly with the long wheelbase Dodge 2500 3/4T Crew Cab+Long Bed (8') giving a really crappy ride - even when unhitched - relative to the Pathfinder or even to the extended cab Ford F150 short bed (medium or short wheelbase?) used for the 1st tow-job trip 800+ miles ABQ to SoCal (although still a harsher ride than the Pathfinders). In all cases these are the "new age" 4x4 jacked up too high & too hard sprung versions that they're marketing depts. say is the only thing "boyz with big cahones" will buy!

... However, apparently the old stock style TT wheel bearings are now becoming NLA, so we may be forced to go to the newer torsion suspension with electric disc brakes & a different axle at some point, as you suggest.

6.) We're also running the Maxxix R8008 radial ST225/75R15 8PR Load D 2540# rated at 65# air pressure trailer tires (that's 5000# + for both) new in July `12 (date coded May`12), as recco'ed by the trailer resto expert who did the PPI for the T20, & they're still in the
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:28 PM   #28
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Great. My reply was lost. Yes you want correct TW percentage as well as best weight distribution afterwards. Same for electronic sway control. Mech is nice but electronic is lightning fast.

St tires are Problem. One day all is good but next week you've a $7000 repair bill. Need TpMS as well


Etc. More when I'm back on laptop


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Old 11-17-2014, 10:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msmoto View Post
Re: Cayenne as TV. If this is not a currently owned vehicle, IMO it is not a great TV. The torque curve is such that it will downshift at 60 mph on the Interstate, uses gas at 10-12 mpg, and has limited range as a result of low fuel mileage. One could drive in fifth gear, fuel mileage may be even worse. And, premium fuel is required if I am not mistaken.

I sold my Cayenne Turbo (450 hp, 460 ft lb) and bought a Dodge Cummins.
Ms Tommie,

I assume that was towing with your Cayenne Turbo S, which gets 1-2 mph lower unhitched than the non-turbo S V8 - so that tracks with our friends getting 12-14 in the non-turbo S & towing non-AS/streamlined trailers, but still lower than I'd have expected.

Which trailer were you towing then & what weight?
.... I see 3 25, 27 & 30' AS's in your info box at left.

I only got 7-10 mpg on the last 2014 Dodge 2500 6.3L V8 gas we rented, but that was more city - the vintage rally only being 20 mins away with a short fwy hop. I've not rented a diesel truck yet, so no idea there, but the prior `14 5.7L 2500 was 10-13 on 450 mi RT SoCal to the Pismo Rally in May.

So the Cayenne S sounds maybe at a slightly better mpg than those gas trucks. However, we still have the driveway space & clearance issue - so we need a smaller than big truck TV.

I'll have to ask more about the downshifting issue you mentioned.

Thanx for the input!
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:28 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Great. My reply was lost. Yes you want correct TW percentage as well as best weight distribution afterwards. Same for electronic sway control. Mech is nice but electronic is lightning fast.

St tires are Problem. One day all is good but next week you've a $7000 repair bill. Need TpMS as well


Etc. More when I'm back on laptop


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Yeah, even my laptop has lost whole posts or emails when I thought they went!

TpMS ?? Is that: Tire Pressure Monitoring System for the trailer tires?

My understanding was that ST tires have stiffer sidewalls & lower rolling resistance for better pulling. I'd also heard horror stories about the run of the mill ST tires sold at CW etc., but that the Maxxis were pretty impregnable if not overstressed, well maintained & not over 5 years or so old from date of mfgr.

Which is why I paid 1.5x - 2x the other ST tires' price for them - to avoid that $7000 damage cost!

I await your other feedback when you get online again.

Also - how much of this list of "costly in aggregate" upgrades needed for pretty much 3-6 local & 400-500 mi trips a year.

I would've thought that a great WD/AS hitch like Hensley, a great brake controller like Tekonsha's top one (in RF form), & top trailer tires would have us covered for safe travel!

Oh & I do plan to do the CAT Scale thing soon, now that I have the how to info you posted here!
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:37 AM   #31
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what about the Cayenne Diesel ? 240HP/405lbs 1000lbs less curb weight than the Q7/Toureg if I recall
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:54 AM   #32
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Alan - cool blog you've got there & saw your post about camping in Asheville NC! Our daughter & son-in-law actually moved to the Asheville area in 2011 & bought a house in Candler last year, plus my wife has 2 brothers in Kennesaw GA, so we get back to your neck at least once a year now. Maybe in the Avion at some point post-retirement & then we could do Falluminum or some vintage rallies back in the Smokies.

