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Old 03-28-2018, 06:48 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Troutboy View Post
Pteck, so in your opinion then, there isn’t really a situation where a diesel is preferred as a TV? There are gas and diesel options for any TT situation? It’s more of a personal preference?
It might seem it, but I'm not against diesels. They certainly have their pros, and cons just like any motor/drivetrain. There's no blanket architecture or quality that makes one absolutely better than the other in all cases. And sometimes, the right answer comes down to the individual, their needs, and preferences. To boil it down to "diesel is more better", is absolutely shortsighted and the way some individuals use "torque" shows they don't even fundamentally understand the term.

What I'm saying is that each powertrain, whether gas or diesel, should be evaluated on its own merits. I'll agree, some gas engines are light on torque, especially at low rpms. This is where it's important to understand peak torque rpm, and overall gearing for the platform. To jcl's point, turbo motors typically have more midrange punch. But not all turbo motors are the same, with some being smaller and weaker, and hence thirstier with load. Most manufacturers have big naturally aspirated V8s (5.6L++). These bruisers have ample torque and power. But at the same time, not all are pleasant when accessing their peak hp. Some sound like a blender at 4k+ rpm which causes some to think diesel, whereas other manufacturers mills run like a fine sewing machine.

Diesels come with some demerits too. I always find it funny when individuals claim "engine braking" yet don't realize their smaller diesels are not outfitted with any real engine braking. Whereas any gas motor will have legitimate compression engine braking. And there's the weight penalty, DEF, blah blah.

Yet for some, diesel is a great answer, especially for those that don't need to dual purpose their vehicles, are under tow majority of the time, and can afford the big boy 450hp+ and 800ft-lbs+ diesels. Anything less, and that ecoboost 3.5L or big block NA V8 with 400hp+ and far less weight will beat it to the top of the hill. No joke.

And probably evaluated along with the platform.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:02 PM   #242
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Could that be most new trucks have a turbo diesel?
If you mean 3/4 and 1 ton, then yes, many do. Not many N/A diesels around these days. But that was my point. Many of the comments about attributes of those diesel engines, claimed to be diesel benefits, are more accurately described as turbo benefits.

And if you look at smaller diesels, you will see more power out of the gas versions of those trucks. The gas versions, in the half tons, for instance, do compare to the diesels in the same trucks in many aspects.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:32 PM   #243
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As another comparison of diesel vs gas. Midsize trucks towing 6,100lbs.

2017 GMC Canyon diesel vs. 2017 Chevy Colorado V6 gas

Duramax Diesel 2.8L (181hp/369ft-lbs) vs. Gas 3.6L (308hp/275 ft-lbs)

4,488 lbs vs 3,936 curb weight respectively

To the top of the Ike Guantlet:

9:11.50 minutes vs 8:18.92 minutes.

Gasoline for the quicker time. No turbo necessary.

Because horsepower. And weight.

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Old 03-28-2018, 07:46 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by pteck View Post
As another comparison of diesel vs gas. Midsize trucks towing 6,100lbs.

2017 GMC Canyon diesel vs. 2017 Chevy Colorado V6 gas

Duramax Diesel 2.8L (181hp/369ft-lbs) vs. Gas 3.6L (308hp/275 ft-lbs)

4,488 lbs vs 3,936 curb weight respectively

To the top of the Ike Guantlet:

9:11.50 minutes vs 8:18.92 minutes.

Gasoline for the quicker time. No turbo necessary.

Because horsepower. And weight.
But just to compare two engines of similar displacement, the 2.8 diesel with 181 hp and 369 ft-lbs comes up short on output when compared to the Ecoboost 2.7 litre with 325 hp and 400 ft-lbs. It isn’t about the fuel type.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:46 PM   #245
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Love these forms and all the chest thumping about how powerful MY truck is!
Buy a diesel so you can tow a trailer up a 6 mile 6% grade faster than a gas.
Diesel at 60 MPH thats 6 minutes.
Gas at 45 MPH thats 8 minutes.
2 minutes. Wow! Been there done that $$$$$$$$$$$$- not anymore.
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Old 03-29-2018, 11:48 AM   #246
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[QUOTE=jcl;2081973]I would spend more time thinking about turbocharged vs naturally aspirated, than gas vs diesel. A forced induction engine won’t lose as much power at higher altitudes, and can develop its power at a lower rpm. My twin turbo 3 litre gas engine (not an Ecoboost) hit peak torque at 1300 rpm and held it. Great tow vehicle engine.

