Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-27-2018, 07:38 AM   #441
4 Rivet Member
 
Tuco's Avatar
 
1988 32' Excella
Ojai , California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 275
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
Still running drum brakes on the TT with the cheap Prodigy 3 equivalent controller?

Thatís where the improvement should have been: trailer antilock discs. Lighter & more capable (stable) tow vehicle.

Not heavier TV without corresponding load. All that does is make total braking distance worse. In every condition. With or without the load. Cutting open road top speed even farther.

And you CANNOT use exhaust brake in the wet.

Exhaust brake adds nothing with these trailers. Theyíre tiny as to weight.

Too high a descent speed is the underlying problem.

How on earth did they ever descend these mountains in the 1960s and 1970s with trailers just as heavy? With 4,5,6 people in the car.

Wait while I consult memory.

Oh, yeah. Rig is at highest vulnerability to loss-of-control accident on a downslope. Descent speed has to account for WOT acceleration with trailer brakes absolutely closed.

What follows from that? The, ďHow to Do a Descent?Ē No matter how bad the TV choice as to inherent stability.

Gas versus Diesel doesnít exist in the real world.

Almost without exception I get you dummies passing me and other big trucks on the upslope. Considering we have somewhat better ďhitch riggingĒ, the downslope concern about the travel trailer pulling out to pass (as yours & mine will want to do) is a GIGANTIC concern. The biggest of the day. The week. The year.

Hitch rigging OTHER than taut is what you minimize. Practice. (How do you Exit the Interstate? Down to 50-mph BEFORE exit ramp and down to 35 immediately. Then just as quickly back up to 40-45. To enter the side road WITH TAUT HITCH RIGGING.

It is NOT about the brain-dead ďcontrolĒ of speed going downslope, it is SPACE out ahead, and proper procedure of service brake use. The whole way.

Itís still true that the ascent and descent are made at the same speed. Below 40-mph isnít simply ďfineĒ, itís prudent (go look that up).

The heavier the TV, and the less-responsive the engine choice, the harder the job.

Itís brakes and gearing. Up & down. On or off the highway.

Pay strict attention to hitch rigging slack.

.
After all the years you have owned that truck you still haven't installed an exhaust brake? Because if you had you wouldn't be saying some of the things you have in this post. (you cant use the exhaust brake in the wet? Added braking adds nothing? What?)
__________________
Dave & MJ
1988 32' Excella 1000 (Beauty)
1999 White Dodge SLT Laramie 3500 Dually, 4x4, 5spd, 5.9 CTD 265k+ (The Beast)
Tuco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 10:16 AM   #442
Rivet Master
 
gypsydad's Avatar

 
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer) , Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
After all the years you have owned that truck you still haven't installed an exhaust brake? Because if you had you wouldn't be saying some of the things you have in this post. (you cant use the exhaust brake in the wet? Added braking adds nothing? What?)
Amen Brother! Not sure I even understand his (Slowmover) posts anymore! No current experience with today's technology, but an expert still, no doubt!


I get a kick out of reading the replies on TV questions, by folks who are the "experts" talking about TV's they have never towed with, comparing them to their own preference of TV. Today's mfg's. have built in some pretty impressive features for TV's. I really don't care what others want to use, but when posting about something they "have never experienced" and trying to come across as an expert on the newest technology in all driving conditions, it drives me nutz!
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road!
2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
gypsydad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 10:28 AM   #443
Rivet Master
 
thewarden's Avatar

 
2016 27' International
Sherwood Park , Alberta
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post

And you CANNOT use exhaust brake in the wet.

.
You cannot use exhaust brake in the wet? What? Been doing it for 40 years, very effectively.
thewarden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 12:24 PM   #444
Rivet Master
 
Troutboy's Avatar

 
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Parker , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,651
Images: 1
I have never owned, driven, or towed with any type of diesel truck. but let me tell you what I know about them, errrr.... nothing. I like my gasser just fine, but if I thought I needed more power or torque, I would consider it. My 2018 F150 toes the 23D just fine,with the payload I need.

I think they are all good these days....
__________________
Thanks,
Troutboy
Troutboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 02:32 PM   #445
Rivet Master
 
gypsydad's Avatar

 
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer) , Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troutboy View Post
I have never owned, driven, or towed with any type of diesel truck. but let me tell you what I know about them, errrr.... nothing. I like my gasser just fine, but if I thought I needed more power or torque, I would consider it. My 2018 F150 toes the 23D just fine,with the payload I need.

