Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-29-2018, 05:35 PM   #261
Rivet Master
 
SeaLevel's Avatar
 
2016 25' Flying Cloud
Jupiter , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
It has MOST to do with it. Hopefully you will read this.

This should help you out:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque4.htm

Regards
The article states:

"Once again, torque lets you do the work; horsepower lets you do the work quickly. Horsepower lets you accelerate when you're already moving and pulling something heavy behind you."

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque3.htm

That makes it sound like horsepower has more to do with speed than torque does.

As far as gas versus diesel - IMO, gasoline smells bad, but no where near as bad as diesel.
__________________
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving." - Lao Tzu
SeaLevel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 05:58 PM   #262
Rivet Master
 
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls , SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaLevel View Post
The article states:

"Once again, torque lets you do the work; horsepower lets you do the work quickly. Horsepower lets you accelerate when you're already moving and pulling something heavy behind you."

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque3.htm

That makes it sound like horsepower has more to do with speed than torque does.

As far as gas versus diesel - IMO, gasoline smells bad, but no where near as bad as diesel.
Read further...
"What's the verdict? In the end, all the evidence points to torque as being more important than horsepower when it comes to towing. Why? The power at low-end rpm provided by high levels of torque lets you move huge loads without much effort. As stated before, some diesel trucks produce twice as much torque as they do horsepower at near-idle RPM levels -- meaning that they can start pulling something like a trailer or a boat with ease."
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
DBinSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 06:13 PM   #263
Rivet Master
 
SeaLevel's Avatar
 
2016 25' Flying Cloud
Jupiter , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
Read further...
"What's the verdict? In the end, all the evidence points to torque as being more important than horsepower when it comes to towing. Why? The power at low-end rpm provided by high levels of torque lets you move huge loads without much effort. As stated before, some diesel trucks produce twice as much torque as they do horsepower at near-idle RPM levels -- meaning that they can start pulling something like a trailer or a boat with ease."
I thought the question was about speed, not the effort of getting off the line.
__________________
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving." - Lao Tzu
SeaLevel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 06:22 PM   #264
Rivet Master
 
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls , SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaLevel View Post
I thought the question was about speed, not the effort of getting off the line.
Above when I said it was a "torque difference" was referring to pulling a hill. By itself a vehicle w/HP has the advantage. TOWING up hill (what we are discussing) a vehicle with torque has the advantage.
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
DBinSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 06:44 PM   #265
Rivet Master
 
r carl's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Lin , Ne
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante View Post
See, this is one of many reasons why Iím in no hurry to switch to diesel. Seriously, why risk this kind of baloney while traveling?
Makes you wonder why gasoline doesn't have those fuel problems.
__________________
The higher your expectations the fewer your options.
r carl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 07:18 PM   #266
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
Above when I said it was a "torque difference" was referring to pulling a hill. By itself a vehicle w/HP has the advantage. TOWING up hill (what we are discussing) a vehicle with torque has the advantage.
That is only true as long as the speed up the hill is not important to you. Speed is a function of hp, not torque, and it doesnít matter whether you are running solo or towing a heavy load.

Canít wait until we get past the hp vs torque confusion, so we can get on to torque rise.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 07:35 PM   #267
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
That is an embarrassingly bad article, full of misconceptions.

Something to think about: engine torque doesnít start you off from rest, rim pull (wheel torque) does. There is also a transmission and a final drive ratio in that scenario. If you need more torque, use a lower gear. Try multiplying hp with gear ratios, and let us know how that works out.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 08:03 PM   #268
Rivet Master
 
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls , SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
That is only true as long as the speed up the hill is not important to you. Speed is a function of hp, not torque, and it doesnít matter whether you are running solo or towing a heavy load.

Canít wait until we get past the hp vs torque confusion
Most people would rather do 55mph up hill than 30mph IMO, judging by the look on their faces

HP=TORQUE x RPM / 5252 (the greater the torque the greater the acceleration) further explained by (Acceleration = Force (TORQUE) / Mass)
If you want faster acceleration you need more TORQUE

Finally, Torque absolutely matters if towing. The greater the torque the easier the pull. "..when asked to choose between horsepower or torque, the answer would be torque in the case of towing because it is better for towing trucks to have torque since the power at low-end rpm that high levels of torque provide can easier move and accelerate huge loads. There are even some diesel trucks that produce twice as much as torque than horsepower to enable them to easier pull things such as trailers and boats."

