Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-09-2020, 12:12 PM   #61
4 Rivet Member
 
2017 22' Sport
North Bay , California
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 300
Images: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
PHEVs are a stopgap. Some manufacturers have called this out, and said that they won't be investing in development of hybrids because, as you say, they are complex, expensive, and most people don't need them.
FWIW, FCEVs have the exact same problem. People love to talk about hydrogen, but they're an EV with less power, a longer and dirtier supply chain, and no clear future.
ohmman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2020, 01:30 PM   #62
Rivet Master
 
1969 18' Caravel
Greenville , whereEverIroam
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,126
Images: 20
I wouldn't discount hydrogen fuel cell technology just yet. Yes, in the relative short term BEVs have an advantage in that much of the supporting infrastructure is already in place or is relatively easy to install.

Hydrogen could be very cleanly produced via electrolysis powered by renewables like wind, solar, tidal, etc. It is the most abundant element in the universe. And if they ever get fusion viably working...

The challenges with a hydrogen are largely infrastructure, but while this challenge is not insurmountable, it is certainly less cost effective than simple charging stations. However, the time to refuel a HFCV could be comparable to today's gas stations, but it is unlikely to match the convenience of charging a BEV at home overnight.

HFCs could be used to balance out the smart grid of the future, providing stored energy for surges, at night or on calm days, for instance. Future long-haul vehicles may utilize some sort of hybrid FC / battery to run the electric motors.

I think we are in some ways at the same crossroads as a century earlier when both gas and electric vehicles were vying for market share, only today, BEVs are farther along than HFCV.

BTW, I always thought a Fuel Cell RV would be a great application. Hydrogen fuel tanks have to be quite large in volume to contain the same energy as fossil fuels, a challenge for motor vehicles, less so for a trailer. FCs emit water as exhaust and give off heat: Hello! pure H2O plus free water heater, or heat to run ammonia fridge, etc.

This very technology was in existence and used effectively over 50 years ago in the Apollo Program. The CSM was powered entirely by fuel cell tech, and the astronauts had a water supply from the FCs
skyguyscott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2020, 02:42 PM   #63
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot View Post
I didn't say that Europe was pushing them. Hybrids are a result to meet the requirements for emissions. Which shouldn't be the case. Yes it's a stop gap in this lunacy of emissions. Hopefully this won't come to NA. But with our current government and the idiot's that keep electing them we may not be far behind.

https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/...hicles/cars_en

It doesn't go into a lot details, but the penalties are extreme.
What I read in your comment was that Euro emissions policies were such that they can only be met with hybrids. This is the point I disagreed with. Some manufacturers, who have failed to invest in other new technologies, are relying on expensive, heavy, complicated hybrids. Others aren't bothering. Take a look at the link you provided. The emissions regulations are fleet averages, with a variety of tools available to achieve compliance. Some manufacturers are developing and offering compelling low emissions vehicles. Others are trying to make their existing products more compliant by adding hybrid features. Still others don't have much of a plan at all, and so are negotiating manufacturing pools with other companies building low emission vehicles (looking at you, FCA).

Flame suit on, but I don't think the emissions rules are lunacy. What is lunacy IMO is a government backing off previously issued and agreed regulations and thus driving up development costs by asking manufacturers to build different products for different geographic markets. All by way of saying that there are tighter emissions rules coming to North America, but if some have their way, they will be on a state by state basis.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2020, 02:49 PM   #64
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmman View Post
FWIW, FCEVs have the exact same problem. People love to talk about hydrogen, but they're an EV with less power, a longer and dirtier supply chain, and no clear future.
I like hydrogen. But then, I live in the same city as Ballard, I know some of their people, and I hired a lot of smart people away from that program. I won't buy a Hydrogen FCEV today, but I don't mind companies developing them. They only make sense if we use a clean source of electricity to produce the hydrogen. Making it from natural gas is silly IMO.

There is so much development focused on new battery technology that I think batteries will win for the bulk of transportation applications, particularly in the personal transportation space. That is fine. But FCEVs may have a part of the market, whether for reasons of range, packaging, weight, or what ever.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 01:38 PM   #65
2 Rivet Member
 
Cincinnati , Ohio
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
Please see Post #5. The 8 million Ford Transits on the road, in a wide variety of payload packages, are ample testimony to the fact that Ford could put a huge battery in this new vehicle, and more or less eliminate any "range" issues IMO. Yes, the available payload might go down. Ford will work out the details.

