Horse before the Wagon or Wagon before the Horse?

[Ray Eklund]

Please help me, if I fell off the last wagon leaving town.

In the mid 19th Century to the early 20th Century.... Your Options:

Horse, Oxen or Mules provided the power to pull wagons across the Western USA and to be accurate... everywhere. City Folk. Country Folk... all kinds of Folk understood you need something to pull the Wagon.

If it were a Big Wagon... you needed MORE Horse, Oxen or Mules to pull it.

If it were a Bigger Wagon... full of everything and the kitchen sink... more live srtock were needed to pull it. Call it Horse Power if you like. Hmmm. ring a bell in your 'noggin?

If it were a Small Wagon... less. OK. A Cart... a Goat will do. There is a relationship between a Wagon and how to move it from point A to B. Easy, peasy... to some of us.

A duck can pull a small cart. A mouse... smaller, but more energetic. Keep dreaming.

Following me? I hope not, as we throw up a lot of dust traveling off the paved roads. We have our Wagon and Mammals figured out. Get out of our way... Slow Poke.

Why would someone ask what I need to pull a Wagon, if they know they need something to pull it? I shiver to think about all of the options...

Option 1: Good
Option 2: Not Good

Disaster: Just make it up and use what is festering in the Barn will do.

A Wagon is Expensive. New or Used. Often a Used Wagon will cost more to keep running than a New Wagon. Depends on what model of wagon you own. OK? I know from experience.

A Team of Mules, Horses or Oxen are expensive. They need a Vet. They need Food. They need Water. They need to Rest. They need to eliminate the used Fuel and Water, often. I rode a Stage Coach at Fort Robinson, Nebraska... six horse power and watch your step. OK?

Now there are paved roads. The Oregon Trail has some of it paved, Interstate.

Are you are confused? If I have a BIG Wagon full of STUFF... what kind of Tow Vehicle do I need, today?

There are many Poor Choices and Fewer Smart Choices. Really... check your wagon and horse, oxen and mule count, again. What is your current view? Not good, I say.

Have the Livestock to pull FIRST. Then find the proper Wagon. Genius, I say.

Or... Buy the Wagon you Like and then Buy the Livestock needed to pull it. Genius, again, I say.

But... trying to use the Pony, you own, and want the Big Heavy Wagon is not going to make it work. Watch some Westerns on television... the huge thing filling a wall. BIG. Think BIG Trailer... BIG OXEN. The view is the same, so I would opt for Horse Power... but if you get a Mule, you will not get too far.

Where am I wrong? Others, please step in it, with me. Wash your boots and hands please. Lets talk Horse Sense, for once.

[Ray Eklund]

Trailer Choices:

The length and weight.
Single, Double, Triple Axle.

Now you have the Tow Vehicle... horse power and capacity.

Single Axle Trailers are like a Teeter Totter. You take the fulcrum and move it... it changes the weight distribution. Imagine adding weight, changing it from one end to the other, make one side longer, shorter, heavier... etc.

Engineers, Geometry and making things work... somehow.

Double Axle... gets tricky. Triple Axle... where to place them, as well. Look at your trailer... interesting where the Axles have been placed? Magic on a computer...

Do you believe that Inventors... sleep and count Sheep? No way. Their mind is moving things around, improving ideas, making things from partial ideas, that did not work but had potential...work. We all figure things out awake and even better when not awake. Wonderful things happen while sleeping... like tossing and turning.

Your Tow Vehicle is part of the equation. The tongue weight onto the Ball of your Hitch. This is the Teeter Totter fulcrum. Move weight forward... too much weight on the ball. Move weight backward... reducing weight on the ball.

Not everyone sits and Day Dreams. Not everyone is going to Invent the Wheel. North, Central and South America... had not invented the wheel. Obviously moved heavy items on round logs and pulled and pushed. So millions of people today... have no idea about a Fulcrum, Geometry or Weight on the Ball.

Once you begin to think and wonder WHY, you begin to understand.

I am a Neanderthal. I can tinker on mechanical things... but find a bad Chip in a Computer... never. Cannot imagine it. But I sure can imagine the importance of matching the Right Vehicle to the Trailer.

All of this might seem primitive... until you begin to think about it.

I figured it out... without much help from anyone but understanding what was happening once my Tow Vehicle was attached to the Airstream. Then... discovering it was not all perfect.

There was a lot of fudging going on to sell you a trailer and you decide if your vehicle was capable.

So tonight... you have a Tow Vehicle and Trailer weight distribution problem. Figure it out. Understand why? What can be done about it. Can your Hitch help by changing how it is set?

