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Old 04-02-2018, 01:43 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
No, it doesn’t wash. Check the NOx, and particulates.
I understand the NOx and Particulates are more (I think 30%?) per gallon.

DO NOT ROAST ME ! I still have all the "crap" on mine.

I was throwing out for those people that HAVE taken it off and are significantly higher milage. Does the 25-30% better milage wash the 30% extra NOx? I would have think it would somehow?

Older diesels are a no way!
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:47 PM   #62
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Diesel exhaust has been identified as a carcinogen.
So has my steak sometimes

I hear ya, thanks
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:59 PM   #63
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And my coffee!

Though I wouldn't have it any other way.

More coffee, diesel, and steaks to you all!
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Old 04-02-2018, 02:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by wulfraat View Post
And it, um, destroys the environment and clean air us humans need to survive ...
And can result in huge fines. But most people I know have at least an EGR delete.
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Old 04-02-2018, 02:06 PM   #65
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And can result in huge fines. But most people I know have at least an EGR delete.


Thats an interesting point, I hear all the time about those that have stripped the emissions off but, have never heard of a fine?

How do they get caught?
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Old 04-02-2018, 02:16 PM   #66
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Thats an interesting point, I hear all the time about those that have stripped the emissions off but, have never heard of a fine?

How do they get caught?
Never knew anyone who got caught but the mechanic in my family won’t have anything to do with deletes. We’ve been into diesels since waaaayyy back when and have worked on everything from Escort diesels to the bigger stuff. I understand why people take stuff off. It gets pretty expensive to fix.

Don’t kid yourself, gas trucks are complicated and expensive to fix too!
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:56 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
I understand the NOx and Particulates are more (I think 30%?) per gallon.

DO NOT ROAST ME ! I still have all the "crap" on mine.

I was throwing out for those people that HAVE taken it off and are significantly higher milage. Does the 25-30% better milage wash the 30% extra NOx? I would have think it would somehow?

Older diesels are a no way!
NOx and CO2 are not comparable. You can't just trade one for the other and call it a wash. They behave differently, and have different effects. Looking at N20, one of the three NOx gases produced, it is reportedly 298 times as bad as CO2 in terms of the greenhouse effect. NO2, another one, is a primary cause of smog. Add water, and you get nitric acid.

In terms of pollutants emitted, it is tough to get realistic numbers, because they vary so much from test to test, and from the dyno to the real world..

If we look at the BMW X5, which is available with both a diesel and a gasoline engine, we see that the tested NOx for the diesel is from double to several times that of the otherwise identical gasoline model, and that is for a late model X5 that is meeting the Euro 6 standard. The diesel is a lower hp model, so it has lower performance in this case, despite the higher NOx. Note that Euro 6 allows higher NOx emissions for diesels that gasoline models, because it is too tough for the diesels to meet the gasoline standard for NOx.

Now the kicker. Even vehicles that meet the test standards, don't appear to do so all the time. Many models have been found to emit 40-50 times the standard depending on the usage (cold starts, pulling hills under load, etc). This doesn't mean the manufacturers are cheating necessarily, just that the tests don't replicate the real world. Diesel emissions control technology is relatively immature compared to gasoline engine emissions controls. The add on devices break more often (or freeze...), they cost more to fix, and they will generally need years more development until it all levels out across the two platforms, if ever. Nobody takes the emission controls off a gasoline engine these days, they work fine for most. But there are still some who will remove diesel emission controls, even knowing the downside. Whether one gets caught depends a lot on where the vehicle is licensed, and what inspection procedures are in place.
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
NOx and CO2 are not comparable. You can't just trade one for the other and call it a wash. They behave differently, and have different effects. Looking at N20, one of the three NOx gases produced, it is reportedly 298 times as bad as CO2 in terms of the greenhouse effect. NO2, another one, is a primary cause of smog. Add water, and you get nitric acid.



In terms of pollutants emitted, it is tough to get realistic numbers, because they vary so much from test to test, and from the dyno to the real world..



If we look at the BMW X5, which is available with both a diesel and a gasoline engine, we see that the tested NOx for the diesel is from double to several times that of the otherwise identical gasoline model, and that is for a late model X5 that is meeting the Euro 6 standard. The diesel is a lower hp model, so it has lower performance in this case, despite the higher NOx. Note that Euro 6 allows higher NOx emissions for diesels that gasoline models, because it is too tough for the diesels to meet the gasoline standard for NOx.



Now the kicker. Even vehicles that meet the test standards, don't appear to do so all the time. Many models have been found to emit 40-50 times the standard depending on the usage (cold starts, pulling hills under load, etc). This doesn't mean the manufacturers are cheating necessarily, just that the tests don't replicate the real world. Diesel emissions control technology is relatively immature compared to gasoline engine emissions controls. The add on devices break more often (or freeze...), they cost more to fix, and they will generally need years more development until it all levels out across the two platforms, if ever. Nobody takes the emission controls off a gasoline engine these days, they work fine for most. But there are still some who will remove diesel emission controls, even knowing the downside. Whether one gets caught depends a lot on where the vehicle is licensed, and what inspection procedures are in place.


Thanks for the information.

I do have some knowledge between the NOx and CO2 differences. Especially regarding human health.

I have read several articles lately that stated diesels (new) were “equivalent” to gas now in terms of TOTAL emissions. I also found this surprising. I also understand test results are subjective.

I like hearing others perspective. Thanks for sharing!

