Gas vs. Diesel - New 2018 F150

[KWN306]

I own a 16 F150 SC 4 x 4, 6.5' bed, 3.55 rear, with the 3.5 Eco Boost and a 6 spd.

Been recalled twice for the door opening when driving down the road (yes it happened to me and my wife) and a defective seat track bolt.

The transmission works great. I have a 1784 # payload.

I pull a 30' FC and get 7 to 9 mpg which I think is terrible. Empty I get 20.0 mpg.

When those twin turbos spool up the fuel gauge drops like a rock.

I purchased a used Chevy 2500HD with a 6.0 and a 3.73 rear and get about 10 to 11 mpg.

There is no replacement for cubic inch displacement.

I've been a Ford man all my life but I'll never own another one. I'm very disappointed in the my 2016 F-150.

[Milo1952]

I agree. SO SO mpg for a diesel

[Milo1952]

Just got 14.4 mpg over 50 mi. today with my 2016 f-250 supercab diesel. Lovin it !

[Milo1952]

Forgot to mention while towing my international 30'

[Wolf Alaska]

My 2003 Ford Excursion Limited V-10 4x4 is still doing a good job towing my 34' all aluminium, riveted Featherlite toyhauler. At close to10,000 lbs. with 4 wheel OHV & 2 dual sport Kawas on board the Featherlite; the Excursion usually achieves 9 to 10 mpg.

44 gallons of alcohol free guzzoline makes possible an all day run and easily puts 350 miles behind us in an easy day.

I may also post about the 3 other TVs in my fleet, but time does not permit.

I'll close by saying that Ford has shown the world what it can do...the mighty Excursion. Ford engineering is coping with stringent regulations and still designs legal vehicles that are useful.

Let's Roll !
Wolf

[pteck]

It’s great that there’s some awesome diesel platforms out there. But let’s get back to the F150 Diesel vs Gas proposition.

Here’s a dyno from a 2017 F150 3.5 EB. Note that dyno’s measure output at the wheels, so it factors in drivetrain losses. Works out to be something like ~10% here in this sample (classically it’s ~20%). I’ve taken the liberty to plot the spec’d torque and HP outputs of the new diesel with the same 90% factor. Peaks are noted with a diamond. And added some best case scenario horizontal lines to visually see where the diesels output stacks against the gas.

The picture doesn’t tell a pretty story.



The diesel is more directly comparable to the 2.7L EB gas motor in output. The 3.5L EB is just in another class and completely punches above the diesel, except for the narrowest of rpm band right off idle. The 3.5 EB rarely gets criticized for a lack of low rpm torque, and it’s obvious why from the dyno. It’s output curve looks much more like a diesel, except it can hold that torque plateau way out to over 5000 rpm which allows it to put out that stellar HP number. The diesel would be falling off by 3500rpm. Area under the curve is another common way to view dynos. Again, even visualizing the best case diesel output, it’s nowhere near the 3.5 EB.

[GSP9]

I had been anxiously awaiting Ford putting a diesel in 1/2 ton trucks for the past handful of years. I was originally interested in the Ram eco diesel but quickly found that the payload capacity was not great. I looked at a few on dealer lots and they were in the 1,210 to 1,250 pound range. So, I was hoping Ford would improve upon the payload and still offer similar power and fuel mileage returns. But, I was disappointed when Ford announced that they were only offering the diesel in fleet trucks and trim levels above Lariat. Personally, I'm not interested in all the frills and cost of Lariat and above. I'm just an XLT guy. After kicking it around long enough I finally decided the 3.5 ecoboost is a better bet for me. Plus, not sure about other parts of the country but here in PA, diesel tends to be $0.40 to 0.60 more per gallon than gas. So any increase in mpg's with the diesel would most likely be offset with the higher price of diesel.

I also talked to my buddy who is a mechanic and owns his own shop. He's a Ford guy thru and thru and he was saying that Ford will put a good diesel in the F150 but that it would be fairly choked down because of regulations. Meanwhile, he said he has seen very few problems with the 3.5 ecoboost in his shop. One of his customers tows on occasion and just surpassed 200,000 miles with no mechanical issues.

