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Old 03-06-2020, 01:06 PM   #41
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Here's a great article from Consumer Reports that talks about electric vehicles. It's answered a lot of questions for me.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybr...c-vehicle-faq/

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Old 03-06-2020, 01:30 PM   #42
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And please dont start with it being more eco friendly because at the end of day all things considered you gain nothing in that regard over a modern ICE engine.
You are fact-challenged.

For your comment on environmental impact to be true
* we could generate our BEV electricity with automotive engines, with their associated 30% efficiency. We could convert to Powerstroke or Duranax power stations perhaps. Lots of them.
* we could invent an ICE Powertrain that is as efficient as a single spur gear as used by a BEV.
* we could turn of all hydro, wind, and solar generation
* we could disable all BEV regenerative braking, so as to create a level playing field
* we could invent a way of refining our gasoline and diesel for transportation use that has less or no environmental impact, since power stations donít use highly refined fuels.
* we could invent a way to distribute our transportation fuels as cleanly as we do electrical power on the grid

See the issues?
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Old 03-06-2020, 01:51 PM   #43
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And ?

All it solves is the weight problem. In return for a lot of money, they are expensive.
Charging and unrelible range will remain a constant issue.
So why go through all this nonsense ?
And please dont start with it being more eco friendly because at the end of day all things considered you gain nothing in that regard over a modern ICE engine.
And we havent even considered constructing the vast infrastructure needed for recharging.
This is all driven by politics . A world of bs lacking common sense.
At 76 years of age, you have seen a great deal of change over your lifetime. Consider the cost and technology of computers, which when you were a child filled entire rooms and required constant changing of vacuum tubes and only governments could afford them. Today, what is in your pocket can out-compute those mammoth machines.

I hope you live many more years and that they are enjoyable for you. While it is sometimes true that it is difficult to teach an old dog new tricks, with enough patience and a willing-to-learn dog, I believe it's possible. And you are a man, not a dog. Neuroscientists researching the aging brain report surprising levels of plasticity and cognition well into our aging years.

So, let me address some of your concerns.

The surveyed results of reliability on actual EV's is on par with ICE vehicles, the variability of which correlates with the reliability of other vehicles from the same manufacturer. So, in other words, a GM vehicle will be about as reliable as other GMs, and Hondas will be Hondas.

Charging stations continue to expand everyday. There will be more on-line next month, and the month after. Yet studies show 80% of charging is still done at home.

According to actuary tables, it's unlikely you will be around to see the worst effects of climate change, but already I have witnessed first hand how even in the Contenetal USA, winters have noticeably changed from my own childhood. The permafrost in Alaska has turned villages into swampland, and this is just since 1988. There is no evidence to support the claim that the climate isn't changing, and mountains of data that show global average tempetkres continue to rise, and the chemistry indicates that it will continue to rise for decades hence, even if we were to stop carbon emissions today.

Solar panels and wind turbines actually generate electricity. They do so without carbon emissions. Building more will generate more electricity. The monetary costs to build more is on par with carbon emitting fossil fuel plants, and far, far less than nuclear power plants while avoid generating radioactive waste that remains lethal for millennia. Yes, these technologies are not yet able to adjust output, but clever engineers are working on solutions like battery banks or even water pumping and storage.

All large infrastructure that benefits society is either helped or hindered by government. In our democracy, we all theoretically have a voice in the direction we go, as we all share the same environment and have a stake in the outcome.
The fossil fuel industry has a century- long track record of legislative influence going back even before Tea Pot Dome. Are you at all aware of the history of Louisiana state politics, for just one example? So yes of course politics plays a role, your point here is...?

I hope you have many more happy years of Airstreaming. If your current ICE TV is running well, keep it. If you are in the market for an new TV, they still sell ICE TVs at just about any dealership nearby you.
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Old 03-06-2020, 01:55 PM   #44
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Here are three quotes that have aged like fine milk. Most people, when they've made claims with the confidence of an expert, then been proven wrong, will bow out of future discussions on the same topic. At the least, they will check their confidence at the door and approach the topic with a modicum of humility.
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
300 Mile range with an electric? I never heard of one.
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
EV will never dominate. Tesla's entire business model is built on tax subsidies. If they were eliminated Teslas stock would tank over night.
(Subsidies gone this year, how'd that tanking stock prediction work out?)
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Without subsidies sales would diminish to unsustainable levels.
(Subsidies gone, record deliveries)
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Old 03-06-2020, 02:27 PM   #45
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Here are three quotes that have aged like fine milk. Most people, when they've made claims with the confidence of an expert, then been proven wrong, will bow out of future discussions on the same topic. At the least, they will check their confidence at the door and approach the topic with a modicum of humility.
Agreed.

