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Old 04-09-2024, 05:27 PM   #1
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Globetrotter 23FBTwin (2021 or 2022) vs a new or similar 25 FBTwin

We're considering one of these and have been reading quite a bit.

Seems a pretty common scenario.

Our tow vehicle is a 1/2 ton, 2024 Toyota Tundra. I was curious what the ACTUAL weight of the truck was and stopped at a Cat scale to see.

Front axle 3700lbs.
Rear Axle 2960lbs.
Gross weight 6660lbs.

GVWR for my truck is 7650lbs.

So, I assume my real available payload is 7650 - 6660 = 990lbs?

This was with my wife and I (all that will be traveling) and a 50lb. bag of fertilizer in the back seat. (seemingly to simulate our dog). Also added was a tonneau cover over the truck bed.

The max payload from the trucks door jamb is 1283lbs. So, after subtracting our weights, the 50lb. bag of fertilizer in the back seat and the estimated weight of the tonneau cover from the GVWR, it seems the actual 990lbs. of available payload (as shown above) is a bit more than listed.

The trailer will be used a couple times a year for maybe 1-2 weeks each. We have talked about maybe a trip cross country as well.

I've been reading about ACTUAL tongue weights of these trailers and with what appears to be 990lbs. of available payload it would seem to be really pushing it to consider the 25. I haven't even taken into account the weight of a weight distribution hitch and anything else that could end up in the truck's bed.

Is it reasonable to think we could use the trailer GVWR to take anything we would bring along and not use the truck for cargo?

Looks to me like the 25 might be a bad idea?
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Old 04-09-2024, 07:01 PM   #2
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I am pretty sure the Tundra would do a great job towing a 25FB, but yes, you will likely be pushing against your payload limit. For those who strictly adhere to the door jamb payload number, it could be a problem. However, in my view, if a tow vehicle does a remarkable job towing, it does not suddenly become inappropriate because it is occasionally a few hundred pounds over the payload number. There are many other factors in play.
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Old 04-09-2024, 07:30 PM   #3
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There's a big difference between actual tongue weight between the 23' an 25'. The 25 will be closer to 1100 lbs vs 750 on the 23' Globetrotter.

One other number to check on your Tundra is the GAWR on the rear axle. We had a 1/2 ton truck that had a rear GAWR of 4100 lbs. We found we were 100 lbs over the GAWR with our 27' GT on the CAT scales (25's have a slightly heavier tongue weight).

You'd be fine with the 23' GT but pushing the limits on the 25'. That said, people make it work all the time. Just depends on your tolerance for pushing the max (payload anxiety).

One more point, a 23' with twin beds is the Goldilocks of small trailers. You gain the space between the beds for changing vs. having to do so in the bathroom or the hallway. If AS made the 23 twin when we had ours we might have kept it!
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Old 04-10-2024, 05:53 AM   #4
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Thanks for the responses!

My wife loves the rear bathroom on the 23. The six inches of extra width in the 25 seems like it makes a noticeable difference. The rear wrap around windows are also a nice feature on the 25.

My truck doesn't have tow mirrors on it and there is no real option for upgrading to factory tow mirrors. If I needed them, I would have to use the add-on mirrors. I'm wondering with the narrower width of the 23 foot if the lack of tow mirrors would be less of an issue. My Tundra has many cameras around the truck to help.

I talked to a service guy at a local airstream dealer and he seemed puzzled that I was even concerned. Said he sets up 25 and 27 foot models on 1/2 ton trucks all the time. He was not a salesman. He seemed genuine and not just interested in whether I bought or not. I sort of took that with a grain of salt as the numbers (at least for my truck) and what I've read here, did not seem to back that up.

I emailed Philip from Canam Ontario and his comment was:

"with a properly set up weight distribution hitch, I would only be carrying 2/3 of the trailer's tongue weight with the tow vehicle. Not 1000 lbs." His feeling was that my truck would be more than adequate for a 25 or even longer airstream. Wish they were closer, I would likely pursue his expertise.

If this is true, why are so many reporting 1000 lb.+ tongue weights?
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Old 04-10-2024, 06:35 AM   #5
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I think the 23’ is also a couple inches lower height inside too. That’s why I would go 25’.
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Old 04-10-2024, 07:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickoo View Post
We're considering one of these and have been reading quite a bit.



