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Old 03-10-2006, 09:03 AM   #1
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GM truck antilock brake malfunction

GM has a problem with the anitlock brake system on the 2000 -2002 trucks and they have issued a recall in 20 states. The problem is the wheel rotation sensors at low speed fail to show the wheel is rotating and the system thinks the wheel is skidding and relieves the braking pressure to that wheel. This decreases the ability to stop and increases stopping distances. The problem is due to corrosion and buildup on the sensors. My truck has this problem. When I took it to the local dealer, the service manager agknowledged the problem but said my VIN was not in the recall and GM would not pay to fix it. He wants $125 to fix it but I have heard of others being charged as much as $500.

The question is: How many of you (with 2000 to 2002 GM trucks) have the problem? Have you had the same problem with the service managers? I have heard some people pulling the fuse on the anitlock brake system temporarily until they can fix it. Where is the fuse and does it work? Has anybody tried to fix the problem themselves?
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Old 03-10-2006, 10:41 AM   #2
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dwightdi---I would visit another Dealer!!! He may be right hat GM won't pay for this repair. He should however have enough courtesy to call GM on your behalf and ask. I was a Service Mgr at a GM dealer for years as well as one in a Harly Davidson store and have done this many times. Often times if they are told you are a good service customer and a repeat, brand loyal purchaser of their product ,they will step up and take care of things that are long out of warranty,especially safty related items.---Pieman
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:33 AM   #3
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Recall clarification

Saw your note about the 2000-2002 'truck' recall. Does this include the truck on frame Suburban? I have a 2001 2500 Suburban HD. How would I know that the recall applies to my vehicle. We are about to take it on the road for a caravan and this is a concern to me given the AS, family and other loads that will be in and on this TV. I want it right - period.

To quote NASA - Failure is NOT an option!

Please advise with all additional info that you have. Thanks!

Axel
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:58 AM   #4
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VIN Ranges

Mike's right. The VIN numbers are the known range in which problems fall. I have seen cars with conditions that obviously qualify for a campaign but are not even remotely close to being on the recall sheet.
A call to GM customer service will always help move a problem along. I know it does for VW.
Even with GM's financial problems I've seen them spring for even big ticket items on the Buick side of our shop. A possible safety related item shouldn't go unanswered.
Good Luck, Tom.
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:05 PM   #5
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Exclamation

Just pulled this item up. Seems your not the only one having trouble.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...al_recall.html
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:12 PM   #6
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Where is SilverTwinkie?

Hello all -

Just called the dealership that services my TV - They said that my vehicle is not on any recall or repair list. Read the WSJ article posted here by someone (Thanks for that!) and as usual there is likely some footdragging going on at GM. Where is the GM guru, SilverTwinkie???

Will send him a PM asking him to comment if there is anything additional he knows of re: this issue.

Stay tuned!

Axel
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Old 03-10-2006, 03:46 PM   #7
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Hey, I just got your PM and saw this. I'm no expert, but I heard about this one, but didn't really get into it as my '04 wasn't even in the geographic recall universe.

After reading the WSJ info and several threads on GM truck forums and based on exp, it's not uncommon for VINs not included in the recall to demonstate the same problems. SilverToy, your truck, though it may or may not be on the VIN list, it is within the recall parameters. For example, my wife's Honda Accord was a 2001, Honda only claimed a recall on up to 2000 and her car clearly had the same transmission problem. Finally after two weeks of dealing with Honda, they agreed to replace the trans on her 2001, even though it was outside the recall parameters.

I am not sure how they determine what VINs have the issue and which don't, but if your truck has been showing signs of the antilock problem, the odds are you're gonna have to fight with GM to get them to cover any of it. The issue as I have read is that between 11 and approx 22mph, the antilock will kick in and reduce brake pressure. If you are in the rust belt, then clearly you have the potential of having this issue. What is odd to me is why they haven't extended this to all models. I wonder if GM found the problem and addressed it after 2002?

What ticks me off about the auto industry in particular is that the bean counters are the ones that dictate a recall. If it costs more in lawsuits and payouts then it does to fix the problem, they choose to take their chances and it's not just GM....Ford, Chrysler, Benz, all of them. It's a disgrace if you ask me.

