How concerned are you about your trucks payload

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by foobar

Fair point. My current tow rig with a 2016 Porsche Cayenne S and a 2022 Globetrotter 20FB twin is absolutely set up correctly and the setup is verified with CAT scales (and the seat of my pants when driving, lol) because it absolutely "must" be setup and tuned correctly.

Given that I will eventually get a tow vehicle with more payload so I can carry more stuff, I have spent 9 months researching HD trucks, trying to decide diesel vs gas, brand, how much payload I need, etc.

And I have determined that many 3/4 ton trucks like F250's don't have enough payload margin to be able to simply say that "you don't ever have to worry about payload or towing setup again".

Yesterday, I took photos of 3 different "yellow stickers" on the driver door for F250's with payload limits of 1800, 1900, and around 2000 lbs respectively. FYI, these were diesel trucks (the diesel drive train costs you 800-900 lbs of payload capacity due to the heavy weight of the diesel drivetrain).

With 1100-1200lb tongue weight, an overweight driver and passenger (say, 450lbs), a couple of teenage males in the 2nd row of seats (say 350 lbs total), a 60lb dog, a couple of e-bikes (160lbs), you are already at 2,220lbs and are over the payload limit of all three trucks I looked at and that's with a truck bed that is pretty much empty except for the ebikes. You can come up with lots of very realistic and minimal loads that push the payload over the limit.

I figure the truck needs around 3000lbs of payload capacity at a minimum in order to safely have pretty much a "throw it into the truck attitude and forget about it" attitude and actually get away with it, generally speaking.

148K miles now on my F250 6.7L, 4x4 KR model. 2150lbs payload; no extra passengers, nor dog, and my tongue actual weight is 1100 on our 28' FCT. Loaded up including Honda 2200, propane firepit, propane, bbq, Weboost antena, Clamshell, and tools, I have 160lbs extra payload capacity, should I need/want to carry kayaks or what ever. You can easily get a larger payload if you don't get the 4x4 or gussied up KR or Platinum F250 models, or elect to go with the gas model. F350 would give more payload for sure. After towing 3 different model 25' AS's over the past 15 years, we know what works for our needs and our configuration works for us. YMMV.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Not exactly correct. F250 diesel with High Capacity Trailer Tow Package offered since late 2017 has an additional leaf and F350 rear end giving it 10,800lb GVWR. This compensated for the additional diesel weight. Below is the sticker from my very loaded 2022 F250 Lariat 4x4 diesel with HCTTP.

If you add an F350 rear spring to an F250, I think you just created an F350 with an F250 badge on it??

[foobar]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

148K miles now on my F250 6.7L, 4x4 KR model. 2150lbs payload; no extra passengers, nor dog, and my tongue actual weight is 1100 on our 28' FCT. Loaded up including Honda 2200, propane firepit, propane, bbq, Weboost antena, Clamshell, and tools, I have 160lbs extra payload capacity, should I need/want to carry kayaks or what ever. You can easily get a larger payload if you don't get the 4x4 or gussied up KR or Platinum F250 models, or elect to go with the gas model. F350 would give more payload for sure. After towing 3 different model 25' AS's over the past 15 years, we know what works for our needs and our configuration works for us. YMMV.

I am not trying to imply that F250's are not up to the task, so no offense was intended.

I have recently seen a couple of folks with a generic F250 diesel and a 27 and 30ft Airstream say that they don't ever bother to weigh the truck and trailer anymore after they upgraded from an F150.

One of them had a camper shell on it and a huge amount of gear in the back. I bet they are over the payload of their F250 given that the couple in question weighed at least 450lbs between the two of them.

In their minds, they have a HD truck so they are "good to go", no matter what they throw in the truck.

You are clearly not in the same category, lol. You have taken the right steps to ensure that you are in the green in terms of your tow vehicle limits.

Diesel F250's are perfectly workable and generally provide 600lbs of additional payload over a gasoline F150, but 2000lbs of payload doesn't put anyone in the 'don't have to ever worry about payload again' category. That is all I am trying to say.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by foobar

If you add an F350 rear spring to an F250, I think you just created an F350 with an F250 badge on it??

Certainly a tweener. I would not hesitate to go F350 but just wanted to point out there is an F300 option out there. I special ordered mine and did not realize Ford was shut down on orders so F350 makes sense right now.

Like you we did not want to worry about payload anymore but at the same time recognize we sometimes want to take a lot of stuff. It is just DW and I but in addition to all the toys (bikes, kayaks, etc) we also occasionally want to take our 50 gallon horse tank for added water while boondocking. I think "stuff" is the number one reason for not doing things the CanAm Andy way. Not knocking what he is selling but like others we still need a capable truck to take all our toys.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Certainly a tweener. I would not hesitate to go F350 but just wanted to point out there is an F300 option out there. I special ordered mine and did not realize Ford was shut down on orders so F350 makes sense right now.

Like you we did not want to worry about payload anymore but at the same time recognize we sometimes want to take a lot of stuff. It is just DW and I but in addition to all the toys (bikes, kayaks, etc) we also occasionally want to take our 50 gallon horse tank for added water while boondocking. I think "stuff" is the number one reason for not doing things the CanAm Andy way. Not knocking what he is selling but like others we still need a capable truck to take all our toys.