Looks to me like the 25 might be a bad idea?

This initial reaction is the correct one, regardless of anyone who posts here about how long someone has been ' doing it ' . A 25+ Footer needs a 2500 truck frame.
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Old 04-10-2024, 09:46 AM   #7
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I'm an admitted Can-Am fan boy and would trust that Phillip knows what he's talking about. We had our Audi Q7 set up by Can-Am and if you can make the pilgrimage after getting your trailer and have them do the hitch work, I'd highly recommend doing that.

As for your trailer decision, we have a 2023 Globetrotter 25FBT. My wife hated the rear bathroom in the 23' models, just because it removes the view and puts the dining table on the side. We love the wrap around rear seating area and the front twin beds. The 25' feels much more open, especially with the twin beds. If you can swing a new 2024 you will get the new pedestal table as well. The bigger camper might be more than you need now, but for us it's much more future proof and great on long trips.

The Globetrotter was a stretch for us but we also like the upgraded features and trim which I think is well worth the extra cost. Also discounts of 15-20% off list are common these days.
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Old 04-10-2024, 09:58 AM   #8
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Ditto

Ditto-

Tundra power train will work however the rear suspension will have to be assisted like my worn out left knee. Sumo springs will help and Bilstein new shocks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffmc306 View Post
There's a big difference between actual tongue weight between the 23' an 25'. The 25 will be closer to 1100 lbs vs 750 on the 23' Globetrotter.

One other number to check on your Tundra is the GAWR on the rear axle. We had a 1/2 ton truck that had a rear GAWR of 4100 lbs. We found we were 100 lbs over the GAWR with our 27' GT on the CAT scales (25's have a slightly heavier tongue weight).

You'd be fine with the 23' GT but pushing the limits on the 25'. That said, people make it work all the time. Just depends on your tolerance for pushing the max (payload anxiety).

One more point, a 23' with twin beds is the Goldilocks of small trailers. You gain the space between the beds for changing vs. having to do so in the bathroom or the hallway. If AS made the 23 twin when we had ours we might have kept it!
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Old 04-10-2024, 04:48 PM   #9
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I had originally ordered a 22FB and switched my order to a 25FB…best decision ever! I highly recommend the 25FB. It is versatile, fits anywhere yet is big enough to make extended trips very comfortable. It also has larger tanks. The 23FB does have nice bathroom, but the unfortunate part is that it is also from the bathroom that you get the best view. The wrap around windows and lounge area in the 25FB is what sold us on that model. It is a very nice open area where to spend time.

It is absolutely false that you need a HD truck to pull a 25FB. I and thousand of other owners safely tow our 25FBs with SUVs and half-ton trucks. Properly set-up, your Tundra will do just fine. If you want a 25FB, do not let misplaced payload anxiety deter you from acquiring it. I am sure many people on this forum who tow their 25FBs with Tundras can give you tips on how to optimize its towing capabilities.

Finally, there are some good add-on towing mirrors out there.

Good luck!
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Old 04-11-2024, 04:03 PM   #10
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It’s true…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickoo View Post
Thanks for the responses!

If this is true, why are so many reporting 1000 lb.+ tongue weights?
It’s no joke; tongue weights are in the 1000 lbs. range. Our 27’ weighs 1100 lbs plus the 27’s are less than 25’s.

One other comment - it’s disputable that transferring tongue weight with a WD hitch can be subtracted from the payload limit. From what I’ve read, it doesn’t work that way.
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Old 04-14-2024, 02:55 PM   #11
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I have ‘24 1794 with the Max and ‘21 AS 25FBQ and tongue weight is about 1k fully loaded. You’ll pick up some payload from a WDH of about 15-20% of hitch weight as it will move the weight to the trailer axles. Payload is tight, but it’s just 2 of us and I don’t want anything bigger than 1/2 ton for day to day driving. Just have to watch what you bring with you and where you pack it. Towing is great but agree with others you need to firm up the rear end suspension-I added bags. Personal choice but I don’t like the rear bath option in the rear and likely move to the ‘27 once we go closer to full time down the road.
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Old 04-15-2024, 07:46 AM   #12
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The 25' FB is the perfect size and perfect layout. It's big enough to be comfortable, but small enough to be versatile and tow well. That said, it was just too large for my tow vehicle with a 6k tow rating and 11k GCVWR. My first Airstream, in 1987 was a '70 Safari Special single axle. We decided that as this will probably be our last trailer, we could do a 23' again. It's a '20 GT 23FBQ. While we like the floorplan of the 25FB better, there's nothing about the 23FBQ that we think is a compromise.