[jcl]

It was reported that Ford expects the diesel to account for only 5% of F150 sales.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by wlanford

Note that the diesel makes max torque at 1750 RPM. I like the fact that my engine is not screaming while climbing a hill.

That makes you a good candidate for the 3.5 Ecoboost over the diesel, in the F150. Look at pteck’s chart and note that at the power level corresponding to the peak power of the diesel, the Ecoboost is running at lower rpm. Although ‘screaming’ isn’t a good way to describe running at 2900 rpm when the redline is double that.

[Mollysdad]

Since you asked, gas.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by jcl

That makes you a good candidate for the 3.5 Ecoboost over the diesel, in the F150. Look at pteck’s chart and note that at the power level corresponding to the peak power of the diesel, the Ecoboost is running at lower rpm. Although ‘screaming’ isn’t a good way to describe running at 2900 rpm when the redline is double that.

He should overlay the numbers for the V8. Would need to rescale the chart though. I would still choose the V8 over both of these.

[sbowman]

Originally Posted by pteck

No offense at all. If you want to peg me for uneducated and closed minded to justify your position, be my guest. Never mind that my professional world is all about executing analysis, design, and implementation through due diligence, modeling, trade studies, etc., to come up with the right choices to make things work. Billion dollar things. But maybe I should tell my customers that we have to drive it first?

What does your 40+ years of towing experience tell me? That you are taking your anecdotal historical experiences and applying it to your skewed perspective of the modern world. Your ¾ Suburban was awesome in its time. So was the 454. But its well under 300hp output doesn’t hold a candle to modern engines that have much higher and broader output curves.

You might not believe it, but OEMs spends millions doing analysis on what they bring to market. Many have diesel variants for foreign markets, that never come to the US. It’s generally the very reasons of power output and emissions that don’t hit the mark. They know Americans like power (HP) for our vast freeway systems. Range is not usually an issue with our extensive fueling infrastructure. And we have stringent emissions requirements that would further choke diesel output and performance (DEF cost and complexity).

Sure seems like a lot of F150 gas truck owners are here who are more than satisfied? But you’ll keep talking, without giving us a compelling objective attribute? That’s not “get the F250/350 diesel”, at how much more cost? BTW, cost was not the issue for me, as I choose my TV, despite it being more than any F250/350 diesel.

Diesel has been around for a long time, and is crutching along with band-aid solutions to its nature. The game changer is gas, with renewed efficiency, torque, and power, such that it is squeezing further, the niche that diesels once had. And we all know hybrids and electrics are on the horizon with clean sheet solutions to ICE powertrains.

Yeah, so I don’t own a diesel, but I sure do relish and enjoy torque. Do you own an EV?

Deflection is an interesting reply to questions asked, not unexpected.

Know and understand OEM's MO, monies prior to and after going to market. The Ford Pinto comes to mind. LOL, sorry could not help it. Modeling, do you like to read? You might like Michael Crichton State of Fear, good read. Puts a lot of what you have stated into perspective.

For me, 40 years of experience has provided both been there, done that and 40 years of Brain food. Best of all worlds.

The 454 was an ok engine, 460 was better, both good for their time, had both. Had a 73 VW bus, installed 911S motor in it. Got down the road pretty good, returning 22 mpg, would smoke the rear tires through 2nd gear.

Gas vs. Diesel is personal choice. Is diesel dead, some want it to be. I am neutral as to what others want or buy. Have not tried to sell one or the other to anyone. Same with MFG type or size. I reasonably presume most people are free/open thinkers and buy what fits their needs and wants. Not my job to think for others and/or to sway. It does appear some do believe it is their job.

Regulation eventually kill's and or changes all things. The question in my mind, who is reaping the rewards and for what cause?

Do we own/have an EV, no. EV, Dr. Porsche 1898. More interested in Hydrogen, less toxic.

Be well and safe travels

[pteck]

Originally Posted by sbowman

Deflection is an interesting reply to questions asked, not unexpected.

Know and understand OEM's MO, monies prior to and after going to market. The Ford Pinto comes to mind. LOL, sorry could not help it. Modeling, do you like to read? You might like Michael Crichton State of Fear, good read. Puts a lot of what you have stated into perspective.