I am also glad the confusion is over
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
DBinSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 08:12 PM   #269
Rivet Master
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
San Diego , California
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
Above when I said it was a "torque difference" was referring to pulling a hill. By itself a vehicle w/HP has the advantage. TOWING up hill (what we are discussing) a vehicle with torque has the advantage.
Sorry, but unequivocally wrong. This is the very misnomer that diesel groupies waving the torque flag misunderstands.

Fact is a car that makes more HP, is because it's typically making MORE torque at a HIGHER rpm. Diesel torque bands fall way off at higher rpms, which handicaps their ability to make big HP. Said another way, they make a lot of torque down low, but they make very little torque up high. Gas motors can make torque low, high, and everywhere in between, especially when turbo'd.

Mathematically, HP is a product of two variable. Torque and RPM. Logically, the most HP comes from the product of those 2 variables being as large as possible. If you take a big torque number but multiply it by a small rpm number, you can understand that hp might be low (classic diesel motor). Take a small torque number and multiply that by a large rpm number, and hp might still only be marginal (classic gas motor). Today's advanced gas motors with many technologies thrown at it (turbo, variable valve timing, etc.) can make solid torque, across a wide rpm band, and to higher rpms.

To dispel the torque myth - HP is what does the work to pull loads up a hill. NOT torque alone, without RPM.

Did you know a 400 lb fat man, standing on the end of a 1 ft long wrench, makes 400 ft-lbs of torque? Heck add another fat man for 800 ft-lbs. Yet 10 fat men won't pull any significant load up a hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
2017 6.7L cummins is 385HP @2800RPM & 900 lb-ft (Torque) @ 1700RPM

newer is even more.
You know what's funny about this. The reality is that most any 385hp GAS motor will blow the doors off this big boy diesel towing a load up hill, provided it has the chassis and gearing. Regardless of torque (we already know it makes enough torque at the necessary rpm to make 385 HP!) Because the gasser will likely weigh quite a bit less.
pteck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 08:30 PM   #270
Rivet Master
 
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls , SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
Sorry, but unequivocally wrong. This is the very misnomer that diesel groupies waving the torque flag misunderstands.

Fact is a car that makes more HP, is because it's typically making MORE torque at a HIGHER rpm. Diesel torque bands fall way off at higher rpms, which handicaps their ability to make big HP. Said another way, they make a lot of torque down low, but they make very little torque up high. Gas motors can make torque low, high, and everywhere in between, especially when turbo'd.

Mathematically, HP is a product of two variable. Torque and RPM. Logically, the most HP comes from the product of those 2 variables being as large as possible. If you take a big torque number but multiply it by a small rpm number, you can understand that hp might be low (classic diesel motor). Take a small torque number and multiply that by a large rpm number, and hp might still only be marginal (classic gas motor). Today's advanced gas motors with many technologies thrown at it (turbo, variable valve timing, etc.) can make solid torque, across a wide rpm band, and to higher rpms.

To dispel the torque myth - HP is what does the work to pull loads up a hill. NOT torque alone, without RPM.



You know what's funny about this. The reality is that most any 385hp GAS motor will blow the doors off this big boy diesel towing a load up hill, provided it has the chassis and gearing. Regardless of torque (we already know it makes enough torque at the necessary rpm to make 385 HP!) Because the gasser will likely weigh quite a bit less.
You have some studying to do.

I could go into a whole engineering lesson about this, but Iíd rather let Jason from Engineering Explained handle that. "So when your car goes, itís actually the torque that does the moving. More torque means more force you have to either accelerate your car or pull a load with, since torque is Force x distance (aka lb-ft or Newton-Meters). Power is basically how fast you can keep putting out that torque."

Additionally, I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say. Along with ANYTHING that says HP not Torque is what pulls the load up hill.
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
DBinSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 08:59 PM   #271
Rivet Master
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
San Diego , California
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
You have some studying to do.

I could go into a whole engineering lesson about this, but I’d rather let Jason from Engineering Explained handle that. "So when your car goes, it’s actually the torque that does the moving. More torque means more force you have to either accelerate your car or pull a load with, since torque is Force x distance (aka lb-ft or Newton-Meters). Power is basically how fast you can keep putting out that torque."

Additionally, I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say. Along with ANYTHING that says HP not Torque is what pulls the load up hill.
I'll keep this from being personal. So I'll get straight to the answer. Though I'd encourage you to try to understand what you are studying.

A common easy to understand definition of hp:

One metric horsepower is needed to lift 75 kilograms by 1 metre in 1 second

See how the very meaning of hp is all about weight being lifted. With a time component?

Sounds a bit like towing a load up a hill in a timed situation no? I'll even attach a picture.

