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Old 07-17-2021, 07:39 AM   #101
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Ford managed to kill the f150 diesel. Not the (5 percent nitch) marketplace. If you want one you better get it now. Dennis one of our RV transport owners loves / the economy of his. 30 mpg capability in a full size 4wd drive truck is great. As is the towing mileage range etc for new “dry” AS transport.

GM who’s bailout installed CEO wants the ICE dead is still selling their 3.0 diesel without marketing /advertising support or sales training. As is Ram. (Shh it’s nearly a secret but you can still buy them) Both with new / heavily revised engines with new emissions systems to contend with EPA requirements.

My eldest son also has an OTR over the road business that benefits from the half ton diesel. He just ordered a 2022 1/2 ton diesel Ram. To say the 1/2 ton diesel is dead is false. Only Ford is killing off it’s practically still born 1/2 ton diesel. BTW my 2014 Ram 1/2 ton diesel truck just turned 800k miles albeit not with the original engine. I just want the market place to determine the future of the 1/2 ton diesel and not regulation.
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Old 07-17-2021, 08:04 AM   #102
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The RAM 1/2 ton diesel suffers from lack of payload. My neighbor had a high option one and his payload was less than 1000 pounds. I haven't seen a Ford 1/2 ton diesel so anyone know the payload door sticker stats?
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Old 07-17-2021, 08:33 AM   #103
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Ford managed to kill the f150 diesel. Not the (5 percent niche) marketplace. If you want one you better get it now. Dennis, one of our RV transport owners loves the economy of his. 30 mpg capability in a full size 4wd drive truck is great. As is the towing mileage range etc for new “dry” AS transport.

GM who’s bailout installed CEO wants the ICE dead is still selling their 3.0 diesel without marketing /advertising support or sales training. As is Ram. (Shh it’s nearly a secret but you can still buy them) Both with new / heavily revised engines with new emissions systems to contend with EPA requirements.

My eldest son also has an OTR over the road business that benefits from the half ton diesel. He just ordered a 2022 1/2 ton diesel Ram. To say the 1/2 ton diesel is dead is false. Only Ford is killing off it’s practically still born 1/2 ton diesel. BTW my 2014 Ram 1/2 ton diesel truck just turned 800k miles albeit not with the original engine. I just want the market place to determine the future of the 1/2 ton diesel and not regulation.
All of the Big 3 CEOs know that ICE engines are entering the sunset stage. It will take some time, but that is why they have all announced their longer term plans. It doesn’t matter what they want individually.

Europe was home to much of the light duty diesel design and manufacturing (including the Ecodiesel) Euro manufacturers have announced or implemented their withdrawal from that light duty diesel market. Many of them had trouble with the Euro 6 emissions standard (2014 to present). Euro 7 is about to be announced, later this year. It will be the last emissions standard published before zero tailpipe emissions. Not only is it proposed to be many times stricter on CO and NOx limits, but it is proposed to eliminate the diesel waiver (a laxer standard for Diesel engines) and thus be fuel type neutral. That will effectively end light duty diesel manufacturing in those markets by 2025 or so.

It doesn’t matter that Euro 7 won’t apply in North America. The US isn’t a large enough market to support development and production of a light duty diesel by itself. Even RAM just announced their shift to BEV, in all platforms.

This all won’t impact existing fleets, it is for new sales.
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:10 AM   #104
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Real world examples are good.

Going up a mountain isn't so much of an issue (unless you never come down) as you will recover charge on the descent, as long as the battery has room to accept that charge. We come through the Rockies between Vancouver and Calgary (not towing) and end up with more charge at the bottom of descents than at the top.

I don't know the roads from Salt Lake City to Jackson, but my Plugshare app does. It showed me over 100 charge stations along the route it selected. Some parallel routes may not have the same access to charging stations. I just focused on the Superchargers, and I saw 8, counting Salt Lake City and Jackson. Just going from one to another, there was no single leg over 92 miles. There are Superchargers in Evanston, Tremonton, Pocatello, and Idaho Falls, for example. When heavier duty towing vehicles are out, they should have more range than today, but Can Am reported that they can do that route with 30% battery reserve, towing an AS27 with a Model 3, which is not a large vehicle, today. I think you may want to reconsider your own lifetime estimate, and we certainly hope you are around longer than today.

