Gas vs. Diesel - New 2018 F150

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by VernDiesel

So how far does it move with zero torque? I believe it doesn't. Not being a smart arse here just asking. Would a 1,000 HP 1 TQ engine move your truck and trailer up the grade quickly or no matter the new 10 speed not have enough torque to move it into a tall enough gear to move at any decent speed. Maybe its just yes that dress does make your butt look fat.

Run the calculation with 1000 hp and 1 ft lb torque and you can determine the rpm required to put that power to the road. The engine would need to spin at very high rpm to multiply the torque and reduce rpm to wheel speed. That’s why 1 horsepower is defined a 550 lb-ft/sec. There is no rotational term (angular velocity) in the equation because you don’t actually need rotation to produce work.

One of the other engineers can run the calculation. Let us know the required rpm. I know it’s off the original subject of the thread but it helps with understanding of the mathematical relationship between torque and horsepower. They are always inversely related by speed.

[jcl]

Thread revival.

Ford announced yesterday that they have discontinued the F150 Powerstroke diesel. They noted that if one requires maximum torque for towing, they have the hybrid F150 Powerboost. The diesel model has become irrelevant it seems.

There were two old F150 diesel threads, but this one was more fun due to all the torque vs horsepower discussion.

[pteck]

I found the news interesting as well and glad you brought this thread back up. How quick time flies in a short few years. With EVs and hybrids being the now dominant forces in the market.

As Daquenzer referenced from Car and Driver in an earlier post:

Torque is vital to every engine’s operation, but horsepower is what distinguishes a great engine from a good one.

The F150 diesel never made enough HP to shine.

Now the F150 PowerBoost Hybrid - 430 horsepower and 570 lb.-ft. of torque. Now that's a party I can get behind. HP and TQ. Not to mention the aweseome 7.2kw generator option, which seems perfect for a tow vehicle. But that's for another thread.

Diesels time has come on 1/2 ton and passenger sized vehicles.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by jcl

Thread revival.

Ford announced yesterday that they have discontinued the F150 Powerstroke diesel. They noted that if one requires maximum torque for towing, they have the hybrid F150 Powerboost. The diesel model has become irrelevant it seems.

There were two old F150 diesel threads, but this one was more fun due to all the torque vs horsepower discussion.

If one requires maximum torque for towing, there is the Powerstroke diesel with over 1000 ft-lb of torque and almost 500 horsepower. There is no substitute.

[EarStreaming]

I love them all; PS, PB and now the Lighting... They all have their own advantages and disadvantages and honestly the best rig is the one that suits 'your needs'. I personally would love a PB but unfortunately we bring too much crap...err...toys when we glamp That being said payload and tank size is our priority so for now we'll stick to our HDPP F-150.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

If one requires maximum torque for towing, there is the Powerstroke diesel with over 1000 ft-lb of torque and almost 500 horsepower. There is no substitute.

That is because the electric HD pickups aren’t out yet. When they are, that won’t be true any longer, and over time, the HD diesels will go the way of the smaller diesels.

[Peter417]

Originally Posted by jcl

That is because the electric HD pickups aren’t out yet. When they are, that won’t be true any longer, and over time, the HD diesels will go the way of the smaller diesels.

It seems we are a long ways off from Electrics competing with a big diesel. The range is not there for cross country 75mph towing. Let's also remember that the battery industry is an environmental disaster right now.

[pteck]

We're talking about the half ton space. If one needs any performance at all, the diesel is not it. Regardless of torque, it doesn't make enough HP.

It use to be the 1/2 ton diesel could stand on its merits of efficiency and initial torque. With the advent of hybrids, that have efficiency, off the line torque, and power, there's no more place for the 1/2 ton diesel. Points being made for HD diesel trucks or against EVs, doesn't change this fact and not enough people are buying the diesel F150. For good reason.

It's a bellwether. The same dynamics may be playing out in the HD truck space. Commercial tractor trailer space. There's demonstrable technologies, and soon product that will compete at a serious level. Technology marches forward.

[RedSHED]

Originally Posted by jcl

That is because the electric HD pickups aren’t out yet. When they are, that won’t be true any longer, and over time, the HD diesels will go the way of the smaller diesels.