This van will rock, with very little new design work needed.

Peter

PS -- Bingo!
Obviously we are all speculating. Time will tell. In the meantime, any maker will need to nail down not only range, but also payload capacity and trailering capacity. I figure someone here is clever enough to figure out how to use the 2-300 mile range to get where they want, and then using some sort of recharge mechanism, recharge using a 110 outlet or better yet, solar, to spend the weekend recharging in order to get home.

I agree that there is diesel fatigue so I know there will be EV recharge fatigue. When I was heading west and in the middle of No-Mans-Land I was sweating finding diesel at 1/2 tank full. I couldn’t imagine looking for an available EV station that was A: available and B: wouldn’t be a problem for me to squat there for an hour out three to recharge myself.

With all of this said - the use case for the EV and trailering will likely be to locales that are 200 miles or less round trip and with a trailer capacity of <5,000. The upside, all of that brake work will make for some recharging while driving and slowing down the truck and trailer. I would imagine these numbers will improve nicely over the next decade with battery improvements, as will recharge tech and availability of that tech.
jwpaquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 02:14 PM   #66
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwpaquette View Post
. . .
With all of this said - the use case for the EV and trailering will likely be to locales that are 200 miles or less round trip and with a trailer capacity of <5,000.
. . .
Have you read ohmman's Tesla Model X Towing thread?

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f46...-x-160951.html

A good read, which challenges the broad brush comments above IMO.

Moreover, the existing Ford Transit payload packages could easily handle a huge battery for longer range. See Posts #5 and #8:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
I imagine all the details will come out in the next year or so.

Keep in mind that the Transit platform has supplied over 8 million vans in Europe and the USA over the last few decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Transit

This platform comes in a variety of lengths and roof heights, with DRW as an option. There are dozens of payload packages, with the familiar Ford van categories of 150, 250 and 350. We have a 350, single rear wheel drive, and I seem to recall it can tow a 6,000 trailer. The DRW packages have larger tow ratings.

Suffice it to say, that putting large lithium batteries under the floor of the new all-electric Transit should be effortless.
. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
Please see Post #5. The 8 million Ford Transits on the road, in a wide variety of payload packages, are ample testimony to the fact that Ford could put a huge battery in this new vehicle, and more or less eliminate any "range" issues IMO. Yes, the available payload might go down. Ford will work out the details.
. . .
Happy trails,

Peter
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 02:37 PM   #67
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
I don't think it would be effortless for the OE manufacturer to add a huge amount of battery capacity to the new BEV Transit. The battery packs would be (relatively) heavy and thus they would absolutely reduce payload capacity. They would be expensive compared to a more modest battery pack. And importantly, there may be supply constraints that limit the manufacturer. If they want to sell BEV Transits, and have a limited number of batteries, they would choose to sell three low range vans instead of one long range one, IMO. Look at the vehicle deliveries currently challenged by battery supply chains.

Towing with vans is interesting to some of us, but it is far from mainstream. When they develop a BEV van, it will be with the goal of widespread adoption, not niche marketing. All IMO. The solution might actually be an aftermarket conversion with additional battery capacity, just as some companies built 4wd versions of vans when the manufacturer didn't see a sufficient market opportunity to make it worthwhile.

I am more interested in the current rapid development of medium duty truck platforms as BEVs. These don't necessarily support towing, they are more likely to lead to small motorhomes or Super C vehicles. The Freightliner EM2 would make a great platform, and I would focus on that as an alternative to hoping that a manufacturer adds significant battery capacity to a vehicle that they describe as a last mile package delivery vehicle.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 06:44 PM   #68
Rivet Master

 
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Hendersonville , North Carolina
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 838
EV Vans for towing/commercial applications

All this talk about fully electric vans and GM just announced it was going to install the new 6.6 gasser (available in the GM pickups) in the Chevrolet Express/GMC Savana cargo and passenger vans. Fantastic!!!