Here is one of my all time favourites from frank.

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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
This electrically driven quest began 140 years ago and hasn't moved much further along.
I thought of this oft repeated claim when reviewing the GM Ultium battery details just announced. Photo below of GM's new platform. Modular. Revised chemistry. Built in battery management. Planned for use in GM trucks at 800 volts and 350 kw charging. Up to 100 miles in 10 minutes of charging.

Seems to me it has moved a little since the days of the 1914 Detroit Electric (second photo).

GM announcement here: https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...r/0304-ev.html

See the PDF fact sheets at that link addressing Vehicle Charging, and EV Architecture for upcoming GM vehicles.

Details on the announced 10 GM EV vehicles (including trucks and SUVs) here: https://electrek.co/2020/03/04/gm-re...-to-400-miles/
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Old 03-06-2020, 02:28 PM   #46
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Well, if you have a Volt in the State of Illinois and that is where the car is titled and licensed, that is a PHEV and not subject to qualifying for the EV plate that initially cost between $15-$35 and will now be about $250.

Volt as with all passenger vehicles had the standard plate that was about $102 going up to $150, but that increase is all passenger vehicles. It's cars that are pure EV that are going to $250. There is an exemption in the law for cars like Volt because they have a backup generator that runs on gas and the car is rated at between 35-53 miles (depending on what gen/model year) of range per charge, which makes them not legally eligible for the EV plate that all pure EVer are gonna see at there renewal with the monster increase beyond the $50 or so the average passenger vehicle will see.
Well, that's good news! I assumed phevs were included. I'm only at about 50% lifetime electric, as I use it for regional road trips. So I am paying road tax, just only about 50% my share.
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Old 03-06-2020, 02:30 PM   #47
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. . .
. . . and approach the topic with a modicum of humility.

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Old 03-06-2020, 02:30 PM   #48
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I am also a conservative. Evs are fun. And cost less to operate. Helping with carbon emissions is just a plus for me.
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I have to say, that comparing being stranded by a 12v battery to a modern EV is like comparing apples to rhinos. It's not even in the same universe, let alone same street.

Also when you make generalizations like this, it defines your character.

I am a conservative and I drive an electric car as a daily driver. By your definition, I am an ECO crazy lacking all common sense. Ok, let's look at it. Also my comments here are not about towing with and EV (though I do see it not only possible but highly probable in the future), just as a daily driver with some longer haul trips...and I get that EVs or PHEVs are not for everyone.

Comparative to the V8 daily driver my electric car replaced, I have saved around $5k in fuel costs (already reduced by my electric costs of .15/day to go 40 miles) in about 8 years time. That's conservatively $50/mo factoring gas price of $2/gallon. I keep my cars for over 10 years, and so you do the math. This doesn't even take into consideration nearly zero oil changes (EVs still need this every 50k to $75k miles for the elec drive unit), zero tune ups, zero trans maint. I bought the car preowned and it was nearly 1/2 off new and have all the comforts my old car had with virtually no compromises just a bit less power (and fuel costs). So yea, you're right, I must be crazy, lacking all common sense.
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Old 03-06-2020, 02:48 PM   #49
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Another angle on the growth in EVs

So, let's say that one is not at all interested in BEVs. ICE vehicles, and possibly HD trucks, work great today. All fine and good.

But there is a significant shift happening in the automotive industry, whether one likes it or not. It won't shake out today, or tomorrow, but it could look quite different 5 years down the road. And the manufacturers know it.

If one is devoted to a traditional ICE vehicle, do you expect the availability of that vehicle (and in future, things like warranty and parts for it) to be unaffected?

Which of the major automakers will survive this upheaval? Which ones won't?

