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Old 03-30-2018, 09:18 AM   #281
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When the time comes to replace our RAM 1500 we will certainly look at 3/4 ton trucks because of higher load capacity. At that time we値l also evaluate engine options on vehicles configured for towing. That値l be fun!
Fun is right...I was seriously looking at the new F150EB 4x4 with 10speed; took one home over night and loved the ride. Wife however, really felt we should move up to 3/4T with the new 28', soooo "happy wife, happy life"!
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:42 AM   #282
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Gas verses Diesel Tow Vehicle

Yup. That痴 the bottom line around here. Wife likes Toyotas, so I get to use the 2012 4x4 crew cab Tacoma for now. I知 told we can get a fancy Tundra eventually ...

Side note, she was the one that decided we needed a shiny new 2008 Tacoma crew-cab long bed. And she was the one that paid for it. I知 quite happy that I married her
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:13 AM   #283
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Additionally, I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say. Along with ANYTHING that says HP not Torque is what pulls the load up hill.

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<snip>
Is a gasser faster, YES!
What works less hard pulling load? Diesel
Which is better for passing? Gasser
Which is better for steep long grades? Diesel
Hey, we're getting somewhere!

Now that we can understand that some gassers might be able to perform on par or possibly even surpass a diesel up a hill in objective measurements...

Diesels rock. For loaded heavy work, subjectively, they feel less frenetic in how they go about doing work. Don't get me wrong. Less frenetic doesn't mean they work any less hard. Older ones tend to be crude and loud, with turbo's ramping to 100k+ rpm, high pressure injectors getting busy, and big bones bearing the massive onset of compression and resulting combustion cylinder pressures. Perhaps even a downshift on very steep grades. Yet, we agree, their ability to produce HP (with torque!) in gear is unmatched.

Diesel fuel has more energy content than gasoline. This is the basis to their efficiency, mpg, and hence cost advantage when performing work. Because of less rpm, they can have less windage and drag losses. Sometimes offset by being built big boned and strong, with huge bearings, which increases mechanical drag. That same big boned build usually results in more long term durability, but we're finding that only the commercial diesels are truly built for longevity. Because of all the other lesser ancillary components in retail products.

For the open road, diesels come packaged in chassis's typically more suited for that work. It's no surprise that many of you that have upgraded find your 3/4 ton diesel truck ideal for that role!

Cheers. And more camping to you all!
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:29 AM   #284
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泥iesels fuel has more energy content than gasoline. This is the basis to their efficiency, mpg, and hence cost advantage when performing work.

That was also mentioned in the link that DB provided, the How Stuff Works article. But it isn稚 accurate.

Yes, diesel fuel has about 5% more energy content, on a volumetric basis (and less than that advantage on some winter fuels.) But diesels are commonly exceeding the efficiency (in mpg) of gas engines by more than 5%, so that can稚 be it all.

It is due to the higher compression ratio, which increases efficiency. The compression ignition (diesel) cycle allows higher compression ratios. We can see that benefit in the Mazda compression ignition (diesel cycle) engine that runs on gasoline.
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:37 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Fun is right...I was seriously looking at the new F150EB 4x4 with 10speed; took one home over night and loved the ride. Wife however, really felt we should move up to 3/4T with the new 28', soooo "happy wife, happy life"!
How is it your wife would know better than you?
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:40 AM   #286
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I saw those.

Most Diesel people towing trailers are talking about full size trucks.
Most (all) engineers calculating hp and torque don’t change the formulas that define the relationship between the two based on the brand or size of equipment they are evaluating.
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:58 AM   #287
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. Yet, we agree, their ability to produce HP (with torque!) in gear is unmatched.
We have agreed on the majority

I guess our continued disagreement will be, does it make torque to pull or HP?

Something to consider: Below 5252 RPM ANY engines torque number will be higher than it's Horsepower number. After 5252 the Horsepower number will be higher. Diesels rarely have a Max RPM above 5000 and as a result produce the most measurable "Power" from Torque.

This is even evidenced in your two referenced Titan XD trucks spec sheets. It is also my basis for sticking with my comment it is torque (For Diesels) that pull it up a hill.
http://nissannews.com/media_storage/...pecs-FINAL.pdf

Thanks for the discussion without too much emotion
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Old 03-30-2018, 11:02 AM   #288
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Most (all) engineers calculating hp and torque don稚 change the formulas that define the relationship between the two based on the brand or size of equipment they are evaluating.
The formulas were not disputed, ever.