That is cool...hope to see you at one of our Fall or Spring events. They are a whole lot of fun. You obviously know what you are getting into. Best of luck with whatever direction you go.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:28 PM   #33
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what about the Cayenne Diesel ? 240HP/405lbs 1000lbs less curb weight than the Q7/Toureg if I recall
Tim,

Our friends have a `13 diesel & love it over the 2 Cayenne S's they've had before, but it's one of their primary daily drivers + towing. But.....

... the Cayenne Diesel came out in 2013 & used are now selling used at $50-60K+.

Whereas, the`03-06 Cayenne S sells in the $10-20K+/- range, &
`08-`10 Cayenne S sells in the $20-30K+ range

One can buy a heck of a lot of Premium gas in the difference of 14-15/16-18/18-22 mpg gas, to 18-24/24-29/29-34 mpg for the diesel (city/mixed/hwy) for a $20-50K+ difference in purchase price alone - aside from higher maintenance costs with the diesel.

And diesel around here in Sunny SoCal is running $0.10-0.20+/- MORE than Premium.

So the math doesn't make sense to us for a 3rd car/TV.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:37 PM   #34
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That is cool...hope to see you at one of our Fall or Spring events. They are a whole lot of fun. You obviously know what you are getting into. Best of luck with whatever direction you go.
Alan, I just noticed from your sig that you ended up with a Chevy Trailblazer, after reading your posts looking at Touregs & others elsewhere on here!

How has your Trailblazer worked out for you?
... Is it the V8 or V6?
... What year?
... or is it not yet enough time with it?

I looked at the Trailblazer/GMC-twin, Ford Explorer & Dodge Durango/Chrysler-twin with V8's - but was concerned about Consumer Reports, JD Powers & other bad reports on quality & reliability of all Big 3 mid-sized SUVs.

I also thought that they're far more likely to be thrashed by prior owners in 5-10 year old cars, than say a Porsche Cay-S, BMW X5, MBZ M, Audi Q7, VW Treg, etc. premium SUV owner would be - the latter group tending to take better care of them - at least the 1st & 2nd owners.

Tom
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:40 PM   #35
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Point Taken. I saw Porsche, and sort of assumed money was no object. Up here in the frozen taxed north diesel is ~same as mid-grade in price.

Forgot also that the deprecation on the early cayennes has been high, which pays for a lot if you can maintain and reliability is decent.

Best Tow Vehicle value is the Grand Caravan Minivan, but it comes with somewhat less cachet than the 928 or porsches.
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:05 PM   #36
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We have our final vintage camp-out outing for the year this weekend, with a Ford F250 rental lined up, so I'll take some pix of why physically the full size truck/SUV route will NOT work for us - aside from the fact that my wife won't drive one, which sorta defeats the purpose of it the other 250+/- days of the year as our "3rd car."

In the last 2-3 years I've come to know that there are 2 camps out there vehemently holding their own position - big truck folks & smaller TV folks - both sides absolutely convinced they're side is right - kinda like red & blue politics! ...not that I hadn't known it before we got our Avion.

Those above noted pix to come should very clearly show that a full sized truck/suv is just a NO GO for us, and so we're looking in the mid-sized SUV/CUV/SW arena.

In the meantime just for the Halibut, here are some Porsche 928 towing pix I re-found ....

... FYI - 1st 3 are in EU/UK by the plates, 928x2 & boat are USA; ...

... 3rd from last is the factory 928 hitch & 4th & 5th from last are guys in the USA using it for smaller trailers, while 2nd from last is the guy with a Curt 2" receiver by the Lic plate custom modified to fit the 928 & tows his +/- 25' whaler boat/trailer 2-axle with it in AL or down there somewhere; ....

... & the last one is a current 2010> Panamera S V8, which has an electrically operated version of the Euro style hitch like in the 928 below & it's rated on that one for +/- 4800# by TUV & the EU/UK markets.

Heck - if Andy T can tow with Chrysler 300's & Ford Taurus SHO V8's - why not 928 & Panameras!!??
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:16 PM   #37
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Point Taken. I saw Porsche, and sort of assumed money was no object. Up here in the frozen taxed north diesel is ~same as mid-grade in price.

Forgot also that the deprecation on the early cayennes has been high, which pays for a lot if you can maintain and reliability is decent.

