Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-20-2020, 09:07 PM   #61
Rivet Master
 
2018 25' International
Slidell , Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,235
Why not take the person posting at his word?

1) I did not see any inference of a reckless speed, though I did see a reference to a person who committed an act that was reckless with the only mentioned cause being a vehicle that was towing beyond its capacity.

2) One does not need to address speculative red herring arguments that never figured into the case.

3) One does not have to consider absence of arguments. The person posting directly provided the rationale for the conclusion. To raise additional irrelevant points as a diversion could be interpreted as an insult the intelligence of the person posting and the readers.

4) The original poster clearly provided the courts conclusion about why the combination did not stop in time. There is no reason to second guess it.
__________________
Brian
BayouBiker is online now  
Old 09-21-2020, 12:24 AM   #62
3 Rivet Member
 
Collyn's Avatar
 
Church Point , NSW
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3bcamper View Post
I have also read the towing discussions, with a mixture of entertainment and dismay. Unlike most other discussions, this thread doesnít actually help the reader seeking guidance on towing.
There appears to an ongoing misunderstanding on RV fora generally re a vehicle maker's definition of towing capacity. It is essentially what it can tow under rated conditions on 'the end of a rope'. More specifically its ability stop and re-start on a defined gradient, etc. But not necessarily towed via an overhung hitch.

Travel trailer owners may not realise that towing trailers such as theirs is a tiny percentage of the towing market. Most by far is tradespeople (you may have a different term for this) - and the military. Much is short twin axle trailers of a typical two tonne max.

It simply does not make sense to tow a trailer that, when laden, weighs much more than whatever tows it. The main limitations (dynamically) however are trailer length, tow ball mass and towing speed. These are inter-related - but by and large it is not clever to tow above about 60 mph.

Collyn
rvbooks.com
__________________
The problem is not so much what people do not know, it's what they think they know that simply is not true.
Collyn is offline  
Old 09-21-2020, 04:39 AM   #63
Rivet Master
 
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Westerly , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 579
Hey, if you love the tow vehicle debates you should try having a root canal, it would be right up your alley!
smithcreek is offline  
Old 09-21-2020, 06:05 AM   #64
4 Rivet Member
 
brokeboater's Avatar
 
2003 25' Safari
High Springs , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Collyn View Post
It simply does not make sense to tow a trailer that, when laden, weighs much more than whatever tows it.
Your position is you need a 10,000# truck to tow a 10,000# trailer? Going by that my one ton Dodge diesel is just barely adequate to tow my 25' Airstream Safari, if I pack light and keep in mind a 60 mph maximum speed. Call me a reckless daredevil but I tend to push the limits bit above that.
__________________
ďWhile you live, shine / Have no grief at all / Life exists only for a short while / And time demands its toll.Ē
brokeboater is offline  
Old 09-21-2020, 07:20 AM   #65
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Why not take the person posting at his word?

1) I did not see any inference of a reckless speed, though I did see a reference to a person who committed an act that was reckless with the only mentioned cause being a vehicle that was towing beyond its capacity.

2) One does not need to address speculative red herring arguments that never figured into the case.

3) One does not have to consider absence of arguments. The person posting directly provided the rationale for the conclusion. To raise additional irrelevant points as a diversion could be interpreted as an insult the intelligence of the person posting and the readers.

4) The original poster clearly provided the courts conclusion about why the combination did not stop in time. There is no reason to second guess it.
Because it is an incomplete anecdote, with an illogical conclusion.

Look up crash investigations. It appears the driver was unable to stop his combination in time. I gave three likely reasons. But you choose to assume one that doesnít follow from the info given. We donít even know what context the word capacity was used in. You seem to assume tow rating. What if it was significantly over rear axle load, with a very light front axle? That doesnít have to be a capacity issue, it can be a setup issue.
jcl is offline  
Old 09-21-2020, 07:25 AM   #66
4 Rivet Member
 
tkowalyk's Avatar
 
2013 27' FB Classic
Clermont , Florida
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 409
Images: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Why not take the person posting at his word?

1) I did not see any inference of a reckless speed, though I did see a reference to a person who committed an act that was reckless with the only mentioned cause being a vehicle that was towing beyond its capacity.

2) One does not need to address speculative red herring arguments that never figured into the case.

3) One does not have to consider absence of arguments. The person posting directly provided the rationale for the conclusion. To raise additional irrelevant points as a diversion could be interpreted as an insult the intelligence of the person posting and the readers.

4) The original poster clearly provided the courts conclusion about why the combination did not stop in time. There is no reason to second guess it.

Here are the facts.

The car that turned in front of my fiend was found to be the primary contributing factor to the accident, and the tow vehicle - a new Toyota 4 runner would have probably not been able to stop even if it didnít have a 7,500 lb trailer in tow.

The court concluded that the owner of the truck / trailer was towing a trailer in excess of itís rated capacity, and as a result, the attorney made the case solely on the capacity issue, not the material issues that the car that was t-boned was in error and turned into oncoming traffic.