What was being disputed was putting a truck (Ram 3500) that has over 900 lb-ft of torque in the same category (for ability to pull) as an Titan XD with 500 lb-ft.

If you wish to, be my guest.
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Old 03-30-2018, 11:26 AM   #289
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1.That was also mentioned in the link that DB provided, the How Stuff Works article. But it isn’t accurate.

2. But diesels are commonly exceeding the efficiency (in mpg) of gas engines by more than 5%, so that can’t be it all.


3. It is due to the higher compression ratio, which increases efficiency.
1. Yeah, it really is. "Diesel fuel also has higher energy (about 14%) by volume than gasoline, which means less fuel is required to generate the same power as gas, improving overall fuel economy.

2. Might bump those numbers up a bit. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, diesel engines offer 30- to 35-percent greater fuel economy than comparable gasoline engines.

3. Partially, but certainly adds to it! "By design, diesel engines operate with a combustion process that's leaner, burning less fuel than a conventional spark ignition (gasoline) engine," explained Roger Gault, technical director, Truck & Engine Manufacturers Association

While I love a good debate, I try to get my information accurate.
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:08 PM   #290
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I Decide that I needed as much torque and horsepower as I could get. So I tow with a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S. 521HP 535lb-ft torque. It's a few years old now but it sure gets the job done. It can tow a 5000lb boat and trailer from 0-60 in 9 seconds. Will also pull an Airbus A380 without weight distribution or sway control!
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:10 PM   #291
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I want a Toyota Tundra, just in case I have to park a Space Shuttle in a tight spot
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:43 PM   #292
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I want a Toyota Tundra, just in case I have to park a Space Shuttle in a tight spot
Now that's an important feature
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:45 PM   #293
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1. Yeah, it really is. "Diesel fuel also has higher energy (about 14%) by volume than gasoline, which means less fuel is required to generate the same power as gas, improving overall fuel economy.
Not sure how you are calculating that, or what data you are using. My handbooks have diesel at 35.8 MJ/l and gasoline at 34.2 MJ/l. (35.8-34.2)/34.2 = 4.7%. Those are the figures we used in certified fuel consumption tests, with reference fuels. We used a bomb calorimeter to check the fuel. Your number could be higher if you are allowing for ethanol in the gasoline, as that reduces the energy density.

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2. Might bump those numbers up a bit. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, diesel engines offer 30- to 35-percent greater fuel economy than comparable gasoline engines.
That was exactly my point. You will see more than a 5% gain in fuel efficiency, so it can't all be attributed to the energy content of the fuel. Even if you use 14% as a rather optimistic energy content delta.

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3. Partially, but certainly adds to it! "By design, diesel engines operate with a combustion process that's leaner, burning less fuel than a conventional spark ignition (gasoline) engine," explained Roger Gault, technical director, Truck & Engine Manufacturers Association
Yes, running lean is part of it. Look up lean burn gasoline engines as well, as you can use lean burn with gasoline, and many manufacturers have done so. I would put it down to higher compression ratio, lack of throttling losses in a diesel, and the lean burn. I tend to not focus on the throttling losses in a gas engine, due to recent advances in engine design related to variable valve timing. If you are going to focus on the lean burn contribution, then consider the higher NOx emissions that come with lean burn. How do diesel manufacturers deal with the NOx? With selective catalytic reduction (SCR), or DEF to use the current shorthand. There will be a fuel burn associated with cleaning or regeneration, so be sure to include that in your overall fuel consumption.

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While I love a good debate, I try to get my information accurate.
Excellent. Me too. Suggest you look to sources beyond How Stuff Works

That article ignored compression ratio (equating it to a long stroke, which is a mechanical advantage); stated that it is compressed air that ignites the fuel mixture (it is the heat of that compression, not the air itself, which is why glow plugs may be required for a cold start even with the same compression); that diesel engines are built heavier to withstand a more potent fuel (it is the compression ratio that requires heavier construction); that towing requires more displacement (it requires more power, which can be achieved with forced induction and no change in displacement); and that torque reduces wear and tear on the vehicle (not in the powertrain that has to withstand that high torque)
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Old 03-30-2018, 01:06 PM   #294
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I probably should ignore this thread anymore but it痴 like watching a train wreck.