I see this coming too. A LOT of haulage is < 200km or about 120 150 miles. Batteries make a lot of sense there. Long haul is a little different, and right now it looks like speed of fueling might offset the efficiency loss of hydrogen fuel cells.
Daimler is a big player (owns Freightliner) and they seem pretty clear about their intentions, at least regarding internal combustion in the commercial sector.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by pteck

We're talking about the half ton space. If one needs any performance at all, the diesel is not it. Regardless of torque, it doesn't make enough HP.

It use to be the 1/2 ton diesel could stand on its merits of efficiency and initial torque. With the advent of hybrids, that have efficiency, off the line torque, and power, there's no more place for the 1/2 ton diesel. Points being made for HD diesel trucks or against EVs, doesn't change this fact and not enough people are buying the diesel F150. For good reason.

It's a bellwether. The same dynamics may be playing out in the HD truck space. Commercial tractor trailer space. There's demonstrable technologies, and soon product that will compete at a serious level. Technology marches forward.

Well, technology may march forward, but it ain't there yet for long hauls with a larger AS, especially in the mountains, that's for sure! If I knew where the charging stations were located, we could do a drive by "wave" to you while you wait in line to charge and get back on the road!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Peter417

It seems we are a long ways off from Electrics competing with a big diesel. The range is not there for cross country 75mph towing. Let's also remember that the battery industry is an environmental disaster right now.

I have a hard time seeing 3/4 and 1 ton diesels as big diesels. Big diesels are much larger, and heavier duty. We could start with Class 8.

The range is not there yet for a HD pickup diesel. It is for heavier duty trucks now in testing, ref the Volvo, Freightliner, and Tesla products undergoing testing on longer routes.

The battery industry has a long way to go before it approaches the environmental disaster that the fossil fuel industry represents.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Well, technology may march forward, but it ain't there yet for long hauls with a larger AS, especially in the mountains, that's for sure! If I knew where the charging stations were located, we could do a drive by "wave" to you while you wait in line to charge and get back on the road!

Sure, I agree it's not there yet. But it may be closer than you understand.

Mountains? With 1000hp and 1000tq, me thinks it won't be an issue. No loss of power due to altitude, re-gen of power on the backside of a mountain with "engine braking" in ways no reciprocating drivetrain will match.

Charge stations? Non-EV owners can't comprehend the true advantage EVs have. A large percentage of the charging will just be done at home, or campsite, to start out the day with a full "tank". Most every travel day wouldn't even require a charge stop. Even if an EV can only do 200-250miles laden, it wouldn't be more than 1-2 stops at a clean and bougie charge station to take it a long 300-500 mile full day of travel.

What does fueling a diesel HD truck look like (and smell like)? Visiting pleasant commercial fuel stations? Unhitching at the campsite to fuel up first before starting the days travels? DEF?

Of course there's pros and cons to each. IMO, there's plenty of room to do better than the reality we have today because it ain't so rosy.

If you look back at the start of this thread, the 1/2 ton diesel dream played out in 3 short years. Long live diesels.

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by RedSHED

I see this coming too. A LOT of haulage is < 200km or about 120 150 miles. Batteries make a lot of sense there. Long haul is a little different, and right now it looks like speed of fueling might offset the efficiency loss of hydrogen fuel cells.
Daimler is a big player (owns Freightliner) and they seem pretty clear about their intentions, at least regarding internal combustion in the commercial sector.

So what are the intentions of Diamler?

Thanks!

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by jcl

I have a hard time seeing 3/4 and 1 ton diesels as big diesels. Big diesels are much larger, and heavier duty. We could start with Class 8.

The range is not there yet for a HD pickup diesel. It is for heavier duty trucks now in testing, ref the Volvo, Freightliner, and Tesla products undergoing testing on longer routes.

The battery industry has a long way to go before it approaches the environmental disaster that the fossil fuel industry represents.

We just spent 2 days traveling I-81 from PA to TN to attend the international rally. Every fifth vehicle seems to be a tractor trailer. I know the pitfalls of diesel power but I can't comprehend how all these long haul trucks will be able to get a quick battery recharge if they were electric. Plus the thousands and thousands and thousands of cars.