Solely because of the capacity issue - My friend was found to be ďrecklessĒ and the court concluded that the truck / tow vehicle was unsafe to operate.

Again - all of the discussions of it is possible to tow with vehicle X, is not the same as the legal ramifications if one would have an accident.

Of course - safety is another concern altogether. Putting yourself and others on the road at risk is a personal decision and you generally canít change peopleís minds.
tkowalyk is offline  
Old 09-21-2020, 07:45 AM   #67
2020 Globetrotter 25 FBT
 
GettinAway's Avatar

 
2020 25' Globetrotter
Wildwood , Missouri
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,670
Interesting. So, if the guy pulling the trailer was in a recommended F-650, the other driver would have been at fault? Was this a Florida court decision? It seems amazing that blame could totally be shifted from the person who was actually at fault, to someone that wasnít. Got to love the lawyers. Obviously just looking for nothing but justice here?
__________________
2020 25GT FBT
2012 Toyota Tundra Dbl Cab, 5.7 4x4
GettinAway is online now  
Old 09-21-2020, 08:02 AM   #68
Rivet Master
 
2018 25' International
Slidell , Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,235
I wonder what people who apply a court of law reasonableness test would find negligent?

1)Those who tow under the manufacturers US weight and load guidelines (towing, Combined weight and axle weight) and travel at or near US legal limits of 65-70 mph

2) Those who tow well over the manufacturers US weight and load guidelines but keep their speed closer to 60 mph.
__________________
Brian
BayouBiker is online now  
Old 09-21-2020, 08:11 AM   #69
Rivet Master
 
2018 25' International
Slidell , Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,235
Collyn's comparable weight guideline is actually very reasonable. It would have small and midsize SUVs pulling up to 23' trailers. Large SUVs and 1/2 tons pulling 25-26 ' trailers, 3/4 tons pulling up to 33' trailers and one tons pulling the monsters. This is spot on in terms of ideal cross over points.
__________________
Brian
BayouBiker is online now  
Old 09-21-2020, 08:25 AM   #70
Rivet Master
 
Bruce B's Avatar
 
2012 16' International
Jamestown , Rhode Island
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,601
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Collyn's comparable weight guideline is actually very reasonable. It would have small and midsize SUVs pulling up to 23' trailers. Large SUVs and 1/2 tons pulling 25-26 ' trailers, 3/4 tons pulling up to 33' trailers and one tons pulling the monsters. This is spot on in terms of ideal cross over points.
The use of the word ďidealĒ begs the question, what is the down side of using a 3/4 ton truck for a smaller trailer, beyond the extra costs of the truck...?
__________________
Patiently waiting for our Globetrotter 25 to be built and shopping for the next tow vehicle breaking in our new GMC 2500 Sierra Denali Duramax.
Bruce B is offline  
Old 09-21-2020, 09:23 AM   #71
Rivet Master
 
2018 25' International
Slidell , Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,235
Good point, maybe ideal is not the best choice of words, IDK. Anyway, you mentioned cost, the others are the dimensions, harder to park, larger turn radius, higher roll moments, heavier so poorer handling when not towing, stiffer suspension so less comfortable when not towing. However there are also some advantages too, so its hard to say if ideal was the right word.
__________________
Brian
BayouBiker is online now  
Old 09-21-2020, 08:16 PM   #72
3 Rivet Member
 
Collyn's Avatar
 
Church Point , NSW
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokeboater View Post
Your position is you need a 10,000# truck to tow a 10,000# trailer? Going by that my one ton Dodge diesel is just barely adequate to tow my 25' Airstream Safari, if I pack light and keep in mind a 60 mph maximum speed. Call me a reckless daredevil but I tend to push the limits bit above that.
I would certainly suggest your one ton Dodge diesel 'is just barely adequate to tow my 25' Airstream Safari, if you pack light and keep below 60 mph'.

The problem with doing so is not so much how it behaves in normal use, but how it will behave in 'emergency' situations. These may be the need to swerve to avoid a head-on collision, or recover from a strong sudden side-wind gust.

'Pushing the limits' is possibly fine if the results affect only you but in a towing context is likely to affect (even kill) others.

I leave it to others to suggest a better term (my Australian one would overly offend!) - but I feel that 'reckless daredevil' is not adequate.

With such a wide choice of appropriate and affordable US-made tow vehicles I am surprised that many seem to choose one that's borderline adequate.

We have a similar situation here, where people attempt to 3500 kg (about 7700 lb) twin axle caravans (UK/OZ for travel trailers) by a dual cab vehicle weighing about 6000 lbs. Our tow speed limit is 110 kmh (about 69 mph). Rollovers are thus common.
Collyn
__________________
The problem is not so much what people do not know, it's what they think they know that simply is not true.
Collyn is offline  
Old 09-21-2020, 08:21 PM   #73
Rivet Master
 
Belegedhel's Avatar
 
1973 21' Globetrotter
Houston , Texas
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,791
Dennis C (OP)--now look what you've done--this "thread about towing threads" has not only become a towing thread, but has landed where they all do.

