|
|
03-28-2018, 06:48 PM
|
#241
|
Rivet Master
2007 27' International CCD FB
San Diego
, California
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,121
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troutboy
Pteck, so in your opinion then, there isn’t really a situation where a diesel is preferred as a TV? There are gas and diesel options for any TT situation? It’s more of a personal preference?
|
It might seem it, but I'm not against diesels. They certainly have their pros, and cons just like any motor/drivetrain. There's no blanket architecture or quality that makes one absolutely better than the other in all cases. And sometimes, the right answer comes down to the individual, their needs, and preferences. To boil it down to "diesel is more better", is absolutely shortsighted and the way some individuals use "torque" shows they don't even fundamentally understand the term.
What I'm saying is that each powertrain, whether gas or diesel, should be evaluated on its own merits. I'll agree, some gas engines are light on torque, especially at low rpms. This is where it's important to understand peak torque rpm, and overall gearing for the platform. To jcl's point, turbo motors typically have more midrange punch. But not all turbo motors are the same, with some being smaller and weaker, and hence thirstier with load. Most manufacturers have big naturally aspirated V8s (5.6L++). These bruisers have ample torque and power. But at the same time, not all are pleasant when accessing their peak hp. Some sound like a blender at 4k+ rpm which causes some to think diesel, whereas other manufacturers mills run like a fine sewing machine.
Diesels come with some demerits too. I always find it funny when individuals claim "engine braking" yet don't realize their smaller diesels are not outfitted with any real engine braking. Whereas any gas motor will have legitimate compression engine braking. And there's the weight penalty, DEF, blah blah.
Yet for some, diesel is a great answer, especially for those that don't need to dual purpose their vehicles, are under tow majority of the time, and can afford the big boy 450hp+ and 800ft-lbs+ diesels. Anything less, and that ecoboost 3.5L or big block NA V8 with 400hp+ and far less weight will beat it to the top of the hill. No joke.
And probably evaluated along with the platform.
|
|
|
03-28-2018, 07:02 PM
|
#242
|
Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,592
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD
Could that be most new trucks have a turbo diesel?
|
If you mean 3/4 and 1 ton, then yes, many do. Not many N/A diesels around these days. But that was my point. Many of the comments about attributes of those diesel engines, claimed to be diesel benefits, are more accurately described as turbo benefits.
And if you look at smaller diesels, you will see more power out of the gas versions of those trucks. The gas versions, in the half tons, for instance, do compare to the diesels in the same trucks in many aspects.
|
|
|
03-28-2018, 07:32 PM
|
#243
|
Rivet Master
2007 27' International CCD FB
San Diego
, California
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,121
|
As another comparison of diesel vs gas. Midsize trucks towing 6,100lbs.
2017 GMC Canyon diesel vs. 2017 Chevy Colorado V6 gas
Duramax Diesel 2.8L (181hp/369ft-lbs) vs. Gas 3.6L (308hp/275 ft-lbs)
4,488 lbs vs 3,936 curb weight respectively
To the top of the Ike Guantlet:
9:11.50 minutes vs 8:18.92 minutes.
Gasoline for the quicker time. No turbo necessary.
Because horsepower. And weight.
|
|
|
03-28-2018, 07:46 PM
|
#244
|
Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,592
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck
As another comparison of diesel vs gas. Midsize trucks towing 6,100lbs.
2017 GMC Canyon diesel vs. 2017 Chevy Colorado V6 gas
Duramax Diesel 2.8L (181hp/369ft-lbs) vs. Gas 3.6L (308hp/275 ft-lbs)
4,488 lbs vs 3,936 curb weight respectively
To the top of the Ike Guantlet:
9:11.50 minutes vs 8:18.92 minutes.
Gasoline for the quicker time. No turbo necessary.
Because horsepower. And weight.
|
But just to compare two engines of similar displacement, the 2.8 diesel with 181 hp and 369 ft-lbs comes up short on output when compared to the Ecoboost 2.7 litre with 325 hp and 400 ft-lbs. It isn’t about the fuel type.
|
|
|
03-28-2018, 08:46 PM
|
#245
|
2 Rivet Member
2016 30' Classic
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 20
|
Love these forms and all the chest thumping about how powerful MY truck is!
Buy a diesel so you can tow a trailer up a 6 mile 6% grade faster than a gas.
Diesel at 60 MPH thats 6 minutes.
Gas at 45 MPH thats 8 minutes.
2 minutes. Wow! Been there done that $$$$$$$$$$$$- not anymore.
