Gas verses Diesel Tow Vehicle

[pappy19]

$850 for a lifetime of oil changes stops at the end of the engine warranty, and fine if you never are away from your dealer when you need an oil change.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by lesbuford

I bet no one has ever asked this question!
I am a complete "newby" planning to purchase a used 25-28 foot Airstream.
My wife and I plan to take off a year from now and spend at least a year touring the USA, staying in National Parks and seeing all that we can.
I will definately go to the Rocky Mountains and want to be sure we have a reliable vehicle that will slow us down on the steep declines. We also plan to live full time in our Airstream for at least a year and hope we can keep going for many more years.
MY QUESTION:
DIESEL OR GAS?
I have looked at a 2018 Chevy Silverado 2500HD 4X4 with a Vortek 6.0L V-8 with a 6 speed Automatic Heavy duty transmisson THAT IS NOT A DIESEL, and a GMC 2016 Sierra2500 Crew Cab 4WD that is a Diesel.
The dealerships are telling me that the new high displacement gas engines are just as good as the diesel, and that they can handle even a 8,000 pound 28 foot Airstream easily. Two different salesmen at the dealerships say I am overdoing it with the GMC Diesel, and that the large gas engine can handle up to 14,000 Pounds. Any advice would be much appreciated!
Thanks in advance for your sage advice!!!

If according to the salesman, their gaser is just as good as the diesel why on earth are they making diesel trucks at all ?

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

I've been on many long decents in the 6% range. Usually 3rd gear does it. I did grab second once in a particularly steep twisty section. That was overkill.

I used to tow the same trailer with a 5.0 f150, albeit only for short trips. My trailer is loaded up for full time travel now.

The 250 is better towing in every category. It's not mind-blowingly better, but it's clear.

And I've been from NJ to FL to Arizona and back (2x!). I run 87. From what I've seen diesel is always significantly more expensive. Gone are the 20 mpg diesel days unless you delete the EPA stuff. Talking to people with modern diesels I'm told they are getting maybe 12-13 mpg towing (real world including idling and what not). That's not a big enough gap to pay for the difference.

Now if money is no object, and you don't mind the risk of lengthy repairs (parts and diesel mechanics can be stretched at times), then it's hard to argue with 900 ft lb of torque. But it's really not necessary with an under 10,000 trailer.

My 17 ram with our 13 31’ Classic gets 13-14 mpg , empty 20-21... 6.7 Cummins auto and 4 wheel drive......$850 for life time synethic oil changes

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by pappy19

When you look at the initial cost difference of $8,000, plus the maintenance costs, DEF issues, and added fuel costs(and smell), even if you kept the diesel for 200,000 miles, a gas is a better deal. As was mentioned above, very few diesel owners keep their rig after the engine warranty runs out due to the hugely expensive parts. I've had both and would not go back to diesel.

What smell ? It is obvious you are not driving a diesel. They don't smell and they are not noisie. All you hear is reassuring murmur of power.
Not too many people keep their vehicles of any kind for 200,000 miles. I for one get bored driving the same thing after 4 years. As to the warranty running out extended warranties are not that expensive and you make it sound like diesel trucks are breaking down all over the place willynilly requiring constant repairs. If that where the case they couldn't sell any. If anything the major reason for buying a diesel is the their proven durability over the long haul. In Europe they are preferred and over sixty percent of the cars are diesels. We were in Germany last month and all you see is diesels, and that includes brand new luxury Mercedeses and Audies.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

If according to the salesman, their gaser is just as good as the diesel why on earth are they making diesel trucks at all ?

The salesman doesn't care what you purchase...as long as you purchase...hes playing middle of the road...

I've said this before. One more comment on the diesel experience we have enjoyed..driving up/down the Rockies all summer at 60-65, 1500 RPms pulling the 28'. While using the cruise control with automatic engine braking in tow haul and new distance control feature for collision avoidance, the automation allows you to relax more with foot off gas/brake. Friend following me on one trip in Northern MT, commented he never saw my brake lights while he was continually braking or stepping on the gas with his 30' Class A motorhome behind me. The new technology is very nice. Not sure how the engine braking works on the gas compared with the diesel? Any one care to comment on difference?

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

The salesman doesn't care what you purchase...as long as you purchase...hes playing middle of the road...

I've said this before. One more comment on the diesel experience we have enjoyed..driving up/down the Rockies all summer at 60-65, 1500 RPms pulling the 28'. While using the cruise control with automatic engine braking in tow haul and new distance control feature for collision avoidance, the automation allows you to relax more with foot off gas/brake. Friend following me on one trip in Northern MT, commented he never saw my brake lights while he was continually braking or stepping on the gas with his 30' Class A motorhome behind me. The new technology is very nice. Not sure how the engine braking works on the gas compared with the diesel? Any one care to comment on difference?