I drive a Cummins but also have a BMW X5 hybrid. So I'm not against battery operated cars but see the transition to EV's as taking a few decades.

Am I seeing it wrong?

[rodsterinfl]

Diesel has been around for a long time, and is crutching along with band-aid solutions to its nature. The game changer is gas, with renewed efficiency, torque, and power, such that it is squeezing further, the niche that diesels once had. And we all know hybrids and electrics are on the horizon with clean sheet solutions to ICE powertrains.

Yeah, so I don’t own a diesel, but I sure do relish and enjoy torque. Do you own an EV?

@pteck -you bring up some important points that come to summarize that things are always changing. With the push to electric I have been paying close attention to the Lightning and the Cyber Truck but realize that for towing, we aren't there yet. Perhaps for some they may want to pull off and charge every 100-140 miles while on the interstate but that is just too much for me. Diesel's benefits are 35% efficiency and torque but that gap has been dashed away by gassers and running costs- fuel and DEF. What becomes the diesel benefit now is more about duty of the truck- half-ton vs. 3/4 ton or payload.

@wlanford- you make an important statement too that the truck isn't screaming while climbing a hill. TRUE DAT! There is a big difference between 1700 and 3700; however, my thought is that around 3000 is about the limit noise-wise before I call it screaming. That is what turned me off to "other brands" a few years ago when I shopped compared to the eco boost- high output RPM ratings for HP and torque. I have noticed too that Ford is creeping up on the RPM for the torque as they increase the power each year. My 2017 torque of 470 is at 2500 - 600RPM less than the new one but also with 30ft lbs less torque.

[RedSHED]

Originally Posted by Hans627

So what are the intentions of Diamler?



Thanks!

From daimler dot com "We are pursuing our path towards completely emission-free driving with batteries or fuel cells. We at Daimler are convinced that the future is electric. "
Fuel cells are worth keeping an eye on. 15 years ago I didn't think LEDs would ever be usable as headlights, yet here we are.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by pteck

Sure, I agree it's not there yet. But it may be closer than you understand.

Mountains? With 1000hp and 1000tq, me thinks it won't be an issue. No loss of power due to altitude, re-gen of power on the backside of a mountain with "engine braking" in ways no reciprocating drivetrain will match.

Charge stations? Non-EV owners can't comprehend the true advantage EVs have. A large percentage of the charging will just be done at home, or campsite, to start out the day with a full "tank". Most every travel day wouldn't even require a charge stop. Even if an EV can only do 200-250miles laden, it wouldn't be more than 1-2 stops at a clean and bougie charge station to take it a long 300-500 mile full day of travel.

What does fueling a diesel HD truck look like (and smell like)? Visiting pleasant commercial fuel stations? Unhitching at the campsite to fuel up first before starting the days travels? DEF?

Of course there's pros and cons to each. IMO, there's plenty of room to do better than the reality we have today because it ain't so rosy.

If you look back at the start of this thread, the 1/2 ton diesel dream played out in 3 short years. Long live diesels.

Mountains- my point is, going "up" requires more electric power, and if towing surely will deplete your batteries faster than level ground; similar to burning more fuel of course, but I can go 400-500 miles between tanks, and there are filling stations all over. Not sure you can say that about EV's...yet?! And as rodsterinfl points out, most of us are not anxious to plan our trips around a 100-150 mile charging station, assuming there are any of those installed yet remote mountain towns...I know here in Thayne WY, there are none...if you were wanting to drive from Salt Lake to Jackson WY to visit Tetons and were towing...Good Luck!

Smell??I can see you haven't experienced that which you mention as "concerns" owning a diesel. First, DEF is not an issue; nor is fueling unless your talking about getting in the "fast fuel" semi truck lanes at a Flying J type stop; we don't go there, so not like you imagine in your statement.

BTW Ptek, did you order yours yet? We all get the technology being mandated means change is comming...just not there yet, and do not see it likely to tow a larger AS with EV on 300+ mile trips including the mountains, in my lifetime... Still appreciate technology advances. For now, my F250 works pretty well for us.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Mountains- my point is, going "up" requires more electric power, and if towing surely will deplete your batteries faster than level ground; similar to burning more fuel of course, but I can go 400-500 miles between tanks, and there are filling stations all over. Not sure you can say that about EV's...yet?! And as rodsterinfl points out, most of us are not anxious to plan our trips around a 100-150 mile charging station, assuming there are any of those installed yet remote mountain towns...I know here in Thayne WY, there are none...if you were wanting to drive from Salt Lake to Jackson WY to visit Tetons and were towing...Good Luck!