Unrelated to this recall, my Impala SS does this. The Suburban so far doesn't, but it's only got 6700 miles on it right now and hasn't seen lots of snow or salt...some, but not a lot.
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Old 03-10-2006, 04:13 PM   #8
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mine is under recall, i have yet to take it in.

my understanding is that it is a corrosion problem. the high salt states are taken care of first.

wisconsin definately qualifies.

i'll let every one know what they find.....


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Old 03-10-2006, 04:26 PM   #9
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What we used to see, at least on the import side, was that the corrosion would take place between the steel of the bearing housing and the body of the sensor. This would squeeze the body of the sensor causing it to short the windings inside. This in turn distorts the wave form sent to the ABS module.
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Old 03-11-2006, 12:21 AM   #10
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Well, maybe I do need a fight!

Hello all -

SilverTwinkie - Thanks for chimeing in on this question. After reading your 'parameters' for the problem, I think that perhaps I do possibly have the issues stated in the recall as regards my TV.

Situation as follows:

#1 - Slowing from 50ish off a main road, going striaght with foot firmly on the brake, setting up for a 90degree right turn - the vehicle traverses a 2 or 3 inch 'bump' in the pavement and the ABS engages with a subsequent increase in brake distance - IMO - that should NOT be, and would not be without ABS and good normal competant pedal modulation.

#2 - Vehicle slows - foot firmly on the brake and going straight, from about 35ish. Crossing a ROUGH former cattle crossing, the ABS engages and again there is an longer than 'normal' braking distance - compared to non-ABS equipement/cars that I have driven.

Caveat - This is my first ABS equiped car. Have 1.1 million miles under my belt in all manor of cars and contraptions, but then this is "Perhaps normal?" in an ABS vehicle????? I just don't know. Appologies to ST as I PMed him the same above.

Am I going to go and ride herd on the dealership here, to get GM to do the right thing??? All opinions welcome!

Axel
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Old 03-11-2006, 08:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverToy
Hello all -

SilverTwinkie - Thanks for chimeing in on this question. After reading your 'parameters' for the problem, I think that perhaps I do possibly have the issues stated in the recall as regards my TV.

Situation as follows:

#1 - Slowing from 50ish off a main road, going striaght with foot firmly on the brake, setting up for a 90degree right turn - the vehicle traverses a 2 or 3 inch 'bump' in the pavement and the ABS engages with a subsequent increase in brake distance - IMO - that should NOT be, and would not be without ABS and good normal competant pedal modulation.

#2 - Vehicle slows - foot firmly on the brake and going straight, from about 35ish. Crossing a ROUGH former cattle crossing, the ABS engages and again there is an longer than 'normal' braking distance - compared to non-ABS equipement/cars that I have driven.

Caveat - This is my first ABS equiped car. Have 1.1 million miles under my belt in all manor of cars and contraptions, but then this is "Perhaps normal?" in an ABS vehicle????? I just don't know. Appologies to ST as I PMed him the same above.

Am I going to go and ride herd on the dealership here, to get GM to do the right thing??? All opinions welcome!

Axel
Concerning ----"riding herd on the dealership"----keep in mind the dealer did not build the vehicle nor is he responsible for any warranty or recalls that the manufacture doesn't authorize. He should out of courtesy call on your behalf and see if he can help. However courtesy works both ways. Unless you are a customer and have spent lots of money with them "riding herd "or demanding would get you escourted to the door where I worked. ---Pieman
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:44 AM   #12
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Here are some clips courtesy of thedieselforum...even though it's the dieselforum, they still use the same chassis. Also keep in mind these are not my posts, just converstations about the subject from others. I would encourage all to read up on the web for more details.....

"A buddy of mine is a tech at the local dealership and got me some info.

I'm not sure what the exact terminology is, but I don't think this is a recall where you get sent a letter. If you're having the issue, talk to a tech here and see if your truck is on GM's VIN list of what they think are affected vehicles.

Now, if you're not on that list, my pal told me to call GM customer service and tell them that you're having the exact same problem. If they give you static, he told me to ask the CS rep to speak to someone up the chain, then raise holy hell, etc. If GM CS agrees to fix the truck, you can go to the dealership with number in hand and they'll fix it.

This is only what I've been told. My truck is doing it like crazy and I have not had the time to go chase it down. The other issue is that my pal works at the GMC dealership and they aren't allowed to touch my Chev."