You are now distracting people from the "Argue thread."
Belegedhel is offline  
Old 09-22-2020, 09:38 AM   #74
2 Rivet Member
 
Spaggs's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
GAINESVILLE , GA
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
[emphasis added]

Hopefully your excellent observations will not be lost in the middle of the chatter here IMO.

Thanks for your post,
I have flirted with the idea of going past the factory weight limit because of all of the modifications Iíve done with F350 springs and other mods.
No more.
Spaggs is offline  
Old 09-22-2020, 10:07 AM   #75
Rivet Master
 
KK4YZ's Avatar
 
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee , Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
Hey, if you love the tow vehicle debates you should try having a root canal, it would be right up your alley!
Nah. One can enjoy the tow vehicle debates with detached amusement. Root canal not so much😀
KK4YZ is offline  
Old 09-22-2020, 10:19 AM   #76
Rivet Master
 
KK4YZ's Avatar
 
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee , Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
But some may focus on the tow rating. Why?

The point was made that he couldnít stop in time. Why is that a tow vehicle capability issue? No trailer brakes? Malfunctioning brakes? Or just travelling too fast?
Most likely the lawyer focused on the tow rating because thatís documented and easy to understand by a jury.

ďCouldnít stop in time...Ē How much time was the driver allotted to stop? You donít know but just throw out FUD to obscure the point. How far out on a limb are you willing to go to argue your position?
KK4YZ is offline  
Old 09-22-2020, 10:58 AM   #77
4 Rivet Member
 
2014 27' Flying Cloud
Wenatchee , Washington
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 357
I'm enjoying the tow vehicle debates...

Most traffic collisions occur due to a combination of factors, usually involving more than one driver and that appears to be the case here. One would assume the proximate cause of the crash was the Failure to Yield the Right-of-Way. To blame the whole thing on the other driver (if thatís what the Court did) seems unjust (absent some form of gross negligence). Depending on the amount of money involved youíd think this would be a good case to appeal. (Of course thatís usually decided by the insurance company.)

(Iím not an attorney but I have investigated a lot of traffic collisions)
__________________
2018 Ram 3500 SLT CTD 4X4 pickup
2014 Airstream Flying Cloud 27FB
WBCCI #7180
21Airstream is offline  
Old 09-22-2020, 11:43 AM   #78
Rivet Master
 
2019 25' International
Providence , Rhode Island
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaggs View Post
This video is what drives all of my conversations when it comes to tow vehicles:

I have an Excursion, but with the help of this forum and the Ford Truck Enthusiasts forum, I have been able to build a solid platform for towing. The biggest takeaway from this forum, for me, has been top speed. Thanks to all of you, and this video, I will not go over 65 mph.
Everytime I click on one of these posts, I learn something. You guys have been very helpful!

Spaggs, what the end result, did you find out they were ok? Wow that was a disaster.....why did he not hit the trailer brakes??? OMG....
kittmaster is offline  
Old 09-22-2020, 12:01 PM   #79
Rivet Master
 
KK4YZ's Avatar
 
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee , Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Airstream View Post
Most traffic collisions occur due to a combination of factors, usually involving more than one driver and that appears to be the case here. One would assume the proximate cause of the crash was the Failure to Yield the Right-of-Way. To blame the whole thing on the other driver (if thatís what the Court did) seems unjust (absent some form of gross negligence). Depending on the amount of money involved youíd think this would be a good case to appeal. (Of course thatís usually decided by the insurance company.)

(Iím not an attorney but I have investigated a lot of traffic collisions)
I think youíre absolutely right. I believe the post that cited this case was to bring up the point that there is a legal risk to exceeding manufacturers specs re: towing. I didnít hear anyone say the court decision was right....but it is reality. Further if the decision stands, I believe it becomes part of case law (disclaimer: Iím not a lawyer either&#128512.
KK4YZ is offline  
Old 09-22-2020, 03:03 PM   #80
E Pluribus Aluminus
 
Jaxon's Avatar
 
2008 34' Classic S/O
1967 22' Safari
2005 30' Classic
Land Of Enchantment , New Mexico
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,275
Images: 9
I prefer to combine personal protection with my tow vehicle...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	619790E0-9596-46AB-9C39-CB7EF3D0BAA1.jpeg
Views:	4
Size:	102.1 KB
ID:	379258  
__________________
.
Bill & Kim
WBCCI 7005 * AIR 9218
The trouble with trouble is it always starts out as fun...
Jaxon is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Enjoying HD satellite TV xo1rider Audio, Video & TV 14 11-28-2015 02:44 PM
Enjoying our 'new' Sovereign jornvango Photography 2 12-08-2012 09:21 PM
Enjoying our Airstreams Globie64 On The Road... 1 03-18-2012 03:57 PM
Enjoying Every Minute mbrod666 Member Introductions 5 08-25-2010 11:34 AM
Democratic debates are on (now) tonight!!! wanderer1 Off Topic Forum 3 10-30-2007 08:36 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.