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Old 04-15-2024, 10:35 AM   #13
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It’s a shame the payload on your Tundra is so skimpy. Our mid-size (smaller than 1/2 ton) truck has a 1500 lbs payload rating, and 600 lbs tongue load (without weight distribution.)

Weight distribution does not alter tongue load or payload ratings. Don’t be swayed by claims that WD allows you a higher tongue load than the vehicle rating, or buys you more payload.

Even with the 23’s 8’ width, you will probably need accessory tow mirrors. Not a big deal - - they are very helpful, easy to mount, and not very expensive.

The 8’ wide 23 is 50-state legal for towing without permits. If you plan to spend any time exploring in NY or NJ (Adirondacks?), you will need an oversize permit for the 8.5’ wide 25 and even then you will be restricted to the permitted route.

Anecdotally, I just completed a 1500 mile trip towing our 8’ wide Flying Cloud 19. Along with me was a family member who owns a GT 25 FBT. The ease of towing the lighter narrower trailer (plus the maneuverability of the single axle) was transformational compared to towing the 25. Relaxing, easy, simple.

Layouts are always a compromise to a certain extent. My wife has pointed out how nice it would be to have the toilet/shower at the rear (or front) of the trailer right where you come in through the door. She feels it makes a great “mud room” for wet/dirty clothes and also limits the trapsing through the cabin to get to the bathroom.

My vote is stick with the narrower/lighter 23 as it is a better fit to your tow vehicle and offers the advantage of lower frontal profile, and 50-state towing without permits. Smaller is easier and easy is more relaxing.
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Old 04-15-2024, 06:00 PM   #14
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The 23' is a gateway drug, be careful ! We owned a 23' FC FBQ for a few years & it was great, best bathroom of all AS, 2 adults & the dog no problem I liked the size & the cost of it. But the wife became addicted and we now own a 25' FBT & I'm a willing enabler so there is really no turning back. What's cool if buying used we did pretty good on the selling the 23', used it for 2+ years and sold it for 1.5K less than we paid for it.

Have fun
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Old 04-16-2024, 05:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeCamper View Post
It’s a shame the payload on your Tundra is so skimpy. Our mid-size (smaller than 1/2 ton) truck has a 1500 lbs payload rating, and 600 lbs tongue load (without weight distribution.)

The Tundra Capstone is pretty loaded. To the detriment of available payload unfortunately.

Weight distribution does not alter tongue load or payload ratings. Don’t be swayed by claims that WD allows you a higher tongue load than the vehicle rating, or buys you more payload.

My understanding is that a WDH doesn't increase payload. Just increases available payload due to it's ability to transfer weight back to the trailer and off the truck.

Even with the 23’s 8’ width, you will probably need accessory tow mirrors. Not a big deal - - they are very helpful, easy to mount, and not very expensive.

I'm more concerned about them chaffing or damaging the trucks mirrors. Any suggestion on specific mirrors that won't?


The 8’ wide 23 is 50-state legal for towing without permits. If you plan to spend any time exploring in NY or NJ (Adirondacks?), you will need an oversize permit for the 8.5’ wide 25 and even then you will be restricted to the permitted route.

Interesting. I've never heard that. Is it regularly enforced?

Anecdotally, I just completed a 1500 mile trip towing our 8’ wide Flying Cloud 19. Along with me was a family member who owns a GT 25 FBT. The ease of towing the lighter narrower trailer (plus the maneuverability of the single axle) was transformational compared to towing the 25. Relaxing, easy, simple.

Layouts are always a compromise to a certain extent. My wife has pointed out how nice it would be to have the toilet/shower at the rear (or front) of the trailer right where you come in through the door. She feels it makes a great “mud room” for wet/dirty clothes and also limits the trapsing through the cabin to get to the bathroom.