Otherwise, you will never understand. Those that do... try to help... and those who do not take the time... just go on... never understanding and repeating the same mistakes.

hink. Sleep on it. Figure it out. It is not easy. If it were... I would have had better things to do with my time.

Now I spend my time thinking about where to go, once I figured out the Tow Vehicle, Trailer and Weight Distribution. Three moving parts. One brain to make sense of it.

Some can. Most cannot. Lots of moving parts. Sleep on it.

When you see a Tow Vehicle and Tailer combo... set up right. There is your opportunity to ask questions. Don't be a Neanderthal.

[Dennis C]

Unfortunately, most people buy a huge wagon and assume that their lovely quarter horse will pull it. After all, quarter horses are pretty strong! And we all know that the missus won’t be happy riding a draft horse like a Clydesdale or a Shire for everyday activities! They’re big, they’re uncomfortable to ride, and they eat too much.

[Ray Eklund]

Cheyenne Frontier Days... Clydesdales rule! Then the City Street Sweepers follow them before the next marching band arrives...

People wonder why Arabians were used on Chariots and not other breeds. Never give it any thought. Some relation to Towing and Endurance of the Tow Vehicle and Trailer. Charlton Heston comes to mind... Ben-Hur. The first Trailer curbing...?

Now that I leave no doubt being a Neanderthal... and out of touch.

Tow Vehicle Tires:

Your trailer has E Rated, at least yours might if expensive enough... should be better if not equal. Our F350 has E Rated Tires.. 27 foot upgrade to E, bought the tires alrady attached to the F350. Whiners... want to save money... until the blow out takes out your vehicles fender well and smacks the Airstream in Tow.

If you are Towing your Airstream with, sadly C Rated tires on your Tow Vehicle. Maybe the Tow Vehicle is for hauling groceries and not a Bambi 16 foot. Even that had better tires than your Tow Vehicle.

Ahhhh so sad when your Tow Vehicle rides stiff when not towing... but smooth when towing. That is because it should have tires equal to what your trailer has or should. That is good. If your tow vehicle's rear end is dragging... and your WD cannot help... get use to it. It will not change, by staring at it.

Marathon C Rated Tires on the OLDER 23 foot Airstream days are gone. Took awhile and a lot of negative feedback. Ours was a 2006. Good trailer. Bad tires.

Now E Rated 15 inch... Goodyears... about time. Maybe 16 inch Michelins if you haul a 27 foot and longer. Not bad for ALL Airstreams, but I do not worry about Popped Rivets. They pop on the Interior Curved areas... first. No matter the tires. Of course, your fault. I Lath Screw them permanently... but I am a Neanderthal. If something fails... avoid repeating the Popping Rivet Syndrome.

My F350 4x4 has Michelin E Rated Tires from the Factory.
My 27 foot International has upgraded 16 inch wheels and E Rated Michelins.

No blowouts... on either.

Often if you curb your trailer tires on a curve... bad judgment. Not the tire's fault for giving up after the first, second of fifth curbing. Or sidewalls along a curb. Your fault... not the tire.

A sharp object on the Highway. That happens. An Ice Cooler... also. So be aware of your surroundings.

Tow Vehicle choice. Trailer choice. Tire choice. The TVTT's of owning a trailer.

Yes, I know my photo is not updated, but I learn the easy and hard way. You will as well.

The Forum is great for information. Absorb, digest and comprehend. Dumb things can happen to Smart People. My first two years owning an Airstream was like digging holes looking for answers in my back yard.

Tow Vehicle too light but with D Rate tires. Trailer (23 foot) with 14 inch C rated tires.

You spend a lot of money to keep your combo clean and shiny. I look at your Tires... much like understanding that shiny does not travel well on flat tires.

Do not be concerned about your hot water tank does not deliver immediate hot water in the Shower. Tires, tire pressure debates... and remember. If you tow a lot, the tow vehicle tires need to be replaced before the front tires get worn out. We did that this Fall. Hmmmm... nobody talks about that.

When you turn in your sleep tonight... think about what can go wrong with the choice you have made. Not the cost of the RV Park with a malfunctioning electrical hookup.

And... if no one wants to participate... you are way ahead of myself. I learned something. You can lead a "Horse to Water... but Cannot make the Horse Drink".

You may have to THINK about that one... and eat some hay.

I have my thinking bottle. Ahhhhh. Sleep well, too.

[renderit]

Astute observations sir!

I am also of the generation who knows "When the tail goes up, get out of the way..."

If I might:

"You are raised by your parents, but formed by your friends" - somebody, I think that guy who kept his socks in crates...

I was a child of the 50's (18 or 19, I forget which).