Click image for larger version

Name:	hpwiki.JPG
Views:	65
Size:	84.4 KB
ID:	307475


Said another way, I'll expand on my fat man example which I added to an earlier post to help clarify:

Take a 400 lb fat man, standing on the end of a 1 ft long wrench. This makes 400 ft-lbs of torque. Real work is not being done as he just stands.

Now imagine this man jumping up and down on that wrench, perhaps at 2000 time a minute. Now work is being done! Sounds a lot like a big diesel piston going round and round producing work, and in effect HP!

Now take a 200hp man doing the same deed, but jumping 5000 times a minute. That is our gas motor doing little bits of work, but at a lot faster rate. That makes more hp to get that work done!
pteck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 09:06 PM   #272
Rivet Master
 
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls , SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
You know what's funny about this. The reality is that most any 385hp GAS motor will blow the doors off this big boy diesel towing a load up hill, provided it has the chassis and gearing. Regardless of torque (we already know it makes enough torque at the necessary rpm to make 385 HP!) Because the gasser will likely weigh quite a bit less.
I just realized why this type of discussion always becomes circular

Diesel (D) people say TORQUE (T) pulls better (fact it does)

Gassers (G) say Horse Power (HP) is faster (Fact it is)

Given this example:
Two Ram 2500 (similar tow capacity) pulling a 30' trailer. One gas, One Diesel. Long flat stretch with long steep grade after.
D- motoring at 1700rpm and G-accelerates slightly anticipating the grade passing (HP) the D.
As grade increases D maintains speed/RPM (T) while G increases RPM (HP) and must eventually downshift/increase RPM or slow due to lack of pull (T) while D continues up grade (T) eventually passing G unless possibly G has foot through the floorboard and RPM's screaming (HP) where the grade eventually will slow it.
So who was better

Is a gasser faster, YES!
What works less hard pulling load? Diesel
Which is better for passing? Gasser
Which is better for steep long grades? Diesel

Neither will be "better" for the other person as they chose what was the BEST FIT for their equipment!

Just me 2cents

Travel safe guys!
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
DBinSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 09:09 PM   #273
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say.
Post 243 in this thread. Same vehicle, same weight, same trailer. Diesel had less hp, more torque. Gas engine went up the hill faster, with more hp, but less torque. Look up the published reference in that post to see the figures, donít just trust the post.

If the gas engine vehicle had slowed down to wait for the diesel, it would have been an even easier pull for it.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 09:16 PM   #274
Rivet Master
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
San Diego , California
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
Additionally, I would like to see ANY literature you can provide to say a gas vehicle can TOW a trailer or load up a hill easier or even faster than a diesel as you want to say. Along with ANYTHING that says HP not Torque is what pulls the load up hill.
You must have missed my earlier posts of diesel vs gas case studies. It doesn't get more apples to apples real than this.

Round 1:
Nissan Titan XD in diesel (310 hp / 555 tq) vs. Nissan Titan XD gas (390hp / 394tq) towing same 10,600lb trailer.
Gas is over 40 seconds faster to the top of the hill despite 161 less torque
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2081251

Round 2:
GMC Canyon diesel (181hp/369tq) vs. Chevy Colorado gas (308hp/275tq) towing same 6,100lb trailer.
Gas wins again, over 50 seconds faster to the top
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2082100
pteck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 09:22 PM   #275
Rivet Master
 
2016 28' International
Sioux Falls , SD
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
You must have missed my earlier posts of diesel vs gas case studies. It doesn't get more apples to apples real than this.

Round 1:
Nissan Titan XD in diesel (310 hp / 555 tq) vs. Nissan Titan XD gas (390hp / 394tq) towing same 10,600lb trailer.
Gas is over 40 seconds faster to the top of the hill despite 161 less torque
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2081251

Round 2:
GMC Canyon diesel (181hp/369tq) vs. Chevy Colorado gas (308hp/275tq) towing same 6,100lb trailer.
Gas wins again, over 50 seconds faster to the top
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2082100
I saw those.

Most Diesel people towing trailers are talking about full size trucks. Take a Ram 2500 Hemi vs Cummins or a full size Ford gas vs diesel. These trucks have significant HP to Torque range differences yet similar towing capacity.
__________________
2016 Int. Signature 28' w/ ProPride 3P-1400 Hitch
Mich. LTX w/ 16" Sendels, Centramatics
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Diesel, CG1800 Bed slide, Leer topper
Better to live one day a lion than a lifetime a sheep. Camp hard, camp often
DBinSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2018, 12:04 AM   #276
Rivet Master
 
SilverGate's Avatar
 
2007 23' Safari SE
San Diego , California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,495
The bottom line: Diesel holds its value over time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverGate View Post
Our 2006 F-250 4◊2 Crew Cab Super Duty XLT diesel truck is a thriving star that has dependably pulled our Airstream trailer to our favorite beach, mountain and desert campsites in San Diego County for the past 10 years, has only 22,728 miles on it and is still going strong!