I don't think anyone, and certainly not me, would argue that the diesel isn't a better tool for the towing job. The real question, at least in my mind, is do the benefits outweigh the detriments.

I voted with my wallet a few months ago and would vote the same way today. Gas.

[EZTOO]

Originally Posted by avionstream

The year of the truck is so important. I discard any comments from posters nkt mentioning the year of the truck. Tech is changing rapidly and a year or two can be a huge difference. Those talking trucks five or more years old are out of contact. Comparing a five or ten year old truck to a new one can be irrelevant.

While info on new technology is important, to say TVs that are 5-10 years old are irrelevant is in poor taste. Some folks might appreciate how their possible TV might hold up over the long-term. My 2013 F-250, 6.2 has been a solid performer and I think they still offer that model/engine...

[Rgentum]

I'd like to mention another variable: depreciation.

Three years ago, I bought a new 2015 Ram/Cummins 2500 for $55K.

Several weeks ago, I traded it in on a heavily discounted 2018 new Ram/Cummins 3500. The dealer effectively gave me $52K as the trade-in value for my 2015 2500. $3K depreciation for three years and 30K miles is not bad. I shudder to think what the depreciation would have been if the 2500 had had a gas engine.

As for the maintenance cost of the 2500 over three years:
1. Free oil changes came with the new truck (the truck had a 7.5K mile schedule for oil changes, which are normally $80).
2. The only maintenance item was fuel filter changes every 15K miles, which were approximately $300.
Bottom line: 2 x $300 = $600 fuel filter changes total maintenance for 30K miles.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

What smell ? It is obvious you are not driving a diesel. They don't smell and they are not noisy. All you hear is reassuring murmur of power.
Not too many people keep their vehicles of any kind for 200,000 miles. I for one get bored driving the same thing after 4 years. As to the warranty running out extended warranties are not that expensive and you make it sound like diesel trucks are breaking down all over the place willynilly requiring constant repairs. If that where the case they couldn't sell any. If anything the major reason for buying a diesel is the their proven durability over the long haul. In Europe they are preferred and over sixty percent of the cars are diesels. We were in Germany last month and all you see is diesels, and that includes brand new luxury Mercedeses and Audies.

I had two diesel vehicles when I lived in the UK. Wouldn’t buy one here unless I needed a heavy truck.

When I considered a diesel SUV some years back my wife made it clear she wouldn’t be refueling it, based on our three years of UK experience. The smell is primarily when refuelling these days.

Diesels are no longer preferred in Europe. New vehicle sales of diesels are now less than gasoline. Manufacturers are moving away from diesels. There is still a large in service fleet, but it will keep dropping, and the bans on diesels in large cities will accelerate that trend.

Diesels in Europe were subsidized by reduced fuel taxes for fuel efficiency reasons. Now that air quality is a higher priority, the writing is on the wall.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Rgentum

I'd like to mention another variable: depreciation.

Three years ago, I bought a new 2015 Ram/Cummins 2500 for $55K.

Several weeks ago, I traded it in on a heavily discounted 2018 new Ram/Cummins 3500. The dealer effectively gave me $52K as the trade-in value for my 2015 2500. $3K depreciation for three years and 30K miles is not bad. I shudder to think what the depreciation would have been if the 2500 had had a gas engine.

As for the maintenance cost of the 2500 over three years:
1. Free oil changes came with the new truck (the truck had a 7.5K mile schedule for oil changes, which are normally $80).
2. The only maintenance item was fuel filter changes every 15K miles, which were approximately $300.
Bottom line: 2 x $300 = $600 fuel filter changes total maintenance for 30K miles.

The "trade in value" is not a real way to measure depreciation. See what they'll give you -cash - to see the real depreciation. Also if you paid cash for the new one you would "find" that extra "trade in value" you got for your used one.

Another scam is a letter from the dealer saying they are "short on used trucks" and need yours badly.

[pappy19]

If you had a 2015 Dodge diesel and after 3 years only put on 30k miles, you really didn't need a diesel in the first place, you wanted one. And that is the final thought, no current Airstream model requires a 3/4 or 1 ton truck and not a diesel powered one for sure. It's all about the urge for more power, but the big 3 have gas engines to more than adequately haul any Airstream.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by pappy19

If you had a 2015 Dodge diesel and after 3 years only put on 30k miles, you really didn't need a diesel in the first place, you wanted one. And that is the final thought, no current Airstream model requires a 3/4 or 1 ton truck and not a diesel powered one for sure. It's all about the urge for more power, but the big 3 have gas engines to more than adequately haul any Airstream.