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I did see some charge stations along the rout from Salt Lake to Jackson I mentioned, however, they are at private campgrounds along the way...I typically avoid going thru big cities like Salt Lake and look for the fastest rout with least traffic. Question: can anyone just stop and charge their cars at a KOA or private campground? Rerouting to larger cities to accommodate EV charge stations is not desirable for many of us, and would add mileage/time to the trip in many cases. Difficult enough to find good campgrounds now days without adding a charge station to my route, unless I was staying at that campground...IMHO...not gonna happen for us for quite a while, if ever.
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:13 AM   #105
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The F-150 diesel, while not identical to the Jaguar/Land Rover & PSA (now Stellantis), was a sibling child of the same "Lion" parents. You can infer that much of the development and certification costs are shared. So ... some complicating factors are

1) Peugeot & Citroen merged into PSA, that recently merged with FCA to form Stellantis. Stellantis has no incentive to help develop a competitor to the VM Motori V-6. That's speculation on my part, but stands to reason.
2) JLR (Jaguar/Land Rover) is also phasing out diesel power. This wiould leave Ford on its own.
3) Brexit. The F150 Powerstroke is made in the UK, IIRC. Brexit is a huge complication on supply chain uncertainty. Add uncertainty to lower overall volume for components (higher cost), and no partners for ongoing development ... It seems obvious in hindsight.

As for Mary Barra, she became CEO in 2014. The CEOs in the period of 2007 - 2014 were Wagoner, Henderson, Whitacre, and Akerson. It's simpler to think of it in pure black and white, but she's actually an engineer while the string of telephone sanitizers and hairdressers that preceded her - and brought the world things like the Aztec - were not, and did not seem to "get" cars. Cadillac used that same cheapo, boingy turn-signal stalk/cruise lever as a Cavalier. Yeah it worked fine, it felt like a 10 cent part on a 40k car. Because it was. That sort of thing, we could go on, but there's no point. That's the kind of thinking that tanked GM by 08.

It was like watching vegans pretend they're running a steakhouse.

Barra is at least competent and seems to "get" cars & trucks - something you wouldn't say about any of her predecessors since the 60's.That Lutz didn't throttle a couple of them is astonishing.



By 2013 GM was pretty much out of the red tape phase. I *think* the only one directly installed by the feds was Fritz Henderson, and _maybe_ Whitacre.
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Old 07-22-2021, 01:29 PM   #106
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2018 F150 3.0 Powerstroke towing 2017 International 23FB

Mine works great! 3400 miles this summer from Central Texas to Durango, Grand Canyon, and SoCal then back. Averaged 14.8 mpg towing @ 65-70mph (I hate to admit but even faster at times). Passed many other trucks towing travel trailers along the way...especially while climbing the mountain passes in CO, Flagstaff, and CA.

Did the same trip while towing with a 2019 Ram 1500 LoneStar 4 x 4 5.7l Hemi last year (11.7 mpg @ 62 mph MAX) and was unable to maintain even 65 mph. In fact, the Power Stroke gained speed on many of the same climbs that the Hemi struggled just to maintain speed. In the Hemi, we nearly ALWAYS used the truck lane due to our reduced speed while climbing. With the Powerstroke, we NEVER entered the truck lane - not once - as our speed was consistently faster than most other vehicles towing travel trailers.

I'm not an engineer (or even very smart) but I know the positive difference that the Powerstroke diesel has made towing the 23FB. I also appreciate that I get 25.5 mpg combined without the trailer attached - and I'm rarely in Normal driving Mode as I prefer Sport Mode. With the Hemi, I was averaging 17 mpg. combined.

As far as Ford discontinuing the 3.0 Power Stroke, I'm glad I have mine and I hope to use it many more years.
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Old 07-22-2021, 05:17 PM   #107
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Mine works great! 3400 miles this summer from Central Texas to Durango, Grand Canyon, and SoCal then back. Averaged 14.8 mpg towing @ 65-70mph (I hate to admit but even faster at times). Passed many other trucks towing travel trailers along the way...especially while climbing the mountain passes in CO, Flagstaff, and CA.

Did the same trip while towing with a 2019 Ram 1500 LoneStar 4 x 4 5.7l Hemi last year (11.7 mpg @ 62 mph MAX) and was unable to maintain even 65 mph. In fact, the Power Stroke gained speed on many of the same climbs that the Hemi struggled just to maintain speed. In the Hemi, we nearly ALWAYS used the truck lane due to our reduced speed while climbing. With the Powerstroke, we NEVER entered the truck lane - not once - as our speed was consistently faster than most other vehicles towing travel trailers.