I think they are all good these days....
Agree; I think the EB F150 is very well matched...we loved ours for the 25's. My buddy loves his 2015 F150 EB pulling his 23D...he got a great deal on a slightly used model..22k miles.
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road!
2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
gypsydad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 02:41 PM   #446
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewarden View Post
You cannot use exhaust brake in the wet? What? Been doing it for 40 years, very effectively.
It is unsafe to use engine or exhaust brakes on slippery roads. You have to decide if that wet road is slippery or not. If it hasn't rained in a while, and the oil has come to the surface, then the road can be at its most dangerous, and no, you should not use engine or exhaust brakes. If there is standing water you should similarly not use engine or exhaust brakes.

This was part of basic driver education, and for those that didn't get more than a light vehicle license, it is included in your owner's manual. RAM, as an example, says don't use their exhaust brake on slippery roads.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 02:44 PM   #447
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
I really don't care what others want to use, but when posting about something they "have never experienced" and trying to come across as an expert on the newest technology in all driving conditions, it drives me nutz!
Does your exhaust brake on your pickup apply the trailer brakes and TV front wheel brakes concurrently? That would be a good use of technology. Or does it just turn off the engine brake if the ABS detects a different wheel speed front to rear, or measurable yaw?
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2018, 08:28 PM   #448
Rivet Master
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
San Diego , California
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Amen Brother! Not sure I even understand his (Slowmover) posts anymore! No current experience with today's technology, but an expert still, no doubt!


I get a kick out of reading the replies on TV questions, by folks who are the "experts" talking about TV's they have never towed with, comparing them to their own preference of TV. Today's mfg's. have built in some pretty impressive features for TV's. I really don't care what others want to use, but when posting about something they "have never experienced" and trying to come across as an expert on the newest technology in all driving conditions, it drives me nutz!
Who cares that it tows better. All that technology didn't allow it to seat 8. Or make it small enough to park in my garage. Or give it full time 4WD.

Like any tool, the right size, makes things effortless. What is the right size for you may not be for others. Some people want to do everything with a sledge hammer . Others prefer the balance and finesse of a claw hammer for it's multifaceted utility.
pteck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 03:55 AM   #449
Rivet Master
 
2012 19' International
Southeastern MI , Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
Who cares that it tows better. All that technology didn't allow it to seat 8. Or make it small enough to park in my garage. Or give it full time 4WD.

Like any tool, the right size, makes things effortless. What is the right size for you may not be for others. Some people want to do everything with a sledge hammer . Others prefer the balance and finesse of a claw hammer for it's multifaceted utility.
What vehicle these days comfortably seats eight?
Countryboy59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 04:31 AM   #450
Rivet Master
 
r carl's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Lin , Ne
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
Yes, and I have a Lincoln MK VIII that provides little to no engine braking. My wife complains about it all the time. You have to take it out of OD to get any meaningful engine braking.

As far as friction is concerned are you trying to tell me that a diesel engine has more friction than a gas of the same size? I'm sorry but i'm laughing on that one. Engine internals are the same between the two designs. There is no meaningful added items on the diesel to explain parity in engine braking. You say that its the drive train, but if you compare the same truck one gas the other diesel they will both have engine braking which is similar with comparably sized motors and the EXACT same drive train. Your argument about the vacuum doesn't fly and neither does this.
I do know my fuel injected pickup doesn't have instant engine braking like carbureted pickups from the past when you let off of it, it keeps going for a short while. Must be an emission thing.
Diesel engines have more reciprocal weight than a gas engine but more compression to slow it down when you let off of it.
__________________
The higher your expectations the fewer your options.
r carl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 06:37 AM   #451
Dazed and Confused
 
Isuzusweet's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
1983 31' Airstream310
Hillsburgh , Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
What vehicle these days comfortably seats eight?
My 2012 Honda Pilot seats eight, has VTM-4 4WD system, and will fit in his garage.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony
__________________
Per Mare, Per Terram and may all your campaigns be successful.

ďItís a recession when your neighbor loses his job; itís a depression when you lose your own.Ē "Harry S Truman"
Isuzusweet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 09:34 AM   #452
Rivet Master
 
gypsydad's Avatar

 
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer) , Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
My 2012 Honda Pilot seats eight, has VTM-4 4WD system, and will fit in his garage.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony
He said "comfortably" seats 8...come on guys. I guess next question might be "who" drives around with 8 adults pulling an AS and "how many" can you "comfortably" sleep in an AS??