"My truck has this problem. Some times on dry road, at very low speed, like when you are creeping in traffic, it would feel like you slipped on ice just before stopping. The brakes just seem to quit for a short time (less than a second). One time I nearly rear ended the car in front of me because of this loss of braking. Basically, the ABS should never even come on at very low speeds. It is not required, and causes a brief loss of stopping power when you are just a few feet from the car in front of you. I can see how some fender benders can happen! It did not happen often, but one time I realized that it was the ABS. I think it is a ABS programming problem, but they change the sensor to cure the immediate problem. The real problem is the software in the ABS should disable it under some speed like 5 Mph. Since I guess they can't fix the programming, the sensor fix covers up the problem....for now.
I think we may hear more about this.. Just my opinion of course....."


"I was having the same problems as listed on this site about the abs system problems ... engaging at low speeds under 5 mph caused by corrision giving the sensor a false air gap reading causing abs system to engauge when it shouldnt . Caller the dealer and ask him about this so he said bring it in and he would ck it out , well before i went i ran or printed several things on here about recall and kept them in my pocket for a while till he started tell me what the problem was and how much it was going to cost to fix it , i dont think so!!!!!! i flipped these papers or copies out of my pocket and he read them and got the weirdest look on his face and really started back pedaling and studdering about how he was going to try to run this threw on recall , i said you bet you are i aint paying a dime as this is a recall issue , then he started telling me how he was doing me a favor and trying to make things right , it would have screwed me again if i hadnt called him on it so now i get 2 new asb sensors installed this coming week ( they had to order them ) . What started this whole mess with this dealer was when he put a new belt and a new battery in for 300 bucks ( cost 51.75 to just drop the battery in the truck ) and i just blew up on him , The friggin dealers rip people off so much it makes me sick , i love gm products but it nowonder the auto industery is in trouble world wide ... no one trusts anyone anymore"
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Old 03-11-2006, 08:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightdi
GM has a problem with the anitlock brake system on the 2000 -2002 trucks and they have issued a recall in 20 states. The problem is the wheel rotation sensors at low speed fail to show the wheel is rotating and the system thinks the wheel is skidding and relieves the braking pressure to that wheel. This decreases the ability to stop and increases stopping distances. The problem is due to corrosion and buildup on the sensors. My truck has this problem. When I took it to the local dealer, the service manager agknowledged the problem but said my VIN was not in the recall and GM would not pay to fix it. He wants $125 to fix it but I have heard of others being charged as much as $500.

The question is: How many of you (with 2000 to 2002 GM trucks) have the problem? Have you had the same problem with the service managers? I have heard some people pulling the fuse on the anitlock brake system temporarily until they can fix it. Where is the fuse and does it work? Has anybody tried to fix the problem themselves?
I have a '01 2500hd and have only received recall notices for those lousy tailgate cables. My wheel sensors are just fine and I have been careful about staying away from salt the best I can. I've also wondered just what happens after they clean up the sensor areas of corrosion? What keeps the corrosion from coming back? Is it just one of those "We'll handle it under warranty then you are out of luck" things? As long as mine is working properly then I think I will just leave well enough alone.
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Old 03-12-2006, 05:02 PM   #14
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Sorry, poor choice of words!

Pieman et al -

Sorry about my poor choice of words. When I wrote about 'riding herd' at the dealership I didn't mean to imply that they are the cause of the problem. Nor did I mean for it to sound like I would be unkind, unruly or impolite.

There are however times when places of business (car dealership service facilities included) can try to make issues out to be something that can't be helped, is outside their purview, and generally try to get out of doing the right thing. In this case, going in with MAX info and details is a very good thing. 99+% of people work extremely hard and are consiencious about their work - a few bad apples can really mess things up for everyone, in my experience.

So, sorry if you, Pieman, or anyone was upset by my choice of verbage.

Ciao

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Old 03-12-2006, 05:09 PM   #15
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So, do I qualify?? Or not?

Hello all -

ST - read your posts on this question. Did some reading about this problem on other Blogs but none address the 2 situations I mentioned in one of my previous post with my TV.

Is it your 'opinion' that what my TV is doing on occation, would or would not be addressed by the "fix" GM is doing on similar vehicles??? Is what I wrote about even a serious issue to be worried about? Now, I know that you aren't a 'service writer' at a dealership, but I am curious on your thoughts.

Thanks!