<snip>


We all get the technology being mandated means change is coming...just not there yet, and do not see it likely to tow a larger AS with EV on 300+ mile trips including the mountains, in my lifetime... Still appreciate technology advances. For now, my F250 works pretty well for us.

Real world examples are good.

Going up a mountain isn't so much of an issue (unless you never come down) as you will recover charge on the descent, as long as the battery has room to accept that charge. We come through the Rockies between Vancouver and Calgary (not towing) and end up with more charge at the bottom of descents than at the top.

I don't know the roads from Salt Lake City to Jackson, but my Plugshare app does. It showed me over 100 charge stations along the route it selected. Some parallel routes may not have the same access to charging stations. I just focused on the Superchargers, and I saw 8, counting Salt Lake City and Jackson. Just going from one to another, there was no single leg over 92 miles. There are Superchargers in Evanston, Tremonton, Pocatello, and Idaho Falls, for example. When heavier duty towing vehicles are out, they should have more range than today, but Can Am reported that they can do that route with 30% battery reserve, towing an AS27 with a Model 3, which is not a large vehicle, today. I think you may want to reconsider your own lifetime estimate, and we certainly hope you are around longer than today.

Cheers

Jeff

[pteck]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Mountains- my point is, going "up" requires more electric power, and if towing surely will deplete your batteries faster than level ground; similar to burning more fuel of course, but I can go 400-500 miles between tanks, and there are filling stations all over. Not sure you can say that about EV's...yet?! And as rodsterinfl points out, most of us are not anxious to plan our trips around a 100-150 mile charging station, assuming there are any of those installed yet remote mountain towns...I know here in Thayne WY, there are none...if you were wanting to drive from Salt Lake to Jackson WY to visit Tetons and were towing...Good Luck!

Smell??I can see you haven't experienced that which you mention as "concerns" owning a diesel. First, DEF is not an issue; nor is fueling unless your talking about getting in the "fast fuel" semi truck lanes at a Flying J type stop; we don't go there, so not like you imagine in your statement.

BTW Ptek, did you order yours yet? We all get the technology being mandated means change is comming...just not there yet, and do not see it likely to tow a larger AS with EV on 300+ mile trips including the mountains, in my lifetime... Still appreciate technology advances. For now, my F250 works pretty well for us.

So you don't think I dismiss diesels, they are awesome powerplants and definitely have a place. I happen to be an engineer of a high tech diesel platform, where no other fuel will meet the trade space and performance parameters required. Just had a major design review today, upgrading to a new generation design. Fortunately emissions do not apply. At the same time, keeping an open mind is good as technologies change.

Yes, I have a Cybertruck tri-motor on order. If they prove to deliver a 500+ mile (unladen) capable rig, it may very well become my primary tow vehicle. Then 275+ miles laden towing range would not be out of the question based on indications today. That's not unlike my gas vehicle now, that has the same unladen vs laden range.

One thing not understood well about EVs is that they are "refueled" from the comfort of home, without having to ever go to a public station. In contrast, 100% driven range is fed by a public pump station for ICE vehicles. Versus arguably 20% fed by a public charge station for EV, if that. The same could also hold true to a significant degree camping as there's a nice power pedestal. So having giant range between gas stops may not trump the day to day convenience of an EV that almost never has to stop at a station unless driving longer distances. I would be more than happy to do the 1 or 2 charging stops on the rare occasion for the long haul days for the day to day convenience.

Then there's the cost per mile cost difference which is dramatic. Nevermind the maintenance costs.

EV infrastructure will only get better. As is, I don't hesitate to drive my wife's EV long distances. In some cities, diesel pump availability is actually contracting.

[RedSHED]

Originally Posted by pteck

...
Yes, I have a Cybertruck tri-motor on order. ...

Every time I see "Cybertruck," I think of this.



https://www.cybertruckchallenge.org/

it's a cybersecurity event.