I suggest that it is worth evaluating that, especially for those who plan to keep a tow vehicle for a long time.

Ford was going to offer a hybrid F150. That got ramped up to a full BEV F150, as well as the Mustang BEV SUV. The BEV Transit is going up against the Amazon BEV delivery van.

GM has pulled back from hybrids, and is going big on BEVs. That includes pickups and SUVs, as well as Cadillacs. It is clear where their investment dollars are going for the next few years, and in contrast, where they aren't going.

We had Jeep. Then RAM owning Jeep. Then Fiat owning RAM. Now the merger resulting in PSA-FCA instead of Fiat.
Peugeot/Citroen/Opel/Vauxall/Fiat/Alfa/Chrysler/RAM/Jeep will have the former head of Peugeot as chairman. Not sure how that will play out for RAM.

FCA has struggled with challenges around emissions. They pooled their fleet with Tesla to get emissions credits to avoid paying fines, until they develop cleaner vehicles. That isn't a sustainable strategy.

My point is that even if one never wants a BEV, and is happy with the current offerings, the situation is likely to change. I recall a family friend who always bought large Ford rwd sedans. He didn't want anything different. Then they quit making them.
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Old 03-06-2020, 03:01 PM   #50
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Here's a great article from Consumer Reports that talks about electric vehicles. It's answered a lot of questions for me.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybr...c-vehicle-faq/

Jack
That is funny. Guess you didn't know that Consumer reports loved the Tesla brand for its Model S beginnings and then turned against Tesla when the "big three" put pressure on Consumer reports to "knock it off. They've been writing bad reports ever since. The article is not even factual.

My battery over the years has increased its range through software upgrades with it going from 293 to 312 and now 326, not decreased as the article says. It has a 10-year warranty that if Consumer reports were correct, I would get a battery replacement for free.

The Nissan leaf and the Pris have very different batteries and Consumer reports lump all of these together as to have issues. The Tesla batteries are state-of-the-art in the electric car industry. I would not lump them into the same category.

That article is biased from the beginning.

GM is finally getting into the electric vehicle business and has made a large commitment to the Lordstown plant in OHIO (close to my hometown) to build their battery plant. I don't believe Ford has done this yet. Workhorse motors will be building their electric trucks at this plant. Rumors say they will get the contract for the US mail trucks! GM then buys workhorse and GM is in the Electric truck business. GM sold the plant to Workhorse basically for a cut in Workhorses profits. You might say GM owns Workhorse already.
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Old 03-07-2020, 08:15 AM   #51
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And ?

All it solves is the weight problem. In return for a lot of money, they are expensive.
Charging and unrelible range will remain a constant issue.
So why go through all this nonsense ?
And please dont start with it being more eco friendly because at the end of day all things considered you gain nothing in that regard over a modern ICE engine.
And we havent even considered constructing the vast infrastructure needed for recharging.
This is all driven by politics . A world of bs lacking common sense.
It is a lot of money. And it creates a lot of jobs pollution and isn't necessarily better for the environment not to mention the child labour. But it creates a whole new industry.

The technology is complicated and expensive. Isn't going to last long before needing to be replaced which will mean more money. Not to mention that you are held ransom to your automotive manufacturer for spares. I doubt that there will be a whole world of 3rd party suppliers and repair places based on how complicated the production of these are. If you find one though and I'm sure they will spring up I wouldn't trust them. You have no idea what actually goes into the production and testing of these products.

For me this is a job. I'm not sure I like it yet, but I've been involved with automotive engineering and manufacturing on and off now for 30 years and it just gets more and more complicated and expensive.

I liked the solar industry much better. Mostly for the travel and the engineering. It also isn't that clean. If you saw the pollution our plant created making the ingots you'd be appalled. So then we sold that plant and just bought in the silicon wafers instead. Much better.

Everything comes down to money. Solar wasn't any different. We set up plants for anyone that wanted to go into this business. Just come up with the money provide the building and we did the rest. Now we are leveraging that for building batteries. Although much of the constraints and engineering come from the automotive companies, it is a partnership. We can provide everything. So far we've worked with and for many of the main players.