Dan
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:54 PM   #69
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More of a chance that a gas engine will go 200,000 miles with only 2 spark plus changes vs a diesel with possibilities of injector, pump and glow plugs needing changed at super high costs. Initial cost does play a factor. You can buy a lot of gas for the $10k more for a diesel. Again, as been said a thousand times, to pull any AS, you don't NEED a diesel, you WANT a diesel, and that as good an excuse as any to buy one.
You forgot turbo replacement.
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:44 AM   #70
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And it, um, destroys the environment and clean air us humans need to survive ...
What about the Polar Bears too...........

Best regards and Safe travels
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:57 AM   #71
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Agreed, the newer ones can get up into the 20’s mpg if you take all the emissions crap off. Problem is, it voids the warranty.
Concur.

We have gotten 22 + mpg running free. I would say pretty good mileage for a 8800 lb. truck in my opinion. 4x4, 4 door, long bed, and canopy. All emissions left alone. 100k drive train warranty is more important to us than maybe couple more mpg.

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Old 04-17-2018, 04:32 PM   #72
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Where do you get a $40 oil change on a diesel. The last Super Duty I owned - let’s see 12 quarts of Rotela or was it 14? That big Motorcraft oil filter as well!
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:38 PM   #73
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Aside from diesel repairs being far more expensive than gas, I've heard horror stories about diesel repairs taking a long time. Like someone rolling into a Ford/Chevy/Dodge dealer with a diesel issue and there being no mechanic available for a week or more.

Any diesel owners seeing that?
I had that happen once. I went into a smallish Ford dealership because the service engine light was on and the code indicated a turbo problem. There was no diesel mechanic working that day. The truck was running fine and fortunately it wasn't an emergency.
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:22 PM   #74
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Even if you change your own oil on a diesel with the cheapest oil and filter, you are looking at $60 minimum and $80 normal for 15 qts. Add fuel filters and urea, and you are at $100, if you did it yourself. Go to a dealer and look at $250, at a lube joint, $200. Some say they get paid oil changes for free. Nothing is free, the dealer got you on the sale of the vehicle, whatever. I can still get my oil changed for $20 +2 additional qts at any lube joint or even any Ford dealer with anyone's coupon. Adds up over time. I now have 178,000 miles on my gas V 10.

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Old 04-17-2018, 06:36 PM   #75
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Look

Watch on YouTube, “Top 5 Pros and cons of gas vs. Diesel”
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:00 PM   #76
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Very few diesel owners actually keep their vehicles past their warranty and for sure 95% sell when they get 150k. Reason being bad fuel, even with moisture sensor, injectors and pump repairs cost more than a new gas rebuild.

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Old 04-17-2018, 07:42 PM   #77
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To start, true family story.
When my oldest son was on his last year in college, I offered him Mercedes diesel as I already bought another diesel.
My son declined -saying "Mercedes is for old people".
So fast forward 6 months he comes home for Christmas and plans to do some local runs with his HS friends.
He drives sporty Mitsubishi 3000 at the time, so he ask me if he can borrow my diesel for Saturday outing with friends.
I let him take the car on condition that he will fill it up.
So next come Sunday morning and taking family to church in the Mercedes, I noticed that the tank is only 1/2 full. I ask my son if he did fill it up, he's answer was "Yes, in the afternoon before I went to see my friends"
Car was making 500 miles on tank.....
So anyway, diesel makes lot of sense for some, not so for others.
If you don't DIY and don't have trusted and knowledgeable diesel mechanic, DON'T BUY DIESEL.
It is rare powerplant in US and uneducated mechanics will destroy your vehicle and your bank account.
I know diesels and thanks to reviews like above, I can buy them cheap.
So for years I've been driving Mercedes diesels, when most of them sold for higher price than I bought them for. That is due to fact that I imported diesel sedans from East Cost to California, who did not sold new diesel cars for last 20 + years.
Now I bought new F350 diesel last year?
Is the $8000 up front cost making economical sense? Probably not as after driving 7000 miles last year across the country, now the truck sits for a month at the time.
But for me it is mental thing. Would I have gaser and plan to take it 600 miles to friends and family in California - I would ask "is it worth spending $600 on fuel?"
But $300 for diesel makes the decision much easier. Meaning I WANT to drive diesel.
That beside the fact that my newer sedan makes 600 trip on less than 15 gallons of fuel.
Did I mention that I love diesel torque that takes all freeway grades on overdrive?
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:58 PM   #78
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Where do you get a $40 oil change on a diesel. The last Super Duty I owned - let’s see 12 quarts of Rotela or was it 14? That big Motorcraft oil filter as well!
In the original calc, that's $40 extra for diesel. That's what the Service Mgr quoted in Oneida, NY. I wish my oil changes were under $100. All were add ons, but made up in mileage costs. In the last few weeks in TX, regular gas is creeping up faster than diesel.

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Old 04-17-2018, 11:00 PM   #79
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I've had 5 Chevy dealers change oil 7 times at around $100 each. With no extra charge for filling all fluids.

Maybe a Ford thing?

And at 178,000 miles, you could have saved over $4,400 in fuel costs. (178,000 x .025).

I am convinced diesel is cheaper. Operating and trade-in over purchase. And most vehicles are traded in by 150,000 miles.

Mileage may vary,

DuraJohn
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:06 PM   #80
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I get 12.9 average when I tow my Airstream burning gasoline.
I live in California and the last trip was,

Total Trip Cost
$131.92
Distance 544 mi
Fuel Used 41.47 gal

Using your fuel mpg of 15, if I had a diesel then
Total Trip Cost would have been $126.63
Fuel Used 35.67 gal

So I would have saved $5.29 or about .0097 cents per mile.

You know the additional cost of running a diesel much better than I do.

You state
$.045 saving per mile for diesel.
I do not see it.

Best wishes,
Mark
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