Thanks for the information though. If F350's are not available to order, then I could check to see if an F250 with the High Capacity Trailer Tow Package could be ordered instead.

[B17drvr]

Something to consider with the Cayenne, if you breakdown in the boonies it can be a long wrecker ride for service. We were in Roswell NM at an RV park and the space next to us we met a couple with a Cayenne. We had some conversation about their Cayenne and how well it towed. They mentioned that they were considering a Ford expedition for service reasons. They said were we were in New Mexico the nearest Porsche dealer was either Albuquerque or El Paso (3 hour drives) and that was a concern to them. Every small town has a Ford or Chevy dealership, but not so much for the German vehicles. That was an interesting take on things.

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Not sure how helpful that test would be...they may fail the test but the first thing you should do to stop the sway is gently accelerate as you apply the trailer brakes. NOT try to steer out of it.

Am I rong

Bob
����

What the questioner is referring to is not related to trailer sway. It's a test of handling dynamics - at what speed (or level of g's) in a turn will the tongue weight and the overall mass of the trailer cause the tow vehicle's rear tires to start sliding, i.e. put the tow vehicle into an oversteer attitude?

I have my thoughts on this, but I'd be hijacking the thread if I include them.

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by jcl

I had a similar issue with a European SUV. All the examples had the same payload label sticker number, which matched the published literature. Weighing the vehicle showed that the manufacturer had left some payload capacity on the table. It appears that some manufacturers don’t see maximizing payload claims as a marketing feature, so they nominate a conservative number that a range of models may meet, and print one common label. It is obvious that some manufacturers, especially of North American pickups, want to get every lb they can, to the extent of weighing finished vehicles and calculating the maximum possible payload. But not all manufacturers will do that. The NHTSA in their guidance to manufacturers for the payload label stated:



Just weigh the vehicle, and compare it to the GVWR label. That is the sure way.

It is similar for towing capacity, despite what some here have claimed about these figures being absolute maximums determined by engineering teams.

Thank you. This explains a lot.

I've have a sedan with an 880 lb payload sticker, and a station wagon with a 950 lb payload sticker. However, when I weigh them, the difference between curb weight and GVWR is 1200 to 1300 lbs. And these are technically compact and mid-size vehicles.

The conclusion is, the payload sticker is what you follow when you don't actually weigh your vehicle. Otherwise, you are good to load it up to GVWR. And there is a good argument to use combined GAWR if a weight distributing hitch is being used to transfer load to the front axle, which is readily done with a torsionally stiff unibody vehicle.

[Andy543]

Originally Posted by AlbertF

Thank you. This explains a lot.

I've have a sedan with an 880 lb payload sticker, and a station wagon with a 950 lb payload sticker. However, when I weigh them, the difference between curb weight and GVWR is 1200 to 1300 lbs. And these are technically compact and mid-size vehicles.

The conclusion is, the payload sticker is what you follow when you don't actually weigh your vehicle. Otherwise, you are good to load it up to GVWR. And there is a good argument to use combined GAWR if a weight distributing hitch is being used to transfer load to the front axle, which is readily done with a torsionally stiff unibody vehicle.

Agree. If there is a conflict between the payload sticker and the GVWR placard, then you have to go by the GVWR placard. The three numbers on the placard (GVWR, GAWR front and GAWR rear) are the vehicle's design limits that the manufacturer warns should never be exceeded. If you go the towing section of your owner's manual, they usually only mention those numbers, not the payload number.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by Andy543

Agree. If there is a conflict between the payload sticker and the GVWR placard, then you have to go by the GVWR placard. The three numbers on the placard (GVWR, GAWR front and GAWR rear) are the vehicle's design limits that the manufacturer warns should never be exceeded. If you go the towing section of your owner's manual, they usually only mention those numbers, not the payload number.

The only numbers mentioned in my Owner’s Manual refer back to the payload on the sticker, then mentioning I can take those numbers up and down 12% grade without issue. This is without a WDH. We have a BMW X5 with the tow package.

I’ve found several conflicting numbers for payload and tow weights, all for my specific vehicle. Outside of North America, those numbers are consistent across the entire G05 platform. N.A. BMWs come standard with run-flats which aren’t great for towing. Replacing them right away and getting the right wheels makes a huge difference.

Our payload is low but certainly as good as most 1/2 tons. IMO it *tows* much better than most 1/2 tons.

We’re not full-timers and we don’t pull long distances. We stay within payload.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by AlbertF

What the questioner is referring to is not related to trailer sway. It's a test of handling dynamics - at what speed (or level of g's) in a turn will the tongue weight and the overall mass of the trailer cause the tow vehicle's rear tires to start sliding, i.e. put the tow vehicle into an oversteer attitude?

I have my thoughts on this, but I'd be hijacking the thread if I include them.

I'm really not concerned about how "Cloudsplitter" handles on a Gymkhana course at speed, as long as it doesn't sway on the interstate in heavy winds, rain & passing 18 wheelers. KISS.