My point about the overall value of pulling a larger AS with a newer 3/4 diesel TV vs a Lexus or your Honda Pilot somehow keeps getting overlooked by some of you die hard "I know best" type folks....lets just agree that the diesel is a great choice for a TV for the larger AS's, and leave it at that; ok? If you don't want to drive a diesel nor can appreciate the value it provides as a TV, that's your prerogative... I have personally pulled 2 25' AS's with new Tahoe's before getting the EB F150 which was fantastic upgrade to the Tahoes...then the F250 6.7L diesel with my 28'...fantastic improvement on the road....and as they say, mine "is" bigger than yours!
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road!
2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
gypsydad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 10:14 AM   #453
Rivet Master
 
gypsydad's Avatar

 
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer) , Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
It is unsafe to use engine or exhaust brakes on slippery roads. You have to decide if that wet road is slippery or not. If it hasn't rained in a while, and the oil has come to the surface, then the road can be at its most dangerous, and no, you should not use engine or exhaust brakes. If there is standing water you should similarly not use engine or exhaust brakes.

This was part of basic driver education, and for those that didn't get more than a light vehicle license, it is included in your owner's manual. RAM, as an example, says don't use their exhaust brake on slippery roads.
Say what?? The exhaust brake provides a great advantage to slowing the vehicle...better than applying the wheel brakes which can slip/slide on some wet/frozen surfacesÖthe engine brakes provide a great addition to braking, but if you don't understand how/when to use it, or you don't have one to compare, I can understand your not quite seeing the benefits used in conjunction with the newest technology on todays diesel engines.
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road!
2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
gypsydad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 11:48 AM   #454
4 Rivet Member
 
Tuco's Avatar
 
1988 32' Excella
Ojai , California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 275
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
Does your exhaust brake on your pickup apply the trailer brakes and TV front wheel brakes concurrently? That would be a good use of technology. Or does it just turn off the engine brake if the ABS detects a different wheel speed front to rear, or measurable yaw?
I don’t think Gypsydad has seen the new spec on the CRR exhaust mode Ford is coming out with in 2021. As a mere instrumentation technician I’ll do my best to explain what I think I know.

Ford plans to use an ACME discombobulator in conjunction with a BTTF flux capacitor to redirect exhaust gasses through coyote piping to small roadrunner turbines at each wheel to provide added brake performance. The system can indeed accommodate added turbines at each trailer wheel, but this is obviously an aftermarket installation on the trailer. An external computer and gimbal arrangement does provide much needed pitch, roll and yaw control of the trailer and TV. This system only works at speeds in excess of 88 mph and I’m not really sure what happens when you reach this speed.

There are added maintenance cost that come from maintaining the coyote to roadrunner isolation valves at every oil change. If the two come into contact the roadrunner turbines are through. I might not have all the details correct, but maybe others on here have more information. Hope this helped.
__________________
Dave & MJ
1988 32' Excella 1000 (Beauty)
1999 White Dodge SLT Laramie 3500 Dually, 4x4, 5spd, 5.9 CTD 265k+ (The Beast)
Tuco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 12:16 PM   #455
Site Team
 
GCinSC2's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic S/O
Somewhere , South Carolina
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,093
What he said!
__________________
S/OS #001
2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L 6 Speed
16" Michelins, Hi Spec Wheels, Max Brake, Dexter 4 Piston Disc Brakes, Carslile Actuator, Equal-I-Zer, Dill TPMS. Campfire cook. BMV-712
GCinSC2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 01:21 PM   #456
Rivet Master
 
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Amen Brother! Not sure I even understand his (Slowmover) posts anymore! No current experience with today's technology, but an expert still, no doubt!


I get a kick out of reading the replies on TV questions, by folks who are the "experts" talking about TV's they have never towed with, comparing them to their own preference of TV. Today's mfg's. have built in some pretty impressive features for TV's. I really don't care what others want to use, but when posting about something they "have never experienced" and trying to come across as an expert on the newest technology in all driving conditions, it drives me nutz!:
Reading his posts these last few years convinced me that slowmover isn't a real person. Me thinks its and algorithm created by ProPride and CanAm that posts pre-programmed responses whenever there is a thread about Tow Vehicles and or Hitches. :-)
Happy Camping in the New Year to all .
franklyfrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 02:22 PM   #457
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post


Say what?? The exhaust brake provides a great advantage to slowing the vehicle...better than applying the wheel brakes which can slip/slide on some wet/frozen surfacesÖthe engine brakes provide a great addition to braking, but if you don't understand how/when to use it, or you don't have one to compare, I can understand your not quite seeing the benefits used in conjunction with the newest technology on todays diesel engines.
If you havenít taken a heavy duty vehicle driver training course, or gotten an air brake endorsement, both of which covered driving in slippery conditions in my province, you can still read the ownerís manual that came with your truck. From the 2018 Ford manual for the 6.7:

Quote:
Do not use tow/haul when the road surface is slippery. Failure to follow this instruction could result in the loss of control of your vehicle.
Do not use diesel engine exhaust braking when the road surface is slippery. Failure to follow this instruction could result in the loss of control of your vehicle.
We arenít making this stuff up.

