Gas verses Diesel Tow Vehicle

[SeaLevel]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

It has MOST to do with it. Hopefully you will read this.

This should help you out:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque4.htm

Regards

The article states:

"Once again, torque lets you do the work; horsepower lets you do the work quickly. Horsepower lets you accelerate when you're already moving and pulling something heavy behind you."

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque3.htm

That makes it sound like horsepower has more to do with speed than torque does.

As far as gas versus diesel - IMO, gasoline smells bad, but no where near as bad as diesel.

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by SeaLevel

The article states:

"Once again, torque lets you do the work; horsepower lets you do the work quickly. Horsepower lets you accelerate when you're already moving and pulling something heavy behind you."

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque3.htm

That makes it sound like horsepower has more to do with speed than torque does.

As far as gas versus diesel - IMO, gasoline smells bad, but no where near as bad as diesel.

Read further...
"What's the verdict? In the end, all the evidence points to torque as being more important than horsepower when it comes to towing. Why? The power at low-end rpm provided by high levels of torque lets you move huge loads without much effort. As stated before, some diesel trucks produce twice as much torque as they do horsepower at near-idle RPM levels -- meaning that they can start pulling something like a trailer or a boat with ease."

[SeaLevel]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

Read further...
"What's the verdict? In the end, all the evidence points to torque as being more important than horsepower when it comes to towing. Why? The power at low-end rpm provided by high levels of torque lets you move huge loads without much effort. As stated before, some diesel trucks produce twice as much torque as they do horsepower at near-idle RPM levels -- meaning that they can start pulling something like a trailer or a boat with ease."

I thought the question was about speed, not the effort of getting off the line.

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by SeaLevel

I thought the question was about speed, not the effort of getting off the line.

Above when I said it was a "torque difference" was referring to pulling a hill. By itself a vehicle w/HP has the advantage. TOWING up hill (what we are discussing) a vehicle with torque has the advantage.

[r carl]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

See, this is one of many reasons why I’m in no hurry to switch to diesel. Seriously, why risk this kind of baloney while traveling?

Makes you wonder why gasoline doesn't have those fuel problems.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

Above when I said it was a "torque difference" was referring to pulling a hill. By itself a vehicle w/HP has the advantage. TOWING up hill (what we are discussing) a vehicle with torque has the advantage.

That is only true as long as the speed up the hill is not important to you. Speed is a function of hp, not torque, and it doesn’t matter whether you are running solo or towing a heavy load.

Can’t wait until we get past the hp vs torque confusion, so we can get on to torque rise.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

This should help you out:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque4.htm

That is an embarrassingly bad article, full of misconceptions.

Something to think about: engine torque doesn’t start you off from rest, rim pull (wheel torque) does. There is also a transmission and a final drive ratio in that scenario. If you need more torque, use a lower gear. Try multiplying hp with gear ratios, and let us know how that works out.

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by jcl

That is only true as long as the speed up the hill is not important to you. Speed is a function of hp, not torque, and it doesn’t matter whether you are running solo or towing a heavy load.

Can’t wait until we get past the hp vs torque confusion

Most people would rather do 55mph up hill than 30mph IMO, judging by the look on their faces

HP=TORQUE x RPM / 5252 (the greater the torque the greater the acceleration) further explained by (Acceleration = Force (TORQUE) / Mass)
If you want faster acceleration you need more TORQUE

Finally, Torque absolutely matters if towing. The greater the torque the easier the pull. "..when asked to choose between horsepower or torque, the answer would be torque in the case of towing because it is better for towing trucks to have torque since the power at low-end rpm that high levels of torque provide can easier move and accelerate huge loads. There are even some diesel trucks that produce twice as much as torque than horsepower to enable them to easier pull things such as trailers and boats."

I am also glad the confusion is over

[pteck]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

Above when I said it was a "torque difference" was referring to pulling a hill. By itself a vehicle w/HP has the advantage. TOWING up hill (what we are discussing) a vehicle with torque has the advantage.

Sorry, but unequivocally wrong. This is the very misnomer that diesel groupies waving the torque flag misunderstands.

Fact is a car that makes more HP, is because it's typically making MORE torque at a HIGHER rpm. Diesel torque bands fall way off at higher rpms, which handicaps their ability to make big HP. Said another way, they make a lot of torque down low, but they make very little torque up high. Gas motors can make torque low, high, and everywhere in between, especially when turbo'd.

Mathematically, HP is a product of two variable. Torque and RPM. Logically, the most HP comes from the product of those 2 variables being as large as possible. If you take a big torque number but multiply it by a small rpm number, you can understand that hp might be low (classic diesel motor). Take a small torque number and multiply that by a large rpm number, and hp might still only be marginal (classic gas motor). Today's advanced gas motors with many technologies thrown at it (turbo, variable valve timing, etc.) can make solid torque, across a wide rpm band, and to higher rpms.

To dispel the torque myth - HP is what does the work to pull loads up a hill. NOT torque alone, without RPM.

Did you know a 400 lb fat man, standing on the end of a 1 ft long wrench, makes 400 ft-lbs of torque? Heck add another fat man for 800 ft-lbs. Yet 10 fat men won't pull any significant load up a hill.