Axel
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Old 03-12-2006, 06:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverToy
Pieman et al -

Sorry about my poor choice of words. When I wrote about 'riding herd' at the dealership I didn't mean to imply that they are the cause of the problem. Nor did I mean for it to sound like I would be unkind, unruly or impolite.

There are however times when places of business (car dealership service facilities included) can try to make issues out to be something that can't be helped, is outside their purview, and generally try to get out of doing the right thing. In this case, going in with MAX info and details is a very good thing. 99+% of people work extremely hard and are consiencious about their work - a few bad apples can really mess things up for everyone, in my experience.

So, sorry if you, Pieman, or anyone was upset by my choice of verbage.

Ciao

Axel
Silvertoy--No apology needed here. This is one reason I have always felt it was good to have a good relationship with a reputable dealer. You can do this by doing a little busness with them, getting to know them ,etc. From my experience there are dealers that handle things like this in one of two ways. One by their actions or sometimes words will say," you've never spent a dime with us. Why should I go out of my way to help you.?'' The other, and this by the way, is how I treated customers. If I go the extra mile I have a chance of making you my customer. And if I was able to help I was never shy in reminding that person that I hoped they would remember this and do some busness with us. It would be nice if we all treated people as we liked to be treated but that's not the real world. Just as many folks think all dealers are rip offs because of an experience they've had, some dealers feel that way about customers when they get railed on day after day for things they have no control of. ----Pieman
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Old 03-12-2006, 08:08 PM   #17
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I am not sure what you've described is the issue that is being recalled. My car does the same thing your Burb is doing, though my Burb doesn't do it...yet.
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Old 03-12-2006, 11:26 PM   #18
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And you Eric are going to just go ahead and live with it - ergo, not a problem that requires your time and effort at this stage. Do I have that about right?? Time will tell,and possibly alter things that will possibly require this to become a high priority issue - it is not that now.

Thumbs up or Thumbs down on my reading and assessing skills.

Trying to be definative for my own edification.

Thanks for the patience in dealing with me about this.

Axel
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Old 03-12-2006, 11:44 PM   #19
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In my case, I think it's the design of the ABS that makes this possible. On the Impala, the ABS system shares lines...each wheel doesn't have a dedicated ABS brake line from what I understand (even though each wheel has a ABS sensor), so if one wheel in the front does loose traction, one or more additional wheels will be effected in the manner in which you describe. The SS and Caprice are my first ABS cars and from what I read on the car forums, it was just a cheap ABS system GM threw in. Not sure my '04 Burb has the same ABS, I just know it hasn't done what the Impala or Caprice (both '96s) do, which is what your seeing with your truck. Though the Caprice has 86k on it, the Impala only has 4800 and it did what you describe since day one. Though I will admit that the Caprice that has more miles does exhibit the symptoms more often as it is the daily driver (as you can tell I don't drive the SS all that much).

So, yes, I am concerned about it, yes I could see it impact me in certain situations, yes I have considered taking out the relay and/or fuse that makes the ABS system in those cars work, but haven't since as bad as the ABS is in my two cars, it has saved my behind more than once by allowing me to still steer and the number of times the issue happens, in my case is small. In my case, I see it as a design flaw that can't really be corrected due to the nature of the system. I don't know if you have the same on I do in the 96s.

I can only add that I have towed with the Caprice for thousands of miles with the issue you describe. Even with the known limitation, I didn't run into any issues. That's not to say I couldn't and why some folks that have the Impala/Caprice (94/94/96) that I know have actually turned off the ABS by yanking the relay and fuse for it.

Having properly maint trailer brakes I think could also help lessen any impact of the issue. Is it the safest? Not by a long shot, but as I said earlier, GM, Ford, Dodge and all the rest file a recall only of they are forced to and/or it is cheaper to fix than deal with possible litigation.

On last thing I have to say though, is that I don't drive your truck and am only going by what I've read. If you feel a saftey issue is present in your vehicle, I would suggest every day of the week and twice on Sunday that you take it to a qualified, trustworthly repair center for a checkup to make sure.
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Old 03-13-2006, 01:45 PM   #20
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GM good to me.

I complained about my gm brakes shortly after my 2000 truck was new. I had a problem shortly after my warrenty was up. I had a sensor on rt. front repaced 350 dollars. I traded truck on new 2006 duramax. got a recall notice on old truck. I sent GM the bill and they issued me a check for the full amount.
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