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dkottum · 03-22-2016, 01:16 AM

jonnie3, could the son and family and stuff travel for weekends in their own vehicle so you could keep the near-new Tundra. Might be tough to seat six in a five-passenger truck anyway, not to mention the Airstream.

xrvr · 03-22-2016, 06:23 AM

Because of the heavy Diesel engine, there is only Ten psi difference in the front max load pressure and light loads pressure in my truck. Now the rear is totally different. Front tire pressure is critical for best service. Too low and I have poor handling.

tjdonahoe · 03-22-2016, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy

Thanks for thread. Im in market for truck now. Been looking for comparison of hemi and diesel.

You want power at low rpm? If so go with the diesel, no such thing as too much money or too much horsepower.....

jonnie3 · 03-22-2016, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkottum

jonnie3, could the son and family and stuff travel for weekends in their own vehicle so you could keep the near-new Tundra. Might be tough to seat six in a five-passenger truck anyway, not to mention the Airstream.

I could but I would still need to get rid of my cap and leave my wife at home. Bottom line is a 3/4 ton is a better match for my needs. Thanks

slowmover · 03-26-2016, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce B

I have a lot of respect for Andy but I believe his assessment of the Rams steering is a little extreme. After an adjustment period, I find the steering of my 2500 to be very nice. Not as quick, no question...but it has lots of steering feel and it is easy to drive...

I'd also argue that safety is not always about a zig or a zag... I found that driving the Ram 2500 home (1000 towing miles in a long day) I was more relaxed and thus more attentive. That is arguably a safer state of being to drive in.

My 2500 feels just more comfortable and relaxing to drive than my F-150 ever did under the same conditions.

I'm not out here to drive aggressively...

No disrespect to Andy, he has mastered the art of tow vehicle/trailer set up for enhanced handling but I believe that there are other factors that bear consideration...

Bruce

Only braking precedes steering. Dull and dead steering means, hey, nothing happening here (akin to never looking in mirrors). Ignorance is not bliss (sort of like 5ers believing their rigs are stable). No feedback means stuff is happening long before driver is aware of it. It ain't relaxing.

My 3/4T 2WD Dodge is IFS with rack & pinion steering. A 4WD version is lousy in comparison. It's not the same truck except in every other way.

A truck this size is great when matched to a load. An A/S is not a matched load. I used to pull an empty trailer behind a one ton that weighed more than any of these beer can travel trailers. And then loaded said trailer with another 12-14k.

Andy's point is that the Tundra is more stable in design. And in dynamic situations. He's correct.

Those other factors are those you've given short shrift.

The greater the TV cargo capacity, the worse the inherent stability or safety of said vehicle. It's a huge trade off.

The 19k lb Kenworth tractor I drive must be more stable than any of the above, right? And that much more stable again with 60k of trailer and load.

Same for a one ton. Less stable. And more so, again, when hitched. Worse in every way. When it matters most.

Good luck

tjdonahoe · 03-27-2016, 07:27 AM

My 2500 feels good hooked up, has good power, when going up the pass , you don't have to have your flashers on in the slow lane and it handles good on snow and ice with 50 mph side winds...only more comfortable in the Kenworth grossing 96000.....

rostam · 03-27-2016, 07:58 AM

IMO, the importance of handling for towing is being greatly exaggerated in this forum. Stopping power, stability of the combo, and pulling power are all more important than handling. While lower center of gravity, independent suspension, and good handling characteristics are important, they are not a replacement for towing capacity. Otherwise, you could argue a Porsche Cayman is the best TV. An overloaded Tundra is a worse TV than a properly loaded HD truck, even with Tundra having better handling characteristics.

I have been driving for 25 years, and in that span had to do a single evasive maneuver to avoid an accident. I was driving a 6000# full size SUV with 10" of ground clearance. I made the evasive maneuver safely. Many times evasive maneuver can make a bad situation worse, causing you to lose control and go off the road and roll over or collide with other vehicles. Many times hard braking and staying in your lane is the best course of action. I have been in several accidents in the past 25 years. None would have been avoided with a better handling vehicle.

Bruce B · 03-27-2016, 08:43 AM

I think the steering feeling issue is no issue at all, it's being overblown!
It is nothing like "dead feeling", it is "different".
As for "dynamic stability" it is clear to me that my new 2500 if far more stable in both straight line and while turning when it is loaded with my tiny Airstream and the not insubstantial load we carry. No I have not approached the limits of handling with either truck but I've been in some high traffic, tight quarter, broken pavement situations with each, where I had to pay attention. The new truck is simply better, especially when carrying the 1200 pounds that the F-150 was rated for.

I've driven my share of cars to their limits, done a little auto crossing, and although I'm no Mario Andretti, I understand the subject matter. I ran a business that specialized in the repair and maintenance of some fairly high end European autos... I understand Andys point.