Personally I wouldn't buy one, although my type of commute would lend itself perfectly to this. I like my diesels and I don't want to be held hostage to some company. That being said buying a new car today means that there is a lot of technology in your car. The likely hood of you fixing electronic related issues are slim. Heck the dealerships can't even fix them if it isn't a simple replacement of a module. So guess what, you're just going to give up and buy another. That's the world we've created. For me I'm trying to hold onto my relics. But if everyone did that I'd be out of work and so would a lot if others. So but new and embrace the new world.
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Old 03-07-2020, 08:37 AM   #52
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We tow of trailer with a medium height, medium length Transit with the 3.7 and tow package. The van Works great. I built up a bed where one can stretch out while the other person drives. Behind the divider our tandem bike and my dirt bike fit with plenty of room left for gear bags, etc. An e Transit would need a good range here in the intermountain west. Interesting to see what the range is towing.
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Old 03-07-2020, 09:31 AM   #53
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That being said buying a new car today means that there is a lot of technology in your car. The likely hood of you fixing electronic related issues are slim. Heck the dealerships can't even fix them if it isn't a simple replacement of a module.
My 2019 F250 Diesel has been in the shop for about ten days because of an electrical issue. On Friday they called and said its now DOA. The local dealer is now waiting for Ford Corporate to try to reboot it. They said "maybe" we'll know more by next Tuesday. That'll be two weeks minimum because my turn signals were acting up and the dash error messages were flashing crazy messages on a truck that's been around for decades. I don't think I'd be an early adopter of a Ford EV.
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Old 03-07-2020, 11:53 AM   #54
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My 2019 F250 Diesel has been in the shop for about ten days because of an electrical issue. On Friday they called and said its now DOA. The local dealer is now waiting for Ford Corporate to try to reboot it. They said "maybe" we'll know more by next Tuesday. That'll be two weeks minimum because my turn signals were acting up and the dash error messages were flashing crazy messages on a truck that's been around for decades. I don't think I'd be an early adopter of a Ford EV.

Thatís funny, the lesson here for me is that nowadays a diesel is at least as complicated as an EV, if not more so.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:59 AM   #55
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It is a lot of money. And it creates a lot of jobs pollution and isn't necessarily better for the environment not to mention the child labour. But it creates a whole new industry.

The technology is complicated and expensive. Isn't going to last long before needing to be replaced which will mean more money. Not to mention that you are held ransom to your automotive manufacturer for spares. I doubt that there will be a whole world of 3rd party suppliers and repair places based on how complicated the production of these are. If you find one though and I'm sure they will spring up I wouldn't trust them. You have no idea what actually goes into the production and testing of these products.

For me this is a job. I'm not sure I like it yet, but I've been involved with automotive engineering and manufacturing on and off now for 30 years and it just gets more and more complicated and expensive.

I liked the solar industry much better. Mostly for the travel and the engineering. It also isn't that clean. If you saw the pollution our plant created making the ingots you'd be appalled. So then we sold that plant and just bought in the silicon wafers instead. Much better.

Everything comes down to money. Solar wasn't any different. We set up plants for anyone that wanted to go into this business. Just come up with the money provide the building and we did the rest. Now we are leveraging that for building batteries. Although much of the constraints and engineering come from the automotive companies, it is a partnership. We can provide everything. So far we've worked with and for many of the main players.

