Gas -vs- Diesel MPG

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

That isn’t what Cummins says. They promote their natural gas truck engines as having lower cost per mile than diesels, all the way up to Class 8. Just look at the DGE price for natural gas. Consider the lower maintenance costs, no complicated exhaust treatment required, and so on. They burn cleanly enough that oil change intervals are greatly extended (the new 15 litre class 8 engine lists up to 60,000 Mike change intervals). They are not right for every application, but they certainly have cost per mile advantages.

https://www.cummins.com/news/2023/09...al-gas-engines

For towing in Airstream weight ranges, I couldn’t justify a diesel the last time I purchased an ICE vehicle. The vehicle I was purchasing offered both diesel and gasoline options. The TCO analysis was pretty straightforward in my case. Diesel purchase price premium was known. Residual values for both models were known. The time value of money was straightforward to calculate. The fuel consumption was known. Fuel pricing was based on provincial averages at the time. I left maintenance out, as I expected higher maintenance cost on the diesel, and the dealer information supported that, but it wasn’t a big number. Diesel wasn’t as readily available, but it was manageable. It would have taken me five years to reach break even, and the diesel option had more risk to that number.

I understand people wanting a diesel pickup for emotional or preference reasons, but not strictly TCO. And for a heavier truck, the smart money is on natural gas for many applications.

JCL- have to ask...did you ever purchase/own an Airstream or are you suggesting your ICE decision was "just in case you did get an Airstream"? Other comment, where in the common traveling world of RV and ICE travel, do you see "Natural Gas" stations? I don't look for them, and occassionally, I may see one, but not very often. Like owning an EVTV looking and then waiting for charging stations... (had to ask)

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

JCL- have to ask...did you ever purchase/own an Airstream or are you suggesting your ICE decision was "just in case you did get an Airstream"? Other comment, where in the common traveling world of RV and ICE travel, do you see "Natural Gas" stations? I don't look for them, and occassionally, I may see one, but not very often. Like owning an EVTV looking and then waiting for charging stations...

My last ICE vehicle purchase decision was for towing other than Airstreams. Lots of towing, thanks, just not with an Airstream. Other trailers function pretty much the same, in that you hook them up and go. And the diesel, gasoline, or natural gas engines being used don't actually know what you are hitched to

It is not uncommon to tow heavy commercial trailers with natural gas (we have natural gas stations here, and the last company I worked for developed, sold, and supported natural gas engines ranging from Ford pickups (we supplied the factory option on F series) through vocational applications, to class 8 (Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo, and others were our OEM partners) and over that size (rail, and off road heavy equipment). Lots of those Class 8 trucks pulled semi trailers, usually with a LNG tank, and HPDI fuel system.

I wouldn't choose a natural gas engine for towing an Airstream, but then I wouldn't choose a heavy duty commercial truck either. And note that the comment was, after all, directed at a post that said all heavy commercial trucks use diesel, a claim that was patently false.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

2017 ram 6.7 cumalong 4x4 76000 miles. 65-70,000 towing our 13 31’ classic. Oil changes every 5000 miles transmission service every 40000. Fuel filters at 25000 miles 21 empty 11-15 towing coast to coast 3:54 gears 62-68 mph 12-1400 rpm just like my E model cat

3406E was a great engine. Sold lots of them. They stopped production in 1999 though. And a little heavy to pull a travel trailer.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

..... Other comment, where in the common traveling world of RV and ICE travel, do you see "Natural Gas" stations? ......

Hi

1) Look for the "U-Haul" sign, most of their full up "store" locations are equipped.

2) There are a surprising number of gas stations that also will fill a propane cylinder.

No, I'm not suggesting it's anything I would depend on finding every 100 miles as I chug down the road. For a variety of reasons, I would not go that way for towing an AS.

If you have an AS van, you get a "built in" LP tank. The only way to fill it is someplace that lets you drive up to the LP gear. There are a *lot* of other Class A/B/C rigs that are set up this way.

Bob

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

1) Look for the "U-Haul" sign, most of their full up "store" locations are equipped.