I have also advanced to the age where the "zig and zag" driving of my youth is no longer something I look forward to. Besides, smooth driving wins me far more accolades from my wife than any other style of driving ever did! That pays dividends, believe me!

It is just that once again, we are seeing the "my way or the highway" attitude about towing.

Too, I am not sold on the idea that what happens at the limits of handling is more important than what happens during the rest of the 99.999% of the time. There are good arguments that suggest that never getting to the .001% is perhaps more important...

I'm happy that you like your rack and pinon steering (btw, if it ever fails, p.m. me for the name of the premier rack remanufacturer in the country, you can save a ton and their work is flawless) I'm simply noting that the overall "feeling" of driving my 2500 in a "not a matched load" situation is not dead at all but rather nice actually. I'm sure that it is as easy to "thread the needle" with this truck as the Ford ever was and like anything else mechanical, it (the Ram) actually communicates what is happening just fine...you simply have to learn how to listen...

Bruce

BoldAdventure · 03-27-2016, 10:21 AM

I really like our 2500 with the Hemi 6.4; having just come from a 1500. The steering is different, but overall the vehicle feels solid. I notice a difference in towing already. But that is a perception difference. The Airstream doesn't transfer road feedback to the 2500 like it did to the 1500. Power is similar, but in a larger truck. Basically meaning it feels appropriate for the size.

Bruce B · 03-27-2016, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldAdventure

I really like our 2500 with the Hemi 6.4; having just come from a 1500. The steering is different, but overall the vehicle feels solid. I notice a difference in towing already. But that is a perception difference. The Airstream doesn't transfer road feedback to the 2500 like it did to the 1500. Power is similar, but in a larger truck. Basically meaning it feels appropriate for the size.

Nice color!
BB

Plan-B · 03-27-2016, 12:11 PM

I won't get pulled into what's best for anyone else other than what is best for me and based on my real world experiences. I have pulled my Airstreams for 20 years with every imaginable V8 pickup and SUV. I have pulled my Airstreams with two different 3/4 ton diesels, not including the Ram 2500 Cummins I took delivery a week ago. Last year I spent the summer pulling my heavy ladened 25FC and 2015 Ram 5.7 4WD, 8 psd. , all air suspension crew cab. I was impressed how far 1/2 tons have come along. And also being my first Ram/Dodge in my life, I was also impressed with how far Ram has come along.

I can't really say I ever felt unsafe in the 1/2 ton, mainly because I felt so much more uncomfortable managing the weight and loss of power and braking, that I altered my driving style to match my limitations. Thus, the 1/2 was safe, though per the Cat scales I was over the GVWR by some.

The thing that made me go back to 3/4 ton, again this is me, and I spend a ton of my time at higher altitudes, 2 lane mountain roads, not dirt, and crazy road grade % out west. Mainly WY and ID. At the end of the day pulling, I was mentally and physically exhausted. I didn't use to feel that way when pulling with 3/4 tons.

What I didn't like about 3/4 tons was their unloaded ride. With my 2016 Ram 2500 4WD, Cummins, Factory Rear Air, Crew, I feel I have the best of both worlds in one vehicle, "for me".

I now have 1,300 miles on the odometer and with a couple of hundred test miles with the AS, on Michigan's worse of the worse roads. Now all I want to do is drive and pull. And the fuel mileage, I think my other diesels must have had holes in the fuel tanks :-)

BoldAdventure · 03-27-2016, 02:47 PM

Great review and feedback Greg.

Plan-B · 03-28-2016, 08:58 AM

Something else I forgot to mention that sealed the deal on going back to a 3/4 ton. I can not speak for Ford or Chevy on this matter, maybe my 2011 f-250 Powerstroke was so equipped but if it was I would not have run into this issue given its payload rating. But, the newer Rams have this intelligence built into them, at lease the ones that have factory air suspension, and I have now owned both the 1500 and 2500. The intelligence being built into these new trucks is pretty astonishing. And to my dismay they also know if you have exceed your payload capacity rating posted on your door frame and this can cause you many warranty, legal and insurance issues. Let me explain:

After I finished my grand tour out West trip last year, in a new Ram 1500 'all air suspension' I needed to go have some warranty items attended to upon my return. I took it to my Ram/Ford dealership that luckily I have spent a small fortune on over the years and friends with the owners. When I checked into the service bay they plugged the wireless 'do hicky' into the truck and proceed to read all the stats and info from their iPad. The service manger, knows me way to well, said, 'Greg, you have an issue that if you had not brought your truck here you would have 'potentially' invalidated your engine and/or power train warranty if there was an issue on those items you had brought your truck in for'. He then pointed to the iPad and at the top in bold fonts, "PAYLOAD EXCEEDED". Wow, the truck told on me! Luckily I was not in for an engine, power train or suspension issue. I did not ask but I think they made the warning go away, I really don't know and didn't ask.