All the boys that banded together talked constantly aboot the best horses. We could all identify the sub-species and the good points and bad points of each.

Back then we all had jobs at a young age, typically 14-16. It was not "child labor" it was just what you did. Common sense abounded. They still delivered milk and Charley's Chips to the door. Eggs as well. If you wanted there were opportunities galore to make that extra 15 cents to buy 3 candy bars a week.

My best buddies were Bud and Cooter. Bud delivered his Dad's elixirs door to door and to the pharmacy. His Dad trusted him with the family draft horse for the task. It was a big smelly beast and if you stood near the rear section you understood why they called it a draft horse. It was slow and ate a ton of hay, but hay was cheap. It was well up to the task of carrying many many bottles of his Dad's finest.

Cooter worked at Jy-Jy's Upscale Emporium as a stock boy. He would buy an older smaller nag and spend tons of time tinkering with ways to make her faster and better looking. He was kind of a wizard at that stuff and turned a good few bucks profit making them over. He had ideas that were really innovative. He would chew the hay while riding her and blow it through a pipe into the nags throat to get more energy into and out of the horse. It worked great unless the horse blew first! We called it "Fool Injection". Later he came up with a bellows that worked off of the wagon wheel to blow the masticated mix into the horse. Making it a "Stupid Charger". But the pre-chewing took time so he would always be chewing and spitting while doing anything else. But hay was cheap at the time so whatever...

I delivered newspapers. The "White Lakes Tribune and Tribulations - All the news we want you to know". My Dad was an engineer and as such had no need for other than a family horse with a wagon big enough to carry us to church and the store and whatever. He "horse-pooled" with his fellow workers so our horse was there to do grocery runs, etc. None the less, it was too valuable a commodity for me to be driving so I used an old wash tub on a sled and had the family dog pull it. In the winter it was great, but in the summer I had to help the dog pull as a sled don't work for chit on dirt. I saved enough to later get a goat cart (much to the dog's joy!). In our spare time we often had goat cart races in the neighborhood. Awesome times! Cooter usually won but I didn't ask what the did to his goat. Didn't want to know.

[renderit]

As we grew our thoughts slowly drifted to those giggling annoying things which used to bug us but they were becoming oddly more worth our while. Of course we noticed they seemed to be attracted to the rich guys with the fancy horses. Appaloosa's, Morgans, the occasional Arabian and Thoroughbred. Then some foreign dude showed up one day riding a Cheetah! The girls absolutely swooned! Cooter (who had been doing well above his station in this respect) suddenly turned TO EXOTICS. We don't know how, but soon he had a stable of them.

By this time camping became "a thing". My Dad purchased a wagon with a fold out top that turned into a tent for us all to sleep in. We called it a "pop-over". We camped all the time. I was annoyed at first but I noticed that camping seemed to be enjoyed by many different "giggling things" so I was good with it. We went on longer and longer trips. The wagon was heavy, but the family horse was rather fat (it ate a LOT of hay, but hay was still cheap so...). It would not go up the hills very fast but was fat enough that going down was not bad with a judicious use of the hand brake. It would get very winded in the mountains (many years later Cooter's "Fool Injection" would solve that problem).

At some point Dad decided to go to a draft horse with the tent built on it back. A little top heavy but less time setting up camp, so we liked it. He always wanted to buy the Percheron from that French feller Chevrolette down the road but they were too expensive so he settled on a draft horse from Ferd. He always complained that the horse would stare at you with one eye then the other and smile. He called it "the twin eye beam". You never knew when it would start and it's horseshoes in the front would wear out real quick with indents like a cup.

In the mean time Cooter, Bud and I formed a jug band 'cause the giggling things seemed to like to dance and we were pretty lame in that department. Bud had a wide selection of jugs and bottles to blow into. Cooter (being into the exotic stuff from Jy-Jys Upscale Emporium) bought a "Bayan-Joe" with strings and such. I flipped over the wash tub I delivered newspapers from, used some string and the stick I used to hold the treat in front of the goat to get him going and we called it "a washtub with a stick and a string". We could snap out a pretty lively tune and made some coin I tell you... (We also noticed the giggling things would bat their eyes and such whilst you were playing, but had little time for you after the set.)

There were summers we (Cooter, Bud and me) would go "on tour" and camp to save money. Me and Bud would sleep in the back of his elixir wagon (the business was now growing into a brewery so there were ALWAYS a few beers in there). By now Bud was buying big beautiful draft horses from Clyde in Dale. I started buying his older Clyde's to pull my wagon.