For me, 40 years of experience has provided both been there, done that and 40 years of Brain food. Best of all worlds.

The 454 was an ok engine, 460 was better, both good for their time, had both. Had a 73 VW bus, installed 911S motor in it. Got down the road pretty good, returning 22 mpg, would smoke the rear tires through 2nd gear.

Gas vs. Diesel is personal choice. Is diesel dead, some want it to be. I am neutral as to what others want or buy. Have not tried to sell one or the other to anyone. Same with MFG type or size. I reasonably presume most people are free/open thinkers and buy what fits their needs and wants. Not my job to think for others and/or to sway. It does appear some do believe it is their job.

Regulation eventually kill's and or changes all things. The question in my mind, who is reaping the rewards and for what cause?

Do we own/have an EV, no. EV, Dr. Porsche 1898. More interested in Hydrogen, less toxic.

Be well and safe travels

You know, I'd probably have a great time having a beer with you. While we disagree on some points, we'd probably would have a lot more common understanding than it would seem.

I don't fundamentally appose diesels. They come in the biggest baddest forms when it comes to heavy lifting. I just don't agree on the perception that if it's diesel, it must be better at towing. There's plenty of objective data to the contrary.

Which brings us back to the topic of this particular thread.

I know you'd choose an F250/350 diesel. No argument in that. I likely would too if it came down to a powerplant choice in that chassis.

But are you saying you would take the F150 diesel? Over the EB 3.5, 2.7, or NA V8?

Separately, that flat 6 swap sounds incredibly fun. I've done full driveline swaps in my time too, but with the "fun" of sorting outing modern electronics.

[sbowman]

Originally Posted by pteck

You know, I'd probably have a great time having a beer with you. While we disagree on some points, we'd probably would have a lot more common understanding than it would seem.

I don't fundamentally appose diesels. They come in the biggest baddest forms when it comes to heavy lifting. I just don't agree on the perception that if it's diesel, it must be better at towing. There's plenty of objective data to the contrary.

Which brings us back to the topic of this particular thread.

I know you'd choose an F250/350 diesel. No argument in that. I likely would too if it came down to a powerplant choice in that chassis.

But are you saying you would take the F150 diesel? Over the EB 3.5, 2.7, or NA V8?

Separately, that flat 6 swap sounds incredibly fun. I've done full driveline swaps in my time too, but with the "fun" of sorting outing modern electronics.

Whether one opposes Diesel and/or Gas has no bearing w/me. It is to me personal preference, nothing more.

Was a Ford guy for most of 38 years, gassers and big blocks. With a lot of research and time spent, Cummins in my humble opinion is hands down best bang for the buck for me. Cumminus has been at it for a long time. So no Ford did not get my vote this go around. Not saying one is better than the other, Ford just did not fit this time for me, nothing more.

Good question w/the F-150 Gas or Diesel, presuming AS is 25' or less. I can not honestly answer your question. Both will drive and tow differently w/regards to their power plants. Numbers do not always represent real time.

Beer is ok, however I like wine better, have for some time.

Best regards and safe travels

[snakyjake]

What are the towing MPG's?
How does the V8 place?
What is the towing cycle duty? (towing up a short hill versus mountain pass)
Aren't these car diesels, not truck diesels? And what should we not/expect from them?
Is the cooling capability the same?
I'm not sure I'd like the gasoline high RPM for torque vs diesel low RPM over a long stretch of uphill.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by snakyjake

What are the towing MPG's?
How does the V8 place?
What is the towing cycle duty? (towing up a short hill versus mountain pass)
Aren't these car diesels, not truck diesels? And what should we not/expect from them?
Is the cooling capability the same?
I'm not sure I'd like the gasoline high RPM for torque vs diesel low RPM over a long stretch of uphill.

1. Too early to say
2. Good peak hp. Same maximum torque as the 2.7 Ecoboost, but peakier. 3.5 Ecoboost for the best torque curve.
3. Most likely the same for all power plants in the same platform.
4. Yes. Expect relatively high fuel economy, especially when empty.
5. Expect the higher hp engines to have more cooling capacity at the same ambients. The Ecoboost 3.5 throttled down to the same power level as the diesel will have huge cooling reserves. Not many will resist the urge to use the available power, however.
6. At the same hp as the peak hp of the diesel, the Ecoboost is running at lower rpm. See the chart posted above. Diesel has good torque off idle, but that isn’t likely the engine speed you would use on a long hill.