I'm not an engineer (or even very smart) but I know the positive difference that the Powerstroke diesel has made towing the 23FB. I also appreciate that I get 25.5 mpg combined without the trailer attached - and I'm rarely in Normal driving Mode as I prefer Sport Mode. With the Hemi, I was averaging 17 mpg. combined.

As far as Ford discontinuing the 3.0 Power Stroke, I'm glad I have mine and I hope to use it many more years.
Awesome that you're making it work for your use and more importantly that you're enjoying it. Diesels have always had a solid efficiency advantage and your numbers show it.

Performance is a different story.

Regarding the 2019 Ram 1500 5.7L - there's just no way it's down on power unless you're not using the tool correctly. If you're trying to drive torque, and not using its full RPM powerband, I would expect the performance you're describing.

Numbers don't lie. They don't care if HP is produced by steam technology, gas, diesel, electric, or actual horses. The Ram 5.7L simply outclasses the Ford 3.0 Power Stroke, 395HP to 250HP respectively. If you weren't able to maintain speed or pass, there's something wrong with the RAM or it wasn't being used effectively.

Professional drivers have shown the 5.7L "flew" up the mountain on the TFL Ike gauntlet test, with a time of 7:44 second. If you refer back to my post #53, the F150 Diesel on the same test was one of only few ever in their test not being able to maintain speed, scoring a 9:40 second run. Both towing 9k lbs.

Results consistent and expected relative to HP numbers.

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Old 07-22-2021, 07:04 PM   #108
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I never could understand the 3.0 diesel when Ford had the 3.5 ecoboost. And now with the 3.5 hybrid it really doesn’t make sense. So I can see why they eliminated it. I’m not opposed to a 1/2 ton with a diesel power plant. But until they can get the horsepower closer to 300hp it is a no go for me. I read an interesting article that stated the ecoboost is kind of like a gas diesel. It has flatter torque horsepower curve like a diesel.

Here is the link:

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...-ar169447.html

I’ll keep my 2020 Ecoboost for quite some time. Maybe by that time they will have the F150 lightning figured out. Right now I don’t see it for towing. The verdict is still out on the F150 hybrid. If it proves itself to be a reliable power plant then I could see that as my next pickup.

But if Duramax can get their diesel to 290 to 300 hp then I might go that direction.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:35 PM   #109
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Talking If the numbers say I'm wrong then I guess I must be

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Awesome that you're making it work for your use and more importantly that you're enjoying it. Diesels have always had a solid efficiency advantage and your numbers show it.

Performance is a different story.

Regarding the 2019 Ram 1500 5.7L - there's just no way it's down on power unless you're not using the tool correctly. If you're trying to drive torque, and not using its full RPM powerband, I would expect the performance you're describing.

Numbers don't lie. They don't care if HP is produced by steam technology, gas, diesel, electric, or actual horses. The Ram 5.7L simply outclasses the Ford 3.0 Power Stroke, 395HP to 250HP respectively. If you weren't able to maintain speed or pass, there's something wrong with the RAM or it wasn't being used effectively.

Professional drivers have shown the 5.7L "flew" up the mountain on the TFL Ike gauntlet test, with a time of 7:44 second. If you refer back to my post #53, the F150 Diesel on the same test was one of only few ever in their test not being able to maintain speed, scoring a 9:40 second run. Both towing 9k lbs.

Results consistent and expected relative to HP numbers.

Photo taken during same trip last year. Trust me - I drove both trucks on the same trip pulling the same trailer. Again, I'm no engineer but I know which one performed better for me. Oh, and yes, I did pass many Hemi's pulling trailers during this trip.

That being said, I must have not have remembered correctly since the numbers say my experience could not have possibly happened as I recalled