Few years ago I drove a 1997 Dodge 3500 5.9L 5 speed that we owned at work including hauling an enclosed car hauler with a show car from SC to TX and back. That rattling from a stop light a bit sluggish loving a good hard pull commercial engine sold me. I had to get one and at the time owned nothing that needed it.

Bought my new 2005 Dodge 2500 5.9L 6 speed with the latest engine, the common rail. It now has 194K on it.

In 2010 we got the itch to camp again and an Airstream was the only choice. Found a 2007 30 Classic Slideout. Walked in and that was it.

I could still camp with a Cougar by Montana 5弾r towed by a spark plug based white pickup, it would still be camping.

But like almost all of us we chose an Airstream when the majority didn稚.

I chose my diesel when many didn稚.

No regrets on either decision other than why did I get a short bed pickup?

See ya at the campfire.

Gary
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Old 03-30-2018, 01:29 PM   #295
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The one reference to that article was for EVERYONE here to be able to follow easier. We can debate engineering equations etc. all day long but, others looking for information by reading gain nothing that way. The article is still relevant.

I have seen up to 38.6 MJ/l for diesel and as low as 33.7MJ/l for gas, so obviously tests vary. Or at least that has been the case for the fuel that has passed through our tank farm.

We can agree on the lack of throttle plate, burn efficiency, compression and overall design that makes it significantly more efficient. The overall "energy" of the fuel must be accounted for (more than 5% IMO) as well.

When looking at "fuel consumption" and most people do so by MPG calculations. The particulate burn has already been done. I don't think anyone deducts for their burn?

Again, I am keeping this on a user level, not an engineering level.

Hopefully SOMEONE has gleaned useful information from ALL THIS !
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Old 03-30-2018, 01:50 PM   #296
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I want a Toyota Tundra, just in case I have to park a Space Shuttle in a tight spot


I almost bought a 2018 Tundra, but the engine and drive train tech is very old. Gas mileage was 13 mpg. I use the truck as a daily commuter and couldn稚 bear that low number, when competitors are getting 22 or better.

Toyota guys told me they are losing sales because of this and waiting for the next gen to come out that will put the truck back on par with the others.

They sure are pretty though, and reliable. I went with the f150 EB, 2018. Maybe upgrade in three years to a larger truck, we will see....
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:30 PM   #297
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Gas verses Diesel Tow Vehicle

My 2012 Tacoma will get 22mpg in normal driving. I commute with a Prius, however

There has been talk that a diesel Tundra is in the works, and a 僧ule is being tested in Texas. No solid release date yet, just 都oon. I知 going to wait a while...
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:32 PM   #298
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I wholeheartedly agree with the above. Airstreams are about camping and enjoying life to the fullest. As long as it does the job for you, the Airstream's tow vehicle is a minor component. Just get out there and camp.

Brian


Amen to this.
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:58 PM   #299
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“Diesels fuel has more energy content than gasoline. This is the basis to their efficiency, mpg, and hence cost advantage when performing work. “

That was also mentioned in the link that DB provided, the How Stuff Works article. But it isn’t accurate.

Yes, diesel fuel has about 5% more energy content, on a volumetric basis (and less than that advantage on some winter fuels.) But diesels are commonly exceeding the efficiency (in mpg) of gas engines by more than 5%, so that can’t be it all.

It is due to the higher compression ratio, which increases efficiency. The compression ignition (diesel) cycle allows higher compression ratios. We can see that benefit in the Mazda compression ignition (diesel cycle) engine that runs on gasoline.
The details your adding doesn't invalidate my statement one bit. I was absolutely accurate.

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We have agreed on the majority

I guess our continued disagreement will be, does it make torque to pull or HP?

<snip>
I think you're starting to get it. Though that statement is suspect.
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Old 03-30-2018, 07:55 PM   #300
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Thank you !

I just want to say thank you, to those that were willing to engage in heated debate without emotion or childish responses (especially w/ me !) you know who you are, I appreciate it

This site is an invaluable tool, especially when factual information is exchanged !

I have learned, as I hope others have.

I can only hope that this type dialog continues.

It would be a pleasure to have most of you at our fire. See you on the road.

Dan
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