Essentially, instead of applying the service brakes and having braking on all axles, plus the benefits of ABS, you are braking one axle only. The science of not doing so on a slippery surface is pretty straightforward, even for the TV solo. Add in a trailer with the coupling now in compression instead of tension, and you are adding in a lot of risk unnecessarily.

Suggest you donít put too much stock in that article you linked. I tried to get past the part where they said the pistons sucked in air, which they donít, but I had to stop when they said the pistons were spinning. Crankshafts spin. Pistons go back and forth.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 02:35 PM   #458
Full time Airstreamer
 
SCOTTinNJ's Avatar
 
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Anywhere , USA Living.Somewhere.Yonder
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
If you havenít taken a heavy duty vehicle driver training course, or gotten an air brake endorsement, both of which covered driving in slippery conditions in my province, you can still read the ownerís manual that came with your truck. From the 2018 Ford manual for the 6.7:



We arenít making this stuff up.

Essentially, instead of applying the service brakes and having braking on all axles, plus the benefits of ABS, you are braking one axle only. The science of not doing so on a slippery surface is pretty straightforward, even for the TV solo. Add in a trailer with the coupling now in compression instead of tension, and you are adding in a lot of risk unnecessarily.

Suggest you donít put too much stock in that article you linked. I tried to get past the part where they said the pistons sucked in air, which they donít, but I had to stop when they said the pistons were spinning. Crankshafts spin. Pistons go back and forth.
Just think of your TVs rear wheels trying to resist forward momentum with the trailer freely pushing against them.

Going straight downhill on dry pavement, fine.
Going straight downhill on wet pavement, likely fine.

Now add a turn and think about the side forces on those rear tires. In slippery conditions it's better to have a bit of tension on that hitch (by applying trailer brakes).

If anyone has ridden a motorcycle they may understand. You only have so much traction. It can be used for acceleration/deceleration and turning. If you overuse it for one you will have nothing left for the other.
__________________
@living.somewhere.yonder | Instagram
SCOTTinNJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 02:38 PM   #459
Rivet Master
 
gypsydad's Avatar

 
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer) , Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
I donít think Gypsydad has seen the new spec on the CRR exhaust mode Ford is coming out with in 2021. As a mere instrumentation technician Iíll do my best to explain what I think I know.

Ford plans to use an ACME discombobulator in conjunction with a BTTF flux capacitor to redirect exhaust gasses through coyote piping to small roadrunner turbines at each wheel to provide added brake performance. The system can indeed accommodate added turbines at each trailer wheel, but this is obviously an aftermarket installation on the trailer. An external computer and gimbal arrangement does provide much needed pitch, roll and yaw control of the trailer and TV. This system only works at speeds in excess of 88 mph and Iím not really sure what happens when you reach this speed.

There are added maintenance cost that come from maintaining the coyote to roadrunner isolation valves at every oil change. If the two come into contact the roadrunner turbines are through. I might not have all the details correct, but maybe others on here have more information. Hope this helped.
I was thinking that was coming down the road...but wasn't sure the dates!
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road!
2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
gypsydad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 02:43 PM   #460
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by r carl View Post
I do know my fuel injected pickup doesn't have instant engine braking like carbureted pickups from the past when you let off of it, it keeps going for a short while. Must be an emission thing.
Diesel engines have more reciprocal weight than a gas engine but more compression to slow it down when you let off of it.
Diesel engines have more reciprocating weight.

They have more compression, but that doesnít slow you down unless you open the exhaust valve after the compression stroke, aka a compression release brake, or Jake brake. You donít have one on a pickup. What you may have is an exhaust brake; the retarding force it provides isnít a function of the compression ratio.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Single 15,000 btu verses dual A/c in FC 25' ljsigman Furnaces, Heaters, Fireplaces & Air Conditioning 16 02-01-2018 03:43 PM
FB verses RB Dwain 2005 and newer - Bambi all models 20 12-19-2017 06:19 PM
15 '' D rated verses 16'' E rated Tires hodges53 Tires 9 07-25-2014 07:16 PM
4 speed verses GV Chuckles Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 19 06-06-2010 10:19 PM
Tongue weight verses tongue height - level the WD hitch? HowieE Hitches, Couplers & Balls 12 11-17-2007 01:02 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.