[sbowman]

Originally Posted by snakyjake

What are the towing MPG's?
How does the V8 place?
What is the towing cycle duty? (towing up a short hill versus mountain pass)
Aren't these car diesels, not truck diesels? And what should we not/expect from them?
Is the cooling capability the same?
I'm not sure I'd like the gasoline high RPM for torque vs diesel low RPM over a long stretch of uphill.

It is a given, gassers will and have always required a higher RPM to achieve needed torque to pull grades. Current engines still have this engineering design demand. Small blocks and big blocks each have their torque range to do this in, even today. It is in their design, stroke/length and piston size.

The same can be applied to medium/smaller sized diesels compared to the big diesel's. I am not sure today's smaller diesels are what I would consider a car diesel, if you look back at GM in the 70's, 80's. Today's smaller diesels have a greater range as to what they service and or are capable of.

What I think about is engine life of one or the other over time. What demands do you put on your TV. What or how many new TV's you are going to go through and at what cost.

Gas vs. diesel has and will continue to be argued, same as to which engine size. It can be said each has its positive and negative aspects, however in opinion of the one doing the argument.

Current engine designs are amazing whether gas or diesel.

Best regards and safe travels

[pteck]

Originally Posted by sbowman

It is a given, gassers will and have always required a higher RPM to achieve needed torque to pull grades. Current engines still have this engineering design demand. Small blocks and big blocks each have their torque range to do this in, even today. It is in their design, stroke/length and piston size.

The same can be applied to medium/smaller sized diesels compared to the big diesel's. I am not sure today's smaller diesels are what I would consider a car diesel, if you look back at GM in the 70's, 80's. Today's smaller diesels have a greater range as to what they service and or are capable of.

We can talk in generalizations, but this is certainly not true for this particular comparison. The F150 3.5EB flat out trumps the output of the diesel motor, even in torque at low rpm. You don't have to spin her if you don't want. And you'll be getting more torque and hp at the same climbing rpm that the diesel will be using.

I've highlighted the functional climbing rpm of the diesel. See how the 3.5 EB motor makes more torque. The diesel motor does have more torque in a small window off idle and below 2000rpm, but in any real grade, it won't be operating below 2000rpm as it still has to seek max hp @3250rpm to do real work up the hill.



The kicker is that the 3.5EB has deep reserves way beyond the operation range of the diesel. From 3500rpm to well above 5000rpm, if you so choose.

[sbowman]

Originally Posted by sbowman

I am not sure today's smaller diesels are what I would consider a car diesel, if you look back at GM in the 70's, 80's. Today's smaller diesels have a greater range as to what they service and or are capable of.

My error left a word out, the word is not. I would not consider a car Diesel by to days standards of what they are put in. On the other hand yes they use them in SUV's.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by sbowman

I am not sure today's smaller diesels are what I would consider a car diesel, if you look back at GM in the 70's, 80's. Today's smaller diesels have a greater range as to what they service and or are capable of.

The diesels under discussion were designed for passenger vehicle use. They are used in sport utilities, but generally not in trucks (with the exception of the RAM 1500 and F150 recent offerings). Not that there is anything wrong with a diesel designed for a car.

The Lion V6 was designed for Peugeot (407 and 607), Citroen (C5 and C6), various Jaguar models, and Land Rover. Land Rover changed the twin turbo for a single turbo for more torque and less hp, but it was the same engine.

The VM Motori 630 came in the Jeep GC, Chrysler 300, and various Maserati models (in a higher hp configuration) before the RAM 1500.

Similar story with small diesels in BMW, Mercedes, and VW/Audi/Porsche sport utilities, shared across other car models.

Ford does make small truck diesels (like the 3.2 in the Transit) as does VM Motori. They often have lower ratings.

IMO the issue with the GM (Oldsmobile) diesels of decades past isn’t that they were designed for cars, but rather that they weren’t always designed well, or as diesels, from the start.