Seriously though, It could be that since my loaded trailer is less than 6K lbs with a posted hitch weight of under 500 lbs (more like 700 I think). Perhaps I hit a sweet spot in the towing capacity of the Powerstroke versus the Hemi? My experience tells me that there was no comparison. In fact, DW insisted that she would not take that trip again at 62 mph avg (like we did with the Hemi). This year, DW was very happy with our average speed. If Mama's happy....
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:43 PM   #110
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Averaged 14.8 mpg towing @ 65-70mph (I hate to admit but even faster at times). Passed many other trucks towing travel trailers along the way...especially while climbing the mountain passes in CO, Flagstaff, and CA.
You would have passed me. I set the cruise control on 62 mph. I have found that increasing my speed from 60ish to 70ish (a 16%ish increase) decreases my fuel economy by 33%ish. I am not willing to lose 1/3 of my mpg.
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Old 07-23-2021, 07:32 AM   #111
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You would have passed me. I set the cruise control on 62 mph. I have found that increasing my speed from 60ish to 70ish (a 16%ish increase) decreases my fuel economy by 33%ish. I am not willing to lose 1/3 of my mpg.
Yep. That was me last year. I really did not mind at the time as I knew the fuel economy benefits, but DW was not having it...at all!

Also, with a 26 gallon tank in the Ram my towing mileage range was around 300 miles, so unless I remembered to fill up before crossing some of the long stretches with no service, it was sphincter cramp time

This year - also with a 26 gallon tank, my range is closer to 400 towing at a speed of easily 10 mph faster.
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Old 07-23-2021, 07:38 AM   #112
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"The diesel is postured as the efficiency option. If power and capacities are priorities, the gasser varients are going to be the ticket. Hopefully the diesel delivers on the towing experience for those that want it, because yet again, the diesel is not the one that will be winning races to the top of the hill. No mention of a diesel brake option yet."

Could not agree more with pteck's original post - (last paragraph above).

The diesel has been great for my towing needs - and it fits in the garage
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Old 07-23-2021, 09:24 AM   #113
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The Powerstroke's going to win the efficiency race every time.

Not sure you were driving a HEMI. RAM wouldn't be branding it the HEMI if it were stuck in the slow lane. 395HP is prodigious and no one would be calling a truck like that slow.

I'm thinking based on your experience, that you were likely driving the RAM 1500 with a 3.6L Pentastar V6.
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Old 07-23-2021, 11:56 AM   #114
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The Powerstroke's going to win the efficiency race every time.

Not sure you were driving a HEMI. RAM wouldn't be branding it the HEMI if it were stuck in the slow lane. 395HP is prodigious and no one would be calling a truck like that slow.

I'm thinking based on your experience, that you were likely driving the RAM 1500 with a 3.6L Pentastar V6.
WOW!! I guess I'm not that smart if I was fooled by a window sticker that said Hemi and bought a truck that had Hemi badging and the unmistakable 8 cylinder rumble. Oh well, maybe next time I won't be fooled.
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Old 07-23-2021, 12:43 PM   #115
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WOW!! I guess I'm not that smart if I was fooled by a window sticker that said Hemi and bought a truck that had Hemi badging and the unmistakable 8 cylinder rumble. Oh well, maybe next time I won't be fooled.
I am sure it was badged a HEMI. What is most likely, IMO, is that you weren’t exploring the upper rev ranges where all that power is produced.

Trivia: modern HEMI engines are not actually Hemis. Original Chrysler Hemi engines in the 50s and 60s had hemispherical combustion chambers and are legendary. Modern HEMI (tm) engines don’t, but it is a good marketing ploy and Dodge already owned the name. Lest we be too hard on them, we can keep in mind that Ford Mustang Mach 1 vehicles don’t actually go the speed of sound.
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Old 07-23-2021, 12:57 PM   #116
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I am sure it was badged a Hemi. What is most likely, IMO, is that you weren’t exploring the upper rev ranges where all that power is produced.
Yep, having the 8-speed tranny drop to 5th and whine along at 6000 rpm must not have been enough for me. I should have let it drop to 3rd at 8,000 rpm to maintain speed. Dang, I wish I knew my truck better!

All I'm saying is that my experience with the Hemi towing my trailer was not nearly as good as my experience with the 3.0 power stroke towing the same trailer. Again, it is my experience.

Perhaps I experimented with too many hallucinogenics back in the day. Apparently, I'm mistaken with my own experiences and there has got to be a reason for my misguided though process. Anyone else???

Oh, and I believe the Hemi produces max hp in the 5,500-6,000 range, so above that is just more engine noise and less power
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Old 07-23-2021, 01:08 PM   #117
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Yep, having the 8-speed transmission drop to 5th and whine along at 6000 rpm must not have been enough for me. I should have let it drop to 3rd at 8,000 rpm to maintain speed. Dang, I wish I knew my truck better!

All I'm saying is that my experience with the Hemi towing my trailer was not nearly as good as my experience with the 3.0 power stroke towing the same trailer. Again, it is my experience.