"Worry... a brain exercise done when it really wants to sleep" RLC

Bob
🇺🇸

[Andy543]

Interesting. The Europeans may not be with the American program. But I do agree, they make awesome SUV tow vehicles that in many respects will out-tow a 1/2 ton truck.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by Andy543

Interesting. The Europeans may not be with the American program. But I do agree, they make awesome SUV tow vehicles that in many respects will out-tow a 1/2 ton truck.

They are* ...sort of.

The receiver is unique to NA (and they're built in South Carolina). In Europe, they use a gooseneck.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by foobar

I am not trying to imply that F250's are not up to the task, so no offense was intended.

I have recently seen a couple of folks with a generic F250 diesel and a 27 and 30ft Airstream say that they don't ever bother to weigh the truck and trailer anymore after they upgraded from an F150.

One of them had a camper shell on it and a huge amount of gear in the back. I bet they are over the payload of their F250 given that the couple in question weighed at least 450lbs between the two of them.

In their minds, they have a HD truck so they are "good to go", no matter what they throw in the truck.

You are clearly not in the same category, lol. You have taken the right steps to ensure that you are in the green in terms of your tow vehicle limits.

Diesel F250's are perfectly workable and generally provide 600lbs of additional payload over a gasoline F150, but 2000lbs of payload doesn't put anyone in the 'don't have to ever worry about payload again' category. That is all I am trying to say.

Thanks; no issues taken for sure. When we decided to get the larger 28' AS, I made the decision to get the 6.7L KR 4x4 model after talking with several folks and of course, reading the Forum threads over the years. Having the Platinum F150 4x4 prior, I knew I wanted the "bells and whistles", just didn't want the sunroof. We wanted the King Ranch model for the brown interior mostly vs the Platinum which only offered Charcoal color that year. (wife choice) That being said, we were dealing with same dealer we purchased our last 4 vehicles from,. I had driven all the 3/4T models from GM and RAM and decided F250 King Ranch was the one. 4x4 because we did go to our place in MT in winter, and it has come in handy. Even used it in sand and mud while towing the AS. Towing with the diesel has been a pleasant experience, IMHO; no worries about control, strong winds, and the engine brake when in cruise with auto distance features set makes for a very relaxing experience. For our use, the F250 is fine, even when we took our kayaks along, but the F350 offers the extra payload discussed here, which means you could also get a topper with racks on the back to carry more "stuff"...that would be a plus if I were still carrying the kayaks around, especially since we also have the RAD electric bikes now..I put one on the Fiama with the "fat tire" rack, and one folded inside between the twin beds...but I digress....and this thread seems to be a bit off track now as happens when the Porsche/Audi/BMW topic comes up.

[xpcdoojk]

Originally Posted by Andy543

Agree. If there is a conflict between the payload sticker and the GVWR placard, then you have to go by the GVWR placard. The three numbers on the placard (GVWR, GAWR front and GAWR rear) are the vehicle's design limits that the manufacturer warns should never be exceeded. If you go the towing section of your owner's manual, they usually only mention those numbers, not the payload number.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but. What about fuel levels? IE a vehicle weighed with an almost empty gas tank is clearly going to weigh less than it will with a full tank. could that account for the difference between the numbers IE GVWR and Payload?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by AlbertF

Thank you. This explains a lot....

The conclusion is, the payload sticker is what you follow when you don't actually weigh your vehicle. Otherwise, you are good to load it up to GVWR. And there is a good argument to use combined GAWR if a weight distributing hitch is being used to transfer load to the front axle, which is readily done with a torsionally stiff unibody vehicle.

Exactly.

[SVTRIDE]

Originally Posted by foobar

If you add an F350 rear spring to an F250, I think you just created an F350 with an F250 badge on it??

Exactly!

UNLESS your state DMV fees are stupid expensive for 350 size trucks, or your insurance company regards a 350 as a commercial truck or your HOA forbids 350 or greater trucks in driveways...
Fortunately for me, MI makes no difference

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by xpcdoojk

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but. What about fuel levels? IE a vehicle weighed with an almost empty gas tank is clearly going to weigh less than it will with a full tank. could that account for the difference between the numbers IE GVWR and Payload?

That can absolutely make a difference. Current day Payload stickers (at least the past 5 years, longer for some manufacturers) in the US are supposed to include fuel but not any occupants or after factory upgrades. Espcsially for more customizable vehicles like trucks, the payload is useful when shopping, but becomes meaningless once you take delivery and start modifying, adding gear, etc.

[CWSWine]

Here is the GM sticker on a 2500 and from what I've been told the information on the sticker below will be on all vehicles sold by 2026 and has been mandated by our Department of Transportation. Notice the separate tongue weight specs.

Comments?

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

Here is the GM sticker on a 2500 and from what I've been told the information on the sticker below will be on all vehicles sold by 2026 and has been mandated by our Department of Transportation. Notice the separate tongue weight specs.

Comments?

Hmmm... can't exceed the curb weight... that seems problematic.

Tongue weight specs seem often overlooked. I've seen several confident 3/4 ton truck owners who claimed they were in spec even though the unloaded tongue weight of their trailer was exceeding the manufacturer's specs without a WDH.