A proven, long term (25 years in production, mostly unchanged) design that just keeps on getting the job done. Sales are way up over the past several years since Ford quit building the regular E series vans (replaced with the T150/T250/T350 vans that have no frame and dismal tow ratings, especially the Wagon version). Go figure.

We currently tow our 25' Flying Cloud RBT with a 2013 Ford E150 XLT Premium van. I will be pricing out and probably ordering a new Express/Savana 2500 sometime this year. The Ford tows great, but 401 H.P. and over 450 LB FT of torque available with the 6.6 ICE will tow the 30 Flying Cloud when we upgrade in a couple years.

Long Live the Gasser!!!!
uraljohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 10:25 PM   #69
4 Rivet Member
 
2017 22' Sport
North Bay , California
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 300
Images: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
I like hydrogen...

...They only make sense if we use a clean source of electricity to produce the hydrogen. Making it from natural gas is silly IMO.

There is so much development focused on new battery technology that I think batteries will win for the bulk of transportation applications, particularly in the personal transportation space. That is fine. But FCEVs may have a part of the market, whether for reasons of range, packaging, weight, or what ever.
Trimmed some of your post for the quote, but I agree generally. I was meaning for personal transportation - I think fuel cells have a stationary application in our future, especially colocated with solar and wind. They have the potential for local freight and bus applications, where distributed refueling networks are unnecessary as well. But for personal transportation, I think it's clear they don't have much of a future. A good question someone once pointed out to me is this - FCEVs have a battery. Why do you think they don't include the ability to charge that battery from wall power? Because owners would quickly realize that's a more convenient and reasonable way to fuel up.

For now, we have a large need for hydrogen for industry. That hydrogen is steam-reformed with natural gas. First, we have to create hydrogen by electrolysis. Then, we have to replace all of that foolishly made hydrogen with the clean stuff. At that point, we can discuss if it makes more sense to use hydrogen for stationary storage or create a distribution network for personal transportation. My guess is BEV at that point is going to be really far ahead.
ohmman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 10:29 PM   #70
Rivet Master
 
waninae39's Avatar

 
2017 22' Sport
NCR , Ontario
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,557
ballard is still around.
not so much in the news as they were 10 years ago
https://www.ballard.com/

many buses run off hydrogen
waninae39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 10:53 PM   #71
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by waninae39 View Post
Ballard is still around.
Mot so much in the news as they were 10 years ago
https://www.ballard.com/

Many buses run off hydrogen
Ballard are close by me here in Vancouver. I know people working there.

All of their hydrogen bus business is export.

The last hydrogen buses in BC were here for the 2010 Olympics, and were sold off in 2014.

We have a very large fleet of electric buses locally (with trolley wires) and a test fleet of battery powered buses.

We also have two public (Shell) hydrogen fueling stations for passenger cars, and five under construction, just no buses.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2021, 12:23 PM   #72
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,551
2022 Ford E-Transit van

Anyone have one of these yet?

https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/2022/

Charging details:

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content...t_Charging.pdf

Largest public charging network in North America?
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2021, 02:33 PM   #73
Living Riveted since 2013
 
Rocinante's Avatar

 
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs , Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,455
Blog Entries: 1
Most likely not yet, given range targets for their initial focus on local delivery / work vans:
"We ... designed E-Transit with a targeted 126 miles of range (Cargo Van low-roof models)."

"Which size battery does the all-electric Transit have? The E-Transit has usable capacity of 67kWh from its 400V lithium-ion battery."
But maybe some day soon!
"Can you add more battery capacity to meet strong demand? We will have more to announce about additional offerings for range and capability at a later date."
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")


Rocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2021, 03:42 AM   #74
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,551
Thumbs up

Thanks for finding those details . . . I didn't have time yesterday.
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2018 Ford Transit 3500 diesel Firedog1 Tow Vehicles 9 03-08-2018 11:55 AM
Towing with Ford Transit TGK Tow Vehicles 31 11-04-2016 11:51 AM
Anyone Tow with a Ford Transit Van? explore more Towing, Tow Vehicles & Hitches 18 09-25-2016 10:02 PM
Ford Transit Van V-10 Denis4x4 Tow Vehicles 9 12-18-2012 07:55 PM
TriMetric 2020/2021 shunt - 100 or 500 amp? ostream Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 3 11-06-2008 02:37 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.