__________________
2016 30' Classic
2017 F250 Crewcab 6.2L Gas
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 11:48 AM
|
#246
|
4 Rivet Member
1972 31' Excella 500
2017 30' Classic
Grapeview
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 456
|
[QUOTE=jcl;2081973]I would spend more time thinking about turbocharged vs naturally aspirated, than gas vs diesel. A forced induction engine won’t lose as much power at higher altitudes, and can develop its power at a lower rpm. My twin turbo 3 litre gas engine (not an Ecoboost) hit peak torque at 1300 rpm and held it. Great tow vehicle engine.
So many of the comments on diesel characteristics on this forum are really talking about turbocharged engine characteristics. Many current generation diesel owners have never seen a naturally aspirated Diesel engine.[/QUOTE]
And how would you know this? Speak for yourself on this claim. The thread is Gas vs. Diesel. This to mean open season to any type of engine as long as gas or diesel is being used. I think it is great that you are happy w/your 3.0L twin turbo gas engine, more power to you, not sure what you are towing or have towed? However it appears it works for you. Personally I do not care who tow's w/what. It's their money not mine.
What is of interest for me and I presume many in this thread are the opinions and experiences of both sides of gas and fuel being used as w/the engine types being used. It is a discussion between users of both. Me, I spent the better part of my 40 years towing w/big block gas never having issue. Last truck for us in this life, we are extremely happy w/we have now and that works for us.
Best regards and safe travels
__________________
Scott & Liz
2017 Classic
2016 RAM 3500 6.7
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 12:03 PM
|
#247
|
4 Rivet Member
1972 31' Excella 500
2017 30' Classic
Grapeview
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 456
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJim
Love these forms and all the chest thumping about how powerful MY truck is!
Buy a diesel so you can tow a trailer up a 6 mile 6% grade faster than a gas.
Diesel at 60 MPH thats 6 minutes.
Gas at 45 MPH thats 8 minutes.
2 minutes. Wow! Been there done that $$$$$$$$$$$$- not anymore.
|
You may be interested in the 2 minutes, we care nothing of the 2 minutes. "Chest thumping", interesting perception on your part.
For us we like going 600 miles between fuel stops. My wife wants to know if this chest thumping?
Best regards and safe travels
__________________
Scott & Liz
2017 Classic
2016 RAM 3500 6.7
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 12:45 PM
|
#248
|
Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,210
|
We don't really want to drive more than 300 miles in a day, and we have to stop anyway to take our pup out for walks, so yeah, saying one likes to go 600 miles between fuel stops is kinda like chest thumping.
That said, the potential number of miles that can be traveled on a single tank of fuel is a likely difference between gas & diesel. If we were evaluating a vehicle we wouldn't care much about that, but it's a difference that should be noted.
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 12:56 PM
|
#249
|
Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,592
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbowman
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
I would spend more time thinking about turbocharged vs naturally aspirated, than gas vs diesel. A forced induction engine won’t lose as much power at higher altitudes, and can develop its power at a lower rpm. My twin turbo 3 litre gas engine (not an Ecoboost) hit peak torque at 1300 rpm and held it. Great tow vehicle engine.
So many of the comments on diesel characteristics on this forum are really talking about turbocharged engine characteristics. Many current generation diesel owners have never seen a naturally aspirated Diesel engine.
|
And how would you know this? Speak for yourself on this claim. The thread is Gas vs. Diesel. This to mean open season to any type of engine as long as gas or diesel is being used. ....
What is of interest for me and I presume many in this thread are the opinions and experiences of both sides of gas and fuel being used as w/the engine types being used. It is a discussion between users of both.
|
Sorry, I thought it was clear I was speaking for myself. Aren't any non-referenced statements here simply opinions? In my case, my comment was based on over three decades in the business, from an independent garage, to a Ford dealer, to a diesel engine distributor, to a company developing alternate fuel (NG) versions of Cummins and other engines. In the distributor role, I didn't sell many N/A diesels, but there were some. Usually a 3208 in a delivery van.
Perhaps I should have said many current generation diesel owners haven't driven a naturally aspirated diesel engine for comparison.
You wanted opinions and experiences about both gas and diesel engines. I simply said that many comments (from observation here) are confusing the issue of gas engines compared to diesel engines by not acknowledging the forced induction vs naturally aspirated characteristics. When someone goes from a naturally aspirated gas engine to a turbocharged diesel engine, and raves about the torque coming in at a lower rpm, they are often not acknowledging the contribution of the turbocharger in that experience.
I think it is interesting when people comment about an experience with a turbocharged gasoline engine with high torque at low rpm and call it "diesel-like" torque.