Perhaps I experimented with too many hallucinogenics back in the day. Apparently, I'm mistaken with my own experiences and there has got to be a reason for my misguided though process. Anyone else???

Oh, and I believe the Hemi produces max hp in the 5,500-6,000 range, so above that is just more engine noise and less power
You could certainly have had a preferable experience in the diesel F150 due to many reasons, such as range, mileage, noise, better cabin, or whatever. No question.

The point is that 395 hp is more than 250 hp, and if you were actually climbing faster with the diesel than the Ram was capable of, as you said, other things being equal, then something was wrong.
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Old 07-23-2021, 01:46 PM   #118
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You could certainly have had a preferable experience in the diesel F150 due to many reasons, such as range, mileage, noise, better cabin, or whatever. No question.

The point is that 395 hp is more than 250 hp, and if you were actually climbing faster with the diesel than the Ram was capable of, as you said, other things being equal, then something was wrong.
Apparently so. That's why I sold the Hemi and tow with the Powerstroke now.

This Thread originally started at "Gas vs. Diesel New 2018 F150". I posted my experiences as per the thread title, and others can't help but stress how my own experiences must be wrong because they don't jibe with their expectations, so something must be wrong.

My apologies for attempting to contribute to the thread. I'll keep my experiences to myself.
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Old 07-23-2021, 02:16 PM   #119
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Apparently so. That's why I sold the Hemi and tow with the Powerstroke now.

This Thread originally started at "Gas vs. Diesel New 2018 F150". I posted my experiences as per the thread title, and others can't help but stress how my own experiences must be wrong because they don't jibe with their expectations, so something must be wrong.

My apologies for attempting to contribute to the thread. I'll keep my experiences to myself.
There's no need to be defensive. You're entitled to your opinion and preferences.

Something doesn't add up. You might even agree as you probably bought a HEMI expecting performance. If it didn't deliver, I would expect most owners would demand to know why. Because that's a pretty expensive lesson to learn to trade in a newer vehicle.

If you said you preferred the efficiency and calm manner in which the Power Stroke climbs hills, that's one thing. But you're claiming a 250HP rated engine can climb faster than a 395HP rated engine (ratings that are agnostic to fuel type). That would be a patently false statement, which is why we're having this discussion.

The TFL video, with professional testers proves that. Objectively timed 7:44 second vs 9:40 seconds up the Ike Gauntlet, HEMI vs Power Stroke respectively. Not a small gap. Words like "picks up nicely", "this thing flew", all are in stark contrast to your comments. You may want to look at those videos to see how a gas engine is best used. Buying a high performance tool, and not knowing how to leverage it, is not the fault of the tool. And surely would be misleading others.
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Old 07-23-2021, 03:50 PM   #120
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So jcl what I got out of that was that the new GM & Ram diesel’s should be good according to your info until they actually go to a zero emissions requirement which I believe is many years away.

RedSHED great reply & info on the CEOs and the 1-2-3. Good reasons for Ford to concede the 3.0 diesel. I have a Ford belt buckle wearing BIL who has a pilot car service on the look for 3.0 Ford diesel. He knew they canned it and his 350k mile 302 needs replacing. The economy room bed longevity 1/2 ton capacity and diesel all match well for his use.

The lil diesels can be uber efficient & durable but shouldn’t be as fast as the Hemi from my experience and according to J2807. But they normally tow the same trailer much more effortlessly & efficiently than say the Hemi so it may seem faster until you push them both to WOT. Also if the Hemi had 3.21 vs 3.92 or rather whatever Ford has plus the 10 speed vs 8 speed. Dunno.

Horsepower wise not sure what is available for the Ford but you can an off the shelf 300 HP tune for the 14-19 Rams. But you would have to monitor EGTs trying to use that for towing up a grade. Haven’t researched the tune for the 2020 plus Ram 3.0 liter diesels yet. GMs are really locked so you are pretty much stuck with the 277 they make. But horsepower is mostly about speed how fast do you need to go or tow.

Put the horsepower with the 460/480/500 foot pounds of torque it will move as much weight as you should tow with a 1/2 platform and enough horsepower to do it at reasonable speed. If speed is your priority over economy get a gas V8. If economy & a short commute is the use get a gas V6s. Or possibly & especially in town a hybrid. Choice is what’s king. Pick the platform to your priorities.


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