But Cooter insisted in taking his stable of cheetahs pulling his ever growing collection of bayan-joes. We noticed a problem right off the bat. Trying to get them going in the same direction was kinda like herdin' cats because it was like... herdin' cats. Also, them cheetahs ain't too interested in hay. When it came time to charge them up the local cow pasture, farm, campers children, etc. were in mortal danger. Also there were NO

[renderit]

veterinarians who would come with a mile of them. You would pull up to their office with one and he'd say something like "this is a foreign thang" and walk (or run) away. Cheetah doctors could only be found in big cities. Meat WAS expensive so Cooter did the logical thing. He sold the cheetahs and bought...........ostriches.

Now I know what you are saying. "An ostrich can't pull a wagon!". But Cooter was communicating with some oracle who told him "The knees are the problem. Put water wings on their back to give them lift and you'll be OK." It worked great for a short while. He would always be at the camp site well ahead of us now looking for fruits and lizards to feed them ostriches (which the locals appreciated more than the "cheetah thang"). But the knees (being backwards and such) wore oot faster than it took a can of beans to go through you. Also the ostrich handled like crap when it wasn't hooked to the wagon. The final straw came when he stopped on a steep downward slope one day and the wagon rolled right over them ostriches! We slept great after that (feathers and such) and had a pretty tasty meal for a few nights I tell yah! We just hooked Cooter's wagon off'n the back of Bud's wagon and pulled it for the rest of the tour with no incidents (but many many stories).

Cooter had to find a replacement. Bud and me suggested a draft horse from Clyde. But he wasn't having it. Over the next few years he tried Jaguars (same problems as the cheetahs, but wow they looked cool), Herding dogs named Rover he found on the range (food was a problem as they liked meat like the jags and cheetahs and the vet bills were astronomical), and some really fast and fickle horses from some guy named Enzo and even friggin' SNAKES. Cobras. You can guess the problems there. Next road trip he showed up with...

A water buffalo. (They don't MOO. His said "MOOG".)

Now, you are sayin' "Well that should work! They are HUGE and STRONG and really pretty quick when they are chasing you! They go through water!" And you would be pretty much right. Humans, bein' as they always tend to try to be positive often fail to look at the negative. Water buffalo ain't very friendly. They have an attitude. But they will eat you outta house and home and only eat water cress which is hard to find on the trails through the Red Desert in Wyoming territories.

BUT (and they have big ones) they are big enough to carry you, your gear, your bayan-joes, your entourage, and enough of their own food to get you anywhere. But there are no veterinarians period who know what makes them tick. And the harnesses and controls and baskets and wagons and every-damn-thang needs to be custom made.

Mom and Dad (God rest his soul) eventually ended up with a team of oxen they had their whole camp set up on the back of and pulled the family nag in back so they could go into town and find a cafeteria to eat at.

I found a lovely lady I call "the Princessa" that I married and had young-uns with. We continued tenting, then "pop-overing", then we bought this clever wagon made from

[renderit]

beer cans and kept getting bigger ones. I'm still buying them Clydes from Dale. Served me right for many many years.

Bud never got married, but continued making beers and selling the used cans to the guy who made my wagons. His horses have now eclipsed his beer in brand recognition and I'm not sure, but I expect they help him make his beers.

The last me and Bud ever saw Cooter he was "headed out over yonder to live in the wyld, naturally" with his fourth wife, the water buffalo and about 4 tons of water cress.

Thank God he never heard of the new trend of using bats to pull a wagon. I have no idea how people do that as they tend to hide in the sun so you can only travel at night?

[Ray Eklund]

There is a little Neanderthal in each of us.

Some Forum Members just want to know 'how to unclog my RV Toilet' and others go on and try to figure it out on their own.

... others, figure it out on their own and have interesting stories to make us all smile and call it a... good day. Thanks renderit.

[Ray Eklund]

I received a notice that I posted.

I figured no one would really figure out that my story was about the 'wrong' Tow Vehicle and/or 'wrong' Trailer choices made by some people to save money, when that is not the reason a proper match is important.

Safety... of course, is expensive, so ignore it. We pass these Combos on the Interstates dragging chains and headlights shining into the trees.

Not the 'Argue Thread about Tow Vehicle and Trailer' being matched with a Hitch choice to correct for your misjudgment.

If you want bigger... you need bigger on both ends. Like wearing tight pants doing yard work. Something is going to suffer and it is not your eye brows.

Buy the Trailer that can easily be towed by the vehicle you want to use for towing. Even horse drawn wagon owners figured that out for hundreds of years, yet modern Human Beans... with all their intellect and 'know it all' think using a WD as a Magic Problem Solver for misjudging best combinations to save money... and not having a Tow Vehicle that rides like a Sherman Tank... with a Smile. Like many of use enjoy... while passing those who are still impared.