Originally Posted by DBinSD

2017 6.7L cummins is 385HP @2800RPM & 900 lb-ft (Torque) @ 1700RPM

newer is even more.

You know what's funny about this. The reality is that most any 385hp GAS motor will blow the doors off this big boy diesel towing a load up hill, provided it has the chassis and gearing. Regardless of torque (we already know it makes enough torque at the necessary rpm to make 385 HP!) Because the gasser will likely weigh quite a bit less.

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by pteck

Sorry, but unequivocally wrong. This is the very misnomer that diesel groupies waving the torque flag misunderstands.

Fact is a car that makes more HP, is because it's typically making MORE torque at a HIGHER rpm. Diesel torque bands fall way off at higher rpms, which handicaps their ability to make big HP. Said another way, they make a lot of torque down low, but they make very little torque up high. Gas motors can make torque low, high, and everywhere in between, especially when turbo'd.

Mathematically, HP is a product of two variable. Torque and RPM. Logically, the most HP comes from the product of those 2 variables being as large as possible. If you take a big torque number but multiply it by a small rpm number, you can understand that hp might be low (classic diesel motor). Take a small torque number and multiply that by a large rpm number, and hp might still only be marginal (classic gas motor). Today's advanced gas motors with many technologies thrown at it (turbo, variable valve timing, etc.) can make solid torque, across a wide rpm band, and to higher rpms.

To dispel the torque myth - HP is what does the work to pull loads up a hill. NOT torque alone, without RPM.



You know what's funny about this. The reality is that most any 385hp GAS motor will blow the doors off this big boy diesel towing a load up hill, provided it has the chassis and gearing. Regardless of torque (we already know it makes enough torque at the necessary rpm to make 385 HP!) Because the gasser will likely weigh quite a bit less.

You have some studying to do.

I could go into a whole engineering lesson about this, but I’d rather let Jason from Engineering Explained handle that. "So when your car goes, it’s actually the torque that does the moving. More torque means more force you have to either accelerate your car or pull a load with, since torque is Force x distance (aka lb-ft or Newton-Meters). Power is basically how fast you can keep putting out that torque."

Additionally, I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say. Along with ANYTHING that says HP not Torque is what pulls the load up hill.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

You have some studying to do.

I could go into a whole engineering lesson about this, but I’d rather let Jason from Engineering Explained handle that. "So when your car goes, it’s actually the torque that does the moving. More torque means more force you have to either accelerate your car or pull a load with, since torque is Force x distance (aka lb-ft or Newton-Meters). Power is basically how fast you can keep putting out that torque."

Additionally, I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say. Along with ANYTHING that says HP not Torque is what pulls the load up hill.

I'll keep this from being personal. So I'll get straight to the answer. Though I'd encourage you to try to understand what you are studying.

A common easy to understand definition of hp:

One metric horsepower is needed to lift 75 kilograms by 1 metre in 1 second

See how the very meaning of hp is all about weight being lifted. With a time component?

Sounds a bit like towing a load up a hill in a timed situation no? I'll even attach a picture.




Said another way, I'll expand on my fat man example which I added to an earlier post to help clarify:

Take a 400 lb fat man, standing on the end of a 1 ft long wrench. This makes 400 ft-lbs of torque. Real work is not being done as he just stands.

Now imagine this man jumping up and down on that wrench, perhaps at 2000 time a minute. Now work is being done! Sounds a lot like a big diesel piston going round and round producing work, and in effect HP!

Now take a 200hp man doing the same deed, but jumping 5000 times a minute. That is our gas motor doing little bits of work, but at a lot faster rate. That makes more hp to get that work done!

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by pteck

You know what's funny about this. The reality is that most any 385hp GAS motor will blow the doors off this big boy diesel towing a load up hill, provided it has the chassis and gearing. Regardless of torque (we already know it makes enough torque at the necessary rpm to make 385 HP!) Because the gasser will likely weigh quite a bit less.

I just realized why this type of discussion always becomes circular

Diesel (D) people say TORQUE (T) pulls better (fact it does)

Gassers (G) say Horse Power (HP) is faster (Fact it is)

Given this example:
Two Ram 2500 (similar tow capacity) pulling a 30' trailer. One gas, One Diesel. Long flat stretch with long steep grade after.
D- motoring at 1700rpm and G-accelerates slightly anticipating the grade passing (HP) the D.
As grade increases D maintains speed/RPM (T) while G increases RPM (HP) and must eventually downshift/increase RPM or slow due to lack of pull (T) while D continues up grade (T) eventually passing G unless possibly G has foot through the floorboard and RPM's screaming (HP) where the grade eventually will slow it.
So who was better

Is a gasser faster, YES!
What works less hard pulling load? Diesel
Which is better for passing? Gasser
Which is better for steep long grades? Diesel

Neither will be "better" for the other person as they chose what was the BEST FIT for their equipment!

Just me 2cents

Travel safe guys!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say.

Post 243 in this thread. Same vehicle, same weight, same trailer. Diesel had less hp, more torque. Gas engine went up the hill faster, with more hp, but less torque. Look up the published reference in that post to see the figures, don’t just trust the post.