So many of the comments on diesel characteristics on this forum are really talking about turbocharged engine characteristics. Many current generation diesel owners have never seen a naturally aspirated Diesel engine.[/QUOTE]

And how would you know this? Speak for yourself on this claim. The thread is Gas vs. Diesel. This to mean open season to any type of engine as long as gas or diesel is being used. I think it is great that you are happy w/your 3.0L twin turbo gas engine, more power to you, not sure what you are towing or have towed? However it appears it works for you. Personally I do not care who tow's w/what. It's their money not mine.

What is of interest for me and I presume many in this thread are the opinions and experiences of both sides of gas and fuel being used as w/the engine types being used. It is a discussion between users of both. Me, I spent the better part of my 40 years towing w/big block gas never having issue. Last truck for us in this life, we are extremely happy w/we have now and that works for us.

Best regards and safe travels
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:03 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJim View Post
Love these forms and all the chest thumping about how powerful MY truck is!
Buy a diesel so you can tow a trailer up a 6 mile 6% grade faster than a gas.
Diesel at 60 MPH thats 6 minutes.
Gas at 45 MPH thats 8 minutes.
2 minutes. Wow! Been there done that $$$$$$$$$$$$- not anymore.
You may be interested in the 2 minutes, we care nothing of the 2 minutes. "Chest thumping", interesting perception on your part.

For us we like going 600 miles between fuel stops. My wife wants to know if this chest thumping?

Best regards and safe travels
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:45 PM   #248
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We don't really want to drive more than 300 miles in a day, and we have to stop anyway to take our pup out for walks, so yeah, saying one likes to go 600 miles between fuel stops is kinda like chest thumping.

That said, the potential number of miles that can be traveled on a single tank of fuel is a likely difference between gas & diesel. If we were evaluating a vehicle we wouldn't care much about that, but it's a difference that should be noted.
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:56 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
I would spend more time thinking about turbocharged vs naturally aspirated, than gas vs diesel. A forced induction engine won’t lose as much power at higher altitudes, and can develop its power at a lower rpm. My twin turbo 3 litre gas engine (not an Ecoboost) hit peak torque at 1300 rpm and held it. Great tow vehicle engine.

So many of the comments on diesel characteristics on this forum are really talking about turbocharged engine characteristics. Many current generation diesel owners have never seen a naturally aspirated Diesel engine.
And how would you know this? Speak for yourself on this claim. The thread is Gas vs. Diesel. This to mean open season to any type of engine as long as gas or diesel is being used. ....

What is of interest for me and I presume many in this thread are the opinions and experiences of both sides of gas and fuel being used as w/the engine types being used. It is a discussion between users of both.
Sorry, I thought it was clear I was speaking for myself. Aren't any non-referenced statements here simply opinions? In my case, my comment was based on over three decades in the business, from an independent garage, to a Ford dealer, to a diesel engine distributor, to a company developing alternate fuel (NG) versions of Cummins and other engines. In the distributor role, I didn't sell many N/A diesels, but there were some. Usually a 3208 in a delivery van.

Perhaps I should have said many current generation diesel owners haven't driven a naturally aspirated diesel engine for comparison.

You wanted opinions and experiences about both gas and diesel engines. I simply said that many comments (from observation here) are confusing the issue of gas engines compared to diesel engines by not acknowledging the forced induction vs naturally aspirated characteristics. When someone goes from a naturally aspirated gas engine to a turbocharged diesel engine, and raves about the torque coming in at a lower rpm, they are often not acknowledging the contribution of the turbocharger in that experience.