2) There are a surprising number of gas stations that also will fill a propane cylinder.

No, I'm not suggesting it's anything I would depend on finding every 100 miles as I chug down the road. For a variety of reasons, I would not go that way for towing an AS.

If you have an AS van, you get a "built in" LP tank. The only way to fill it is someplace that lets you drive up to the LP gear. There are a *lot* of other Class A/B/C rigs that are set up this way.

Bob

They're talking CNG not LP.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

They're talking CNG not LP.

And LNG, which provides greater range for heavy trucks.

We have LP Autogas stations as well, but they are not as common. Some of our UHaul locations sell Autogas, both to the public and for their own LP truck rentals.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

And LNG, which provides greater range for heavy trucks.

We have LP Autogas stations as well, but they are not as common. Some of our UHaul locations sell Autogas, both to the public and for their own LP truck rentals.

Maybe in Canada, but not around the US! Not common LNG or LP Autogas stations, because vehicles for those fuel are not commonly used by RV'rs..at least from my experience. UHaul locations are not where most of us go to get our fuel. ICE still will be around a long time. Saw a very interesting article last week where they ran the numbers for the "proposed" all ICE replacement by EV and EV trucks...very telling that the overall elimination especially for commercial, will never work with today's technology due to the cost, weight of commercial use trucks, and availability of electricity would be depleted faster than we could generate it; specifically, pointing out that the population, say in the US, would have to sacrifice home use (AC, Electric appliances, etc) for the EV trucks that will consume more energy than anyone is talking about to be useful cargo Transportaion vs ICE Semi's. ... Anyone else see that program? I was traveling and was not able to capture the details of who put it on.

[richard5933]

Here's a look at CNG and LNG filling locations in the US.

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natura...arest?fuel=CNG

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Here's a look at CNG and LNG filling locations in the US.

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natura...arest?fuel=CNG

Thanks Richard...I know there is propane, but again, not as available in some areas. Can be frustrating traveling just to fill your bottles at times where we travel. (note: MT not mentioned on that map, and only a couple places in WY). How many LP or NG vehicles towing RV's are there out there these days? I understand some commercial service trucks and busses, but have not noticed any mainstream folks like ourselves towing with these? Am I missing something or what?

[10Smiles]

Back in the '70's my dad had a Chevy pickup truck that was converted to run on propane. He had a 100 gallon propane tank crossways in the front of the bed. My parents didn't have their Airstream trailer yet, so they weren't RVing at the time. Only local trips and pulling their boat trailer to boat launches and such. When they got their Airstream, they switched to a Suburban with a 454. That map linked above is interesting and makes it look like there are quite a few places to fill up, but if you zoom in, the stations are really few and far between so not very practical for the average Joe.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Thanks Richard...I know there is propane, but again, not as available in some areas. Can be frustrating traveling just to fill your bottles at times where we travel. (note: MT not mentioned on that map, and only a couple places in WY). How many LP or NG vehicles towing RV's are there out there these days? I understand some commercial service trucks and busses, but have not noticed any mainstream folks like ourselves towing with these? Am I missing something or what?

I don't think there are many towing travel trailers at all. It is easier to find EV charging than an Autogas station to fill a vehicle, where the tank is not removable.

The point was about commercial vehicles, and that not all of them use diesel, as was claimed, which is true. That doesn't make Autogas a good choice for RV towing, any more than a heavy commercial truck is a good choice for RV towing.

[KK4YZ]

As far as electric I recall the excitement on this forum when GM announced plans to convert from ICE to electric by 2035.
Now GM and others are delaying investment in EV’s because of reduced demand. I think consumers will have the final say in this transition. My guess is a mix of ICE, hybrid and EV will be with us for a long time.

[pjshier]

...the title of a great Ted Talk. Recommend it.

Saw an article where NY decided to keep diesel garbage trucks/snow plows for now. Quite the innovative idea - hang a snow plow on the front of a garbage truck when needed. Wish we were doing that here; record 24 hour accumulation for Anchorage, but still nothing compared to lake-effect areas or even Juneau, where I lived for 18 years. Roads were a mess.