If the gas engine vehicle had slowed down to wait for the diesel, it would have been an even easier pull for it.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

Additionally, I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say. Along with ANYTHING that says HP not Torque is what pulls the load up hill.

You must have missed my earlier posts of diesel vs gas case studies. It doesn't get more apples to apples real than this.

Round 1:
Nissan Titan XD in diesel (310 hp / 555 tq) vs. Nissan Titan XD gas (390hp / 394tq) towing same 10,600lb trailer.
Gas is over 40 seconds faster to the top of the hill despite 161 less torque
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2081251

Round 2:
GMC Canyon diesel (181hp/369tq) vs. Chevy Colorado gas (308hp/275tq) towing same 6,100lb trailer.
Gas wins again, over 50 seconds faster to the top
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2082100

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by pteck

You must have missed my earlier posts of diesel vs gas case studies. It doesn't get more apples to apples real than this.

Round 1:
Nissan Titan XD in diesel (310 hp / 555 tq) vs. Nissan Titan XD gas (390hp / 394tq) towing same 10,600lb trailer.
Gas is over 40 seconds faster to the top of the hill despite 161 less torque
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2081251

Round 2:
GMC Canyon diesel (181hp/369tq) vs. Chevy Colorado gas (308hp/275tq) towing same 6,100lb trailer.
Gas wins again, over 50 seconds faster to the top
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2082100

I saw those.

Most Diesel people towing trailers are talking about full size trucks. Take a Ram 2500 Hemi vs Cummins or a full size Ford gas vs diesel. These trucks have significant HP to Torque range differences yet similar towing capacity.

[SilverGate]

Originally Posted by SilverGate

Our 2006 F-250 4×2 Crew Cab Super Duty XLT diesel truck is a thriving star that has dependably pulled our Airstream trailer to our favorite beach, mountain and desert campsites in San Diego County for the past 10 years, has only 22,728 miles on it and is still going strong!

A feeling of confidence is important to me when towing up and over our mountains to get to our favorite desert campsites!

Breaking news:

Just sold our 12 year old F-250 Super Duty diesel truck for $21,000.

(Retained 50% of its original value!)

See the article, "Diesel Truck Residual Values Rise With Mileage."

Now back to your regularly scheduled program with no further interruptions, except for the passing of the popcorn.

[majorairhead]

Way too much fun reading this thread.

Diesel guy moving to gasser cuz his diesel went kaput to the tune of 6,000 dollars.

Gasser dude moving to diesel cuz gasser suckin' too much fuel, and can't pull to the top of Everest.

C'mon, everybody knows each has it's merits.

Can't say for a minute the diesel ain't badarse, and can tow a sheetton of weight, and the gasser just goes and goes, with an oil change every once in a while.

Torque and Horse and Horse and Torque.
Horse and Torque and Torque and Horse.
Torque and Horse and Horse and Torque.

hmmmmm.....a HORSE is a HORSE of COURSE OF COURSE if it's TORQUE and TORQUE is a TORQUE of COURSE if it's HORSE it's the TORQUE of COURSE unless the HORSE is the TORQUE of MR. ED.........awwwww never mind.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Yea, the F150EB has plenty torque; I agree. I loved my F150 4x4 EB for pulling my 25' AS's while I logged 125K miles on her over 5 years. I see many folks here also pull larger AS's. But, I will say the F250 diesel provides unquestionable advantages over the F150EB for pulling larger AS's. The larger size, the automatic engine braking, and effortless power of pulling up/down/around even in hot weather while in automatic cruise mode is no comparison to the F150EB. I had my F150EB heat up a few times going up steep grades at highway speeds (like others have mentioned). I also had the brakes smoke, even manually downshifting when coming down long steep grade if I was not real careful. In 9 months of owning the F250, I have logged 25K miles;14K towing the AS. The driving sensation is not even close to what I experienced with my F150....and I loved my F150. If you have not tried the it, you should. Likely the F250 6.2gasser is a great truck also...without the diesel issues many have mentioned they "worry" about.

To second the motion.
I to used a 2012 F-150 with the 3.5 Ecoboost HD tow platinum. I towed our 30' International with it for 3 years and loved the truck. However I had the exact same experiences as you did. I could repeat your post word for word. the only thing I would add is that I also didn't like the feeling of the occasional tail wagging the dog. So when we got our 2017 30' Classic I decided to also upgrade to a F-250 Diesel in a large part because with the F-150 we were constantly overloaded. We rarely come across people going back the other way.
I will never go back to a lighter gas truck as long as I am towing period.
There is a reason why heavy trucks and construction equipment are driven exclusively by diesel engines. It isn't because astute businessman are hell bent on throwing money away.

[Tater]

I am yawning. Bottom line. Get what you want. Nobody really cares what you tow with and you can justify your choice if you like but if you're happy then just enjoy it and most importantly camp as much as you can towing the best way you can.

[moosetags]

I wholeheartedly agree with the above. Airstreams are about camping and enjoying life to the fullest. As long as it does the job for you, the Airstream's tow vehicle is a minor component. Just get out there and camp.

Brian