Personally I wouldn't buy one, although my type of commute would lend itself perfectly to this. I like my diesels and I don't want to be held hostage to some company. That being said buying a new car today means that there is a lot of technology in your car. The likely hood of you fixing electronic related issues are slim. Heck the dealerships can't even fix them if it isn't a simple replacement of a module. So guess what, you're just going to give up and buy another. That's the world we've created. For me I'm trying to hold onto my relics. But if everyone did that I'd be out of work and so would a lot if others. So but new and embrace the new world.
I agree with your analisys.
Without forging ahead into unknown we would not learn anything new.
It should be done by the privat sector however without government subsidies spurred on by politics.
Let the market place be the final arbitarator of what is successeful .
Allowing politics into market place is the most distructive to real advancement.
I am all in for government funding rersearch projects through universities again without using it as political football.
I spent a number of years upgrading the undergrund infrastucture at Argonne National Laboratories. (Fundig is by the Department of Energy and operated by the University of Chicago ). Along with upgrading the sewer and water infrastructure we built a new laboratory waste water processing facility which they never had prior to that and seen first hand how effective Argone was to that greater good.
Among other things they designed task spacific software for small businesses without charge.
This was back in the nineties.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:35 PM   #56
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I agree with your analisys.
Without forging ahead into unknown we would not learn anything new.
It should be done by the privat sector however without government subsidies spurred on by politics.
Let the market place be the final arbitarator of what is successeful .
Allowing politics into market place is the most distructive to real advancement.
I am all in for government funding rersearch projects through universities again without using it as political football.
I spent a number of years upgrading the undergrund infrastucture at Argonne National Laboratories. (Fundig is by the Department of Energy and operated by the University of Chicago ). Along with upgrading the sewer and water infrastructure we built a new laboratory waste water processing facility which they never had prior to that and seen first hand how effective Argone was to that greater good.
Among other things they designed task spacific software for small businesses without charge.
This was back in the nineties.
I agree. Government subsidies can create a false economy. Case and point the whole solar movement. Once the government's withdrew their subsidies a lot of the companies closed. Look at europe. We put in a pile of solar plants and today I don't think one is left. Our company did the same. We sold of the equipment at pennies on the dollar. Just to get rid of it. It didn't pay to keep the plants.

But now we have another problem where panic has set in around the world and this panic is driving policies that it shouldn't. Europe now has to meet specific goals on emissions that can only be achieved with hybrids. This is completely stupid since hybrids are the most complicated of all the technology and it really doesn't benefit most people or the environment. But you have a people buying it because it's perceived that it is environmentally friendly and now because of government mandates created by perception. Or should that be deception?

Perception is reality unfortunately. Welcome to the new world.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:41 PM   #57
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Back to BEV vans.

This is competition for the Transit electric. Workhouse just announced that they have received their certificate of compliance to be able to sell and operate their battery electric vans on US roads.

Low range, great for start and stop operation such as last mile delivery. Monocoque construction. Modular batteries. This is what the electric Transit is designed to compete against, just as an example.


Story here: https://insideevs.com/news/402702/wo...approved-sale/
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:51 PM   #58
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But now we have another problem where panic has set in around the world and this panic is driving policies that it shouldn't. Europe now has to meet specific goals on emissions that can only be achieved with hybrids. This is completely stupid since hybrids are the most complicated of all the technology and it really doesn't benefit most people or the environment.
Europe isn't pushing hybrids, they are being pushed by traditional ICE manufacturers who have decided not to compete on battery electric vehicles (BEVs) for whatever reason. PHEVs are a stopgap. Some manufacturers have called this out, and said that they won't be investing in development of hybrids because, as you say, they are complex, expensive, and most people don't need them. They are just designed to address consumer range anxiety. GM is in this group, as is Volkswagen.

Looking at the October 2019 sales totals for plug in vehicles in Europe, 7 of the top 10 (and all of the top 4) were not PHEV hybrids, but rather pure electrics.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:59 PM   #59
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. . .
This is competition for the Transit electric. Workhouse just announced that they have received their certificate of compliance to be able to sell and operate their battery electric vans on US roads.
. . .
Great info, thanks for the link.

Peter
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:09 AM   #60
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Europe isn't pushing hybrids, they are being pushed by traditional ICE manufacturers who have decided not to compete on battery electric vehicles (BEVs) for whatever reason. PHEVs are a stopgap. Some manufacturers have called this out, and said that they won't be investing in development of hybrids because, as you say, they are complex, expensive, and most people don't need them. They are just designed to address consumer range anxiety. GM is in this group, as is Volkswagen.

Looking at the October 2019 sales totals for plug in vehicles in Europe, 7 of the top 10 (and all of the top 4) were not PHEV hybrids, but rather pure electrics.
I didn't say that Europe was pushing them. Hybrids are a result to meet the requirements for emissions. Which shouldn't be the case. Yes it's a stop gap in this lunacy of emissions. Hopefully this won't come to NA. But with our current government and the idiot's that keep electing them we may not be far behind.

https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/...hicles/cars_en

It doesn't go into a lot details, but the penalties are extreme.
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