My vote is stick with the narrower/lighter 23 as it is a better fit to your tow vehicle and offers the advantage of lower frontal profile, and 50-state towing without permits. Smaller is easier and easy is more relaxing.
Thanks for your thoughts!
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Old 04-16-2024, 06:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluminium Falcon View Post
I am pretty sure the Tundra would do a great job towing a 25FB, but yes, you will likely be pushing against your payload limit. For those who strictly adhere to the door jamb payload number, it could be a problem. However, in my view, if a tow vehicle does a remarkable job towing, it does not suddenly become inappropriate because it is occasionally a few hundred pounds over the payload number. There are many other factors in play.
This ^^. We had a 23FB. It was fine for shorter trips in good weather. We pulled it with our 2012 Tundra. No issues. Retirement brought on longer trips. So, we switched to a 25FB twin Globetrotter. It seems like twice the trailer. Definitely a lot more tongue weight for the Tundra. So I modified shocks, suspension, and tires. The Tundra is handling it very well. 30,000+ miles all over the US. Get a good weight distribution hitch, have it set up properly, pack light. The Tundra is great. The 25 is perfect for us, for longer trips (4 weeks)
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Old 04-16-2024, 07:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Thanks for your thoughts!
The WD hitch will typically only reduce tongue weight borne by the TV minimally. Most of the weight transfer is to the front axle of the TV. Some is to the axle(s) of the trailer, but not nearly as much, and much of that is offset by the added weight of the WD hitch components in the receiver. In other words, don’t think of WD as a way to significantly gain back payload. It’s more for improving towing dynamics.

NY and NJ have an 8’ max trailer width limit. They do permit through-transiting on certain interstates at up to 8.5’. But if you plan to get off those interstates to explore you will need oversize permitting. Being from Massachusetts, this could be a major hassle for you. An un-permitted over-sized trailer can be impounded.

I am using a set of towing mirrors purchased at Advanced Auto Parts, for reasonable price. I needed some in a hurry and did not have much time to research, so there may be better options available. But these worked well enough and I am satisfied:
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Old 04-16-2024, 08:38 AM   #18
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ok, now I'm curious...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeCamper View Post
.....
The 8’ wide 23 is 50-state legal for towing without permits. If you plan to spend any time exploring in NY or NJ (Adirondacks?), you will need an oversize permit for the 8.5’ wide 25 and even then you will be restricted to the permitted route.
....
Having just been in that nek-o-da woods last fall, I'm curious where I can read more on this limit. 102" / 8'6" is the limit for vehicle widths throughout the US and I couldn't find anything related to NY/Adirondacks with different limits, so a pointer would be great.
Thanks.
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Old 04-16-2024, 09:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Having just been in that nek-o-da woods last fall, I'm curious where I can read more on this limit. 102" / 8'6" is the limit for vehicle widths throughout the US and I couldn't find anything related to NY/Adirondacks with different limits, so a pointer would be great.
Thanks.
NY and NJ have lower width limits than the rest of the US. NC has a wider limit (9’) without permits.

This is the reason why so many trailerable boats have a max beam of 8’. It’s not because 8’ magically offers the best performance or design. It’s to keep them legal for trailering in all 50 states without permits.

As mentioned, there are exceptions to permit 8.5’ vehicles to through-transit these states. But off of those designated routes, the 8’ width limit applies:

https://www.dot.ny.gov/nypermits/rep...ction-385.html
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Old 04-16-2024, 09:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteePlus View Post
Having just been in that nek-o-da woods last fall, I'm curious where I can read more on this limit. 102" / 8'6" is the limit for vehicle widths throughout the US and I couldn't find anything related to NY/Adirondacks with different limits, so a pointer would be great.
Thanks.
I did a double take on that too. And it's true (96" in KY, MD, NH, NJ also). According to this and this. Every other state is 102" or greater. Is this mostly ignored in NY, etc.? Is a permit easy to get? I'd think the tourist industry would be up in arms.

NEW YORK
Maximum RV width 96 in. (102 in. on qualifying or access highways)
Maximum motorhome length 45 ft.
Maximum trailer length 48 ft.
Maximum RV height 13.5 ft.
Maximum combined length for two-vehicle combination 65 ft.
Riding is allowed in truck campers or fifth-wheel trailers. RVs are not allowed in the carpool lane unless posted. Bottled gas is prohibited in tunnels, the lower levels of the George Washington Bridge and the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, and on I-95 through Manhattan.
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