Here are the issues this present, and I am not talking the safety issues of exceeding your modern know it all 1/2 ton payload capacity. Also the points I am bringing up are real and discussed with an insurance agent and police officer friend(s):

First, with every new TV you purchase and RV insurance you purchase somewhere either explicit or implied are 'intended use clauses' and 'clauses not to exceed statements'. They are blanket statements that have BIG consequences especially if you are in an accident that significant damage has ocuured (vehicle TV and/or trailer) or bodily injury. In such cases the police WILL plug into your vehicle and read the status conditions your TV vehicle was in at the state of the instant before and the point of the collision. This information, if significant damage has occured or injury, will also be requested by the insurance company. Stats such as your speed at impact and just prior to impact, how much braking was applied and for how long etc etc. And here is the killer new one, was your TV exceeding its payload limits!!!

If you can be proven your TV was exceeding its payload limits (which can now be done electronically), as posted on the door frame, the intended use and not to exceed clauses contained within the TV manuals and, and the dozens of lawyer warnings splattered all over your truck manuals, and the intended use clauses in your insurance policies, you could be up a creek without a paddle.

Bottom line, if proven you exceeded your payload at point of accident, and easily done electronically, by default, even if you feel it was not your fault, you ARE at fault and liable, period. What are the odds this would all happen to me, can't say? But, adding up all what the truck cost, AS costs and costs of a litigious society we live in...not a chance in hell was I willing to take this chance any longer.

KJRitchie · 03-28-2016, 09:05 AM

I wonder if this payload sensor is in the Ram 2500 with no air suspension.

Kelvin

Bruce B · 03-28-2016, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

I wonder if this payload sensor is in the Ram 2500 with no air suspension.

Kelvin

All of the Ram trucks with air suspension have this feature.
They will even place the suspension in a "Safe" mode if you really overload it...
Bruce

dkottum · 03-28-2016, 09:42 AM

We don't have air suspension on our Ram 1500 but I asked about it. The dealer explained that if the load exceeds GAWR (not payload because payload is not a rating but the variable load carried by the truck) the air suspension will go into "safe" mode so the air pump will not continue to run and burn up.

The info is stored for purposes of maintenance; it's not a conspiracy.

Now wouldn't you think if they really were out to get you on this, the same sensor that puts the system in safe mode would have to illuminate a warning/advisory light if they wanted to make the accusation stick.

rostam · 03-28-2016, 10:05 AM

Plan-B, thanks for sharing this info.

Doug, Payload = GVWR - Curb weight. Curb weight is constant, so payload is indeed a rating (similar to GVWR). Per Plan-B's post, the computer displayed a "PAYLOAD EXCEEDED" message (not an axle rating exceeded message).

Lance M · 03-28-2016, 10:10 AM

Steel coil springs won't squeal on you.

This is something that is talked about at length on the RAM forums. From what I understand, you have to GROSSLY exceed the weight limit. Something like a pallet of bricks in the bed.

MIFC · 03-28-2016, 10:43 AM

Fascinating discussion on payload and the air suspension electronics, much more food for thought on selecting a TV for a heavy tongued trailer.

Back on the subject of the 6.4 Hemi, I just had a salesman who has been selling Ram trucks for 20 years tell me that while not towing, the 6.4 gets about the same mileage as the Cummins. Anyone with real world mileage on the 6.4?

Not sure if this claim is true or based on the fact he has plenty of 6.4s on the lot right now and zero 6.7s other than a completely stripped Tradesman.

BoldAdventure · 03-28-2016, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIFC

Fascinating discussion on payload and the air suspension electronics, much more food for thought on selecting a TV for a heavy tongued trailer.

Back on the subject of the 6.4 Hemi, I just had a salesman who has been selling Ram trucks for 20 years tell me that while not towing, the 6.4 gets about the same mileage as the Cummins. Anyone with real world mileage on the 6.4?

Not sure if this claim is true or based on the fact he has plenty of 6.4s on the lot right now and zero 6.7s other than a completely stripped Tradesman.

I know most of us don't trust the EVIC and even if off 10-15%, it ain't bad.

And I have 4.10's although I wish Ram had stuck with the 4.56 gears that are in the older Power Wagons.

The ECO mode comes on a lot if you drive it right, and you can setup an eco display that shows you how you are doing in the fancy menus. I'm starting to like the upgrades in this truck more and more. Some cool features.

I haven't towed far enough or long enough to get a real sense of towing MPG's.

The thing about the Cummins and MPG is that you need to own it for at least 4-5 yrs for all the additional costs to be offset by the fuel savings. Initial cost for the diesel plus additional maintenance costs.