Best Tow Vehicle value is the Grand Caravan Minivan, but it comes with somewhat less cachet than the 928 or porsches.
Tim,

The Grand Caravan V6 - or even its VW Routan twin - would be heavily taxed on the Southwest grades in the hot desert out here. I know Andy T makes them work, but I'd prefer the cushion of V8 power for the loss of 1-3 mpg when towing & not that I'm seeing in the older 5-10 year old cars/suvs, & the city/mixed/hwy mpg of a Cayenne S & similar is about the same as our `88 VW Westfalia, & we have the `85 BMW 325e for 18-22/22-28/30-35+ mpg efficiency.

Any car loses 20-25% first driven off the lot, then proceeds from there & Porsche is no different for any model - Cayenne maybe more so due to it's teething problems when first introduced.

BTW - until this past Sept our son was posted at Ft Drum/Watertown NY just across the river from you (he's in Colo now), & I grew up as a kid until 1963 age 10 in Pittsburgh PA & still have family in the frozen northern tier whom we visit - so I get the frozen bit all too well!

70's here now .... but we desperately need rain!

Oh & not all Porsche owners are rich shmucks! That's why Porsche keeps cancelling the sub-Boxter 718 runabout - so they can keep selling the used Porsches & keep the new cars flowing!! If they only supported classic P-cars with parts that theory would stand!
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:21 PM   #38
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How to contact Franswa??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franswa View Post
I'm a porsche gold meister technician, I'd be happy to answer a few of your questions. Sad to say early the early cayenne is an area of expertise for me.
So Franswa, how to get a hold of you for those questions??

I'd PM'ed to you with my contact info earlier, but no reply.

I appreciate the offer.

PS - I just sent you an email on here with my cell # & email addy to chat about this, in case you don't see your PMs right away.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:00 PM   #39
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What is your concern specific to towing? The Cayenne chassis would be great as a tow vehicle, health, maintenance and fuel economy are separate topics.

If you feel you need a V8, that's your prerogative. All I know is that the Cayenne V8 has horrible fuel economy, much worse 'real world' compared to EPA ratings and especially the earlier ones with 6 speed transmissions. This is from owners experience in my family. I haven't looked at gear ratios on where you would be at towing speed, but you might want to look at that.

FWIW, I tow a a '15 28' comfortably with the Cayenne's smaller cousin, a Q5 3.0T Petrol which has been setup by Andy at CanAM. The performance of the Q5 with the supercharger is similar to the newer 4.8L in a Cayenne when you take weight etc. into consideration.....I'm sure I get much better fuel economy towing and normal driving. I've found the Q5 is underrated from the factory and the 8 speed ZF is a wonder. You would be wise to consider a slightly newer Cayenne with the 8 speed Aisin.

...and yes, we do have hills in Canada and the temperature does get into the mid 30's (C) in the summer towing months
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:11 PM   #40
Tom T
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cory_can View Post
What is your concern specific to towing? The Cayenne chassis would be great as a tow vehicle, health, maintenance and fuel economy are separate topics.

If you feel you need a V8, that's your prerogative. All I know is that the Cayenne V8 has horrible fuel economy, much worse 'real world' compared to EPA ratings and especially the earlier ones with 6 speed transmissions. This is from owners experience in my family. I haven't looked at gear ratios on where you would be at towing speed, but you might want to look at that.

FWIW, I tow a a '15 28' comfortably with the Cayenne's smaller cousin, a Q5 3.0T Petrol which has been setup by Andy at CanAM. The performance of the Q5 with the supercharger is similar to the newer 4.8L in a Cayenne when you take weight etc. into consideration.....I'm sure I get much better fuel economy towing and normal driving. I've found the Q5 is underrated from the factory and the 8 speed ZF is a wonder. You would be wise to consider a slightly newer Cayenne with the 8 speed Aisin.

...and yes, we do have hills in Canada and the temperature does get into the mid 30's (C) in the summer towing months
Thanx Cory - that's actually good input for me.

I really like the new Q5 & it's newer cousin - the Macan, but am trying to stay away from added complexity of a turbo petrol or diesel if possible, and a new anything isn't really in the cards for us at this time. Excellent styling on the Macan & about 4400# TW capacity.

From the SoCal Cayenne S owners I know - both 4.5L & 4.8L non-turbo - their experience with both tire wear & fuel economy is directly linked to right foot action!

When did the 8 spd come out? 2011 or 2015??

Cheers!
Tom
///////
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