Doesn't mean E-trucks are bad. In the NY case, the tech didn't support the use case when it came to plowing. Apparently, they are sticking with diesel based on range and power needed rather than strictly MPG? No doubt EV garbage trucks will be back in service at some point, and maybe still are, but not for dual duty yet.

At any rate - check out the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk

[jcl]

Originally Posted by KK4YZ

As far as electric I recall the excitement on this forum when GM announced plans to convert from ICE to electric by 2035.
Now GM and others are delaying investment in EV’s because of reduced demand. I think consumers will have the final say in this transition. My guess is a mix of ICE, hybrid and EV will be with us for a long time.

We need to distinguish between reduced EV demand (as compared to manufacturer's own sales forecasts) and reduced demand for EVs from GM (and Ford, for that matter).

EV sales in North America are up significantly, with the sales of BEVs in Q3 coming in 50% above those of the prior year. EV demand is obviously up. Just not for legacy automakers, many of whom are struggling to complete with EVs.

Those EV sales in the US are still only 7% or so of the market. Where we live, EV sales in 2023 have now reached 21% of the light duty vehicle market. We are all just at different points on the adoption curve, but yes, I agree that there will be a mix of vehicles for a long time.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by NevadaGeo

If I had money to look at a newer tow vehicle, I'd give Dave Smith in Kellogg, Idaho a call and bend their ear about a well, used trade in. Let someone else take the "off the show room floor" hit.
Anywhere in the west you'll see a "Dave Smith" license plate holder. I think they have pretty good prices.
https://www.davesmith.com/featured-vehicles/used.htm

Take your gold panning gear, pan for gold in the river next door when you get there. Maybe find enough gold to pay for your trip.

Lol when I bought mine in the fall of 2016 the local Lithia dealer gave me a better deal..hands down and it was cash…all hype about Dave smith and I live in Billings

[xpcdoojk]

Originally Posted by jcl

My last ICE vehicle purchase decision was for towing other than Airstreams. Lots of towing, thanks, just not with an Airstream. Other trailers function pretty much the same, in that you hook them up and go. And the diesel, gasoline, or natural gas engines being used don't actually know what you are hitched to

It is not uncommon to tow heavy commercial trailers with natural gas (we have natural gas stations here, and the last company I worked for developed, sold, and supported natural gas engines ranging from Ford pickups (we supplied the factory option on F series) through vocational applications, to class 8 (Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo, and others were our OEM partners) and over that size (rail, and off road heavy equipment). Lots of those Class 8 trucks pulled semi trailers, usually with a LNG tank, and HPDI fuel system.

I wouldn't choose a natural gas engine for towing an Airstream, but then I wouldn't choose a heavy duty commercial truck either. And note that the comment was, after all, directed at a post that said all heavy commercial trucks use diesel, a claim that was patently false.

I drove past a natural gas filling station both ways about a month and a half ago. There were at least 10 “pumps” there was no convenience store associated, there was no restaurant associated, there were no bathrooms, it looked fairly new. it was open, but it had no onsite employees and both times I drove past it in the middle of the day on a weekday, there were zero vehicles getting filled. I am guessing the state of Arkansas subsidized it. Hopefully, at least occassionally a vehicle stopped there for a fill, but I can’t prove that..

JC

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by xpcdoojk

I drove past a natural gas filling station both ways about a month and a half ago. There were at least 10 “pumps” there was no convenience store associated, there was no restaurant associated, there were no bathrooms, it looked fairly new. it was open, but it had no onsite employees and both times I drove past it in the middle of the day on a weekday, there were zero vehicles getting filled. I am guessing the state of Arkansas subsidized it. Hopefully, at least occassionally a vehicle stopped there for a fill, but I can’t prove that..

JC

When I was in CDL training for a job driving semis I spend about a month driving a CNG truck. We filled at pumps in traditional truck stops, complete with all the usual amenities. Often times you wouldn't know there were natural gas pumps if you weren't looking for them. They are no where near as common as gasoline or diesel pumps, but they're out there.