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 01:53 PM
|
#250
|
Rivet Master
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer)
, Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,670
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
No it isn't. I have plenty of "engine braking" with my gasoline engine and have had no trouble towing our 28' Airstream up and down over the Rockies and any other mountain range we've encountered. I appreciate and respect that you enjoy driving your diesel-powered rig. That's awesome, especially given what it costs to get into one. However, don't try to tell me the rig I'm happy with is somehow insufficient to the need when I already know for a fact that it does the job admirably, under every condition we've thrown at it for over four years.
|
Yea, the F150EB has plenty torque; I agree. I loved my F150 4x4 EB for pulling my 25' AS's while I logged 125K miles on her over 5 years. I see many folks here also pull larger AS's. But, I will say the F250 diesel provides unquestionable advantages over the F150EB for pulling larger AS's. The larger size, the automatic engine braking, and effortless power of pulling up/down/around even in hot weather while in automatic cruise mode is no comparison to the F150EB. I had my F150EB heat up a few times going up steep grades at highway speeds (like others have mentioned). I also had the brakes smoke, even manually downshifting when coming down long steep grade if I was not real careful. In 9 months of owning the F250, I have logged 25K miles;14K towing the AS. The driving sensation is not even close to what I experienced with my F150....and I loved my F150. If you have not tried the it, you should. Likely the F250 6.2gasser is a great truck also...without the diesel issues many have mentioned they "worry" about.
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road! 2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:03 PM
|
#251
|
Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,210
|
When the time comes to replace our RAM 1500 we will certainly look at 3/4 ton trucks because of higher load capacity. At that time we’ll also evaluate engine options on vehicles configured for towing. That’ll be fun!
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:03 PM
|
#252
|
Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJim
Love these forms and all the chest thumping about how powerful MY truck is!
Buy a diesel so you can tow a trailer up a 6 mile 6% grade faster than a gas.
Diesel at 60 MPH thats 6 minutes.
Gas at 45 MPH thats 8 minutes.
2 minutes. Wow! Been there done that $$$$$$$$$$$$- not anymore.
|
If the 385 hp gas engine takes longer to get up the hill than a 385 hp Diesel engine that is a driver issue.
__________________
2018 International Serenity 27' FB
Michelin 16” tires
Hensley Arrow hitch
Tow Vehicle: 2020 F-350 6.7L Diesel
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:15 PM
|
#253
|
Rivet Master
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls
, SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59
If the 385 hp gas engine takes longer to get up the hill than a 385 hp Diesel engine that is a driver issue.
|
It would be a torque difference.
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:19 PM
|
#254
|
Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,210
|
Gas verses Diesel Tow Vehicle
We demand automatic engine torque braking horsepower and 900 miles per tank of whatever fuel it burns. Until then, we will keep right on using the “Fred & Barney” method to get up and down the mountains, especially when hitting a tight turn on the downhill side.
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:24 PM
|
#255
|
Rivet Master
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls
, SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
We demand automatic engine torque braking horsepower and 900 miles per tank of whatever fuel it burns. Until then, we will keep right on using the “Fred & Barney” method to get up and down the mountains, especially when hitting a tight turn on the downhill side.
|
You got it!
In the end it is like a carpenter and his tools. A good one that knows his tools well can make anything. One that does not, is severely handicapped with everything.
Be safe !
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:35 PM
|
#256
|
Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD
It would be a torque difference.
|
Torque has NOTHING to do with speed pulling a load steady state up a hill. NOTHING.
__________________
2018 International Serenity 27' FB
Michelin 16” tires
Hensley Arrow hitch
Tow Vehicle: 2020 F-350 6.7L Diesel
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:41 PM
|
#257
|
Rivet Master
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls
, SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59
Torque has NOTHING to do with speed pulling a load steady state up a hill. NOTHING.
|
You should look up the difference between the two when pulling load, especially up hill.
One works significantly less hard.
I’ll let you figure out which one it is.
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 04:55 PM
|
#258
|
Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
|
HP tells you speed up the hill. TQ only tells you if you’ll make it.
Neither one is important today as nearly all TVs have 300/300 power (HP/TQ).
Might as well argue paint color, for its importance.
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 05:00 PM
|
#259
|
Rivet Master
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls
, SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover
Neither one is important today as nearly all TVs have 300/300 power (HP/TQ).
|
2017 6.7L cummins is 385HP @2800RPM & 900 lb-ft (Torque) @ 1700RPM
newer is even more.
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
|
|
|
03-29-2018, 05:15 PM
|
#260
|
Rivet Master
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls
, SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59
Torque has NOTHING to do with speed pulling a load steady state up a hill. NOTHING.
|
It has MOST to do with it. Hopefully you will read this.
This should help you out:
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque4.htm
Regards
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|