I think it is interesting when people comment about an experience with a turbocharged gasoline engine with high torque at low rpm and call it "diesel-like" torque.
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Old 03-29-2018, 01:53 PM   #250
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No it isn't. I have plenty of "engine braking" with my gasoline engine and have had no trouble towing our 28' Airstream up and down over the Rockies and any other mountain range we've encountered. I appreciate and respect that you enjoy driving your diesel-powered rig. That's awesome, especially given what it costs to get into one. However, don't try to tell me the rig I'm happy with is somehow insufficient to the need when I already know for a fact that it does the job admirably, under every condition we've thrown at it for over four years.
Yea, the F150EB has plenty torque; I agree. I loved my F150 4x4 EB for pulling my 25' AS's while I logged 125K miles on her over 5 years. I see many folks here also pull larger AS's. But, I will say the F250 diesel provides unquestionable advantages over the F150EB for pulling larger AS's. The larger size, the automatic engine braking, and effortless power of pulling up/down/around even in hot weather while in automatic cruise mode is no comparison to the F150EB. I had my F150EB heat up a few times going up steep grades at highway speeds (like others have mentioned). I also had the brakes smoke, even manually downshifting when coming down long steep grade if I was not real careful. In 9 months of owning the F250, I have logged 25K miles;14K towing the AS. The driving sensation is not even close to what I experienced with my F150....and I loved my F150. If you have not tried the it, you should. Likely the F250 6.2gasser is a great truck also...without the diesel issues many have mentioned they "worry" about.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:03 PM   #251
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When the time comes to replace our RAM 1500 we will certainly look at 3/4 ton trucks because of higher load capacity. At that time we’ll also evaluate engine options on vehicles configured for towing. That’ll be fun!
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:03 PM   #252
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Love these forms and all the chest thumping about how powerful MY truck is!
Buy a diesel so you can tow a trailer up a 6 mile 6% grade faster than a gas.
Diesel at 60 MPH thats 6 minutes.
Gas at 45 MPH thats 8 minutes.
2 minutes. Wow! Been there done that $$$$$$$$$$$$- not anymore.
If the 385 hp gas engine takes longer to get up the hill than a 385 hp Diesel engine that is a driver issue.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:15 PM   #253
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If the 385 hp gas engine takes longer to get up the hill than a 385 hp Diesel engine that is a driver issue.


It would be a torque difference.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:19 PM   #254
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Gas verses Diesel Tow Vehicle

We demand automatic engine torque braking horsepower and 900 miles per tank of whatever fuel it burns. Until then, we will keep right on using the “Fred & Barney” method to get up and down the mountains, especially when hitting a tight turn on the downhill side.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:24 PM   #255
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We demand automatic engine torque braking horsepower and 900 miles per tank of whatever fuel it burns. Until then, we will keep right on using the “Fred & Barney” method to get up and down the mountains, especially when hitting a tight turn on the downhill side.


You got it!

In the end it is like a carpenter and his tools. A good one that knows his tools well can make anything. One that does not, is severely handicapped with everything.

Be safe !
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:35 PM   #256
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It would be a torque difference.
Torque has NOTHING to do with speed pulling a load steady state up a hill. NOTHING.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:41 PM   #257
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Torque has NOTHING to do with speed pulling a load steady state up a hill. NOTHING.


You should look up the difference between the two when pulling load, especially up hill.
One works significantly less hard.
I’ll let you figure out which one it is.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:55 PM   #258
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HP tells you speed up the hill. TQ only tells you if you’ll make it.

Neither one is important today as nearly all TVs have 300/300 power (HP/TQ).

Might as well argue paint color, for its importance.
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Old 03-29-2018, 05:00 PM   #259
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Neither one is important today as nearly all TVs have 300/300 power (HP/TQ).
2017 6.7L cummins is 385HP @2800RPM & 900 lb-ft (Torque) @ 1700RPM

newer is even more.
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Old 03-29-2018, 05:15 PM   #260
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Torque has NOTHING to do with speed pulling a load steady state up a hill. NOTHING.
It has MOST to do with it. Hopefully you will read this.

This should help you out:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...us-torque4.htm

Regards
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