A feeling of confidence is important to me when towing up and over our mountains to get to our favorite desert campsites!
Breaking news:

Just sold our 12 year old F-250 Super Duty diesel truck for $21,000.

(Retained 50% of its original value!)

See the article, "Diesel Truck Residual Values Rise With Mileage."

Now back to your regularly scheduled program with no further interruptions, except for the passing of the popcorn.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0297 F-250 profile at Agua Caliente.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	464.0 KB
ID:	307479  
__________________

SilverGate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2018, 07:23 AM   #277
Rivet Master
 
2019 30' International
Pennsylvania , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 833
Way too much fun reading this thread.

Diesel guy moving to gasser cuz his diesel went kaput to the tune of 6,000 dollars.

Gasser dude moving to diesel cuz gasser suckin' too much fuel, and can't pull to the top of Everest.

C'mon, everybody knows each has it's merits.

Can't say for a minute the diesel ain't badarse, and can tow a sheetton of weight, and the gasser just goes and goes, with an oil change every once in a while.

Torque and Horse and Horse and Torque.
Horse and Torque and Torque and Horse.
Torque and Horse and Horse and Torque.

hmmmmm.....a HORSE is a HORSE of COURSE OF COURSE if it's TORQUE and TORQUE is a TORQUE of COURSE if it's HORSE it's the TORQUE of COURSE unless the HORSE is the TORQUE of MR. ED.........awwwww never mind.
majorairhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2018, 07:25 AM   #278
Rivet Master
 
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Yea, the F150EB has plenty torque; I agree. I loved my F150 4x4 EB for pulling my 25' AS's while I logged 125K miles on her over 5 years. I see many folks here also pull larger AS's. But, I will say the F250 diesel provides unquestionable advantages over the F150EB for pulling larger AS's. The larger size, the automatic engine braking, and effortless power of pulling up/down/around even in hot weather while in automatic cruise mode is no comparison to the F150EB. I had my F150EB heat up a few times going up steep grades at highway speeds (like others have mentioned). I also had the brakes smoke, even manually downshifting when coming down long steep grade if I was not real careful. In 9 months of owning the F250, I have logged 25K miles;14K towing the AS. The driving sensation is not even close to what I experienced with my F150....and I loved my F150. If you have not tried the it, you should. Likely the F250 6.2gasser is a great truck also...without the diesel issues many have mentioned they "worry" about.
To second the motion.
I to used a 2012 F-150 with the 3.5 Ecoboost HD tow platinum. I towed our 30' International with it for 3 years and loved the truck. However I had the exact same experiences as you did. I could repeat your post word for word. the only thing I would add is that I also didn't like the feeling of the occasional tail wagging the dog. So when we got our 2017 30' Classic I decided to also upgrade to a F-250 Diesel in a large part because with the F-150 we were constantly overloaded. We rarely come across people going back the other way.
I will never go back to a lighter gas truck as long as I am towing period.
There is a reason why heavy trucks and construction equipment are driven exclusively by diesel engines. It isn't because astute businessman are hell bent on throwing money away.
franklyfrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2018, 07:30 AM   #279
Rivet Master

 
2019 30' Flying Cloud
Homosassa , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 690
I am yawning. Bottom line. Get what you want. Nobody really cares what you tow with and you can justify your choice if you like but if you're happy then just enjoy it and most importantly camp as much as you can towing the best way you can.
Tater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2018, 08:20 AM   #280
Moderator
 
moosetags's Avatar

 
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,455
Images: 5
I wholeheartedly agree with the above. Airstreams are about camping and enjoying life to the fullest. As long as it does the job for you, the Airstream's tow vehicle is a minor component. Just get out there and camp.

Brian
__________________
SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with HAHA
2020 Silverado 2500 (Vivian)
moosetags is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Single 15,000 btu verses dual A/c in FC 25' ljsigman Furnaces, Heaters, Fireplaces & Air Conditioning 16 02-01-2018 03:43 PM
FB verses RB Dwain 2005 and newer - Bambi all models 20 12-19-2017 06:19 PM
15 '' D rated verses 16'' E rated Tires hodges53 Tires 9 07-25-2014 07:16 PM
4 speed verses GV Chuckles Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 19 06-06-2010 10:19 PM
Tongue weight verses tongue height - level the WD hitch? HowieE Hitches, Couplers & Balls 12 11-17-2007 01:02 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.