I agree with everything you wrote. Except that "no current airstream requires a 3/4 or 1 ton." While true, that depends on what else you carry. I have a 250-300# cap and Probably 400-500# of gear in my bed. No 1/2 ton crew cab is going to handle that in addition to 800+# of tongue weight plus passengers.

[Lara Me]

For those paying $6-7 a gallon for DEF, you know you can get it for $3 a gallon at any truck stop, right from the pump. Easier to dispense too.

And $300 fuel filter changes for a Cummins? Buy a MOPAR fuel filter kit from Geno’s Garage for $110 and DIY. Takes about 30 min to change front and rear fuel filters. The rear one can get messy.

[21Airstream]

+1 on Geno’s Garage for Ram parts. Good people (& prices) and fast shipping.

I’ve saved a lot of money doing my own fuel filter changes.

[bwoodtx]

Just my 2 cents: For years I pulled my '97 31' classic with a 2500HD 6.0 gas Travel weight about 7300#. While the truck did a nice job of towing, I finally got tired of the engine downshifting and revving up to 4200 rpm(I know this is normal) and my fuel mileage being around 9-10 at 65mph.

Fast forward to October 2017-I purchased a Ford F250 Super Duty with the 6.7 diesel. pulling the same trailer over the same route at the same speed my fuel mileage is 13-15 at 1500rpm.

I wish I had done this sooner.

[KWN306]

Originally Posted by bwoodtx

Just my 2 cents: For years I pulled my '97 31' classic with a 2500HD 6.0 gas Travel weight about 7300#. While the truck did a nice job of towing, I finally got tired of the engine downshifting and revving up to 4200 rpm(I know this is normal) and my fuel mileage being around 9-10 at 65mph.

Fast forward to October 2017-I purchased a Ford F250 Super Duty with the 6.7 diesel. pulling the same trailer over the same route at the same speed my fuel mileage is 13-15 at 1500rpm.

I wish I had done this sooner.

A few questions:

What rear do you have?

With the additional initial cost of the engine and transmission, the additional cost of the fuel (on the east coast it is 0.40 gallon more) and with the average increase of fuel mileage of approximately 4 mpg, how many miles or years of towing will it take to get to the break even point compared to a gas engine?

[bwoodtx]

Originally Posted by KWN306

A few questions:

What rear do you have?

With the additional initial cost of the engine and transmission, the additional cost of the fuel (on the east coast it is 0.40 gallon more) and with the average increase of fuel mileage of approximately 4 mpg, how many miles or years of towing will it take to get to the break even point compared to a gas engine?

I have the 3.55 with 20" tires. Truck is a 2013 King Ranch.

Since I bought this vehicle used with only 36K on it, most of the initial cost outlay has been nullified. I do not have an answer to your question as I have not thought about it.

I can tell you that I would not have bought this truck new.

My line of thinking is that if I have a $70K truck and a $90K airstream, I should be able to afford fuel and maintenance. If not, then I should have another set up.

[BillfromWI]

Payload should be the highest criteria in you requirements.

We have a 2104 FC25FB. It's tongue weight, ready to travel, is 1,252 lbs. on the Airstream factory scale. (I had it weighed while in for warranty work. The AS specs for this trailer is 837 lbs.) Late model 25 front bedroom units have high tongue weights, something I was unaware of when I bought my first tow vehicle.

I ordered a 2103 F150 4x4, 3.5 Ecoboost, 144 WB, max tow, max payload. It was great truck but it was overloaded and could not be "equalized" not to be, and by-the-way, the receiver was rated for 1,150 lbs.

I now tow with a 2016 Sierra 2500 Duramax. It is not overload and I like the diesel more than the Ecoboost but I will never recover the cost of the diesel option in fuel savings. Not being overloaded, increased range, climbing performance, and descending peace of mind are worth it to me.

UNDERSTAND YOUR LOAD REQUIREMENTS

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Lara Me

For those paying $6-7 a gallon for DEF, you know you can get it for $3 a gallon at any truck stop, right from the pump. Easier to dispense too.

And $300 fuel filter changes for a Cummins? Buy a MOPAR fuel filter kit from Geno’s Garage for $110 and DIY. Takes about 30 min to change front and rear fuel filters. The rear one can get messy.

.....are you kidding me...2017 ram. 6.7. Filters $85 at dodge....2.5 gal of def at Walmart...$7.35...good for 1500 miles towing....7

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

I agree with everything you wrote. Except that "no current airstream requires a 3/4 or 1 ton." While true, that depends on what else you carry. I have a 250-300# cap and Probably 400-500# of gear in my bed. No 1/2 ton crew cab is going to handle that in addition to 800+# of tongue weight plus passengers.

Very true....I just don’t like the 4000 rpm going up hill, with the flashers on...it isn’t going to happen here....l like 1500 rpm .....