Ford aluminum pick ups

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by SilverCabin

Good decision on the truck. I've seen too many people pulling 30' and bigger Airstreams with F-150s. I wouldn't want to be in front of them on a 6% or greater downhill.

Randy

Well said! Agree 100%!

[montgomg]

Been a good discussion. My current 2011 ford f150 extended cab weighs in at about 5600 pounds. The new alum F150 are about 4800 to 4900 pounds. A F250, same configuration in gas, is around 6400 pounds. Pulling a 28 FC at about 6600 pounds loaded my current truck does fine. Just returned from a trip from central Missouri to Moab, Utah and back, traversing the always fun Wolf Creek pass on Hwy 160 along the way.
I can't imagine using a lighter truck in the cross winds of Kansas and in the mountain passes. Ford,I believe, has done an injustice selling a lighter vehicle to do the job of a heavier truck.
The sad thing about the F250'S is the fuel mileage in the gas versions. The Ford forums are filled with real life calculated fuel mileages both towing and empty and it is pretty bad. I get around 12.5 mpg towing now. Some with the 250 are getting that on the highway empty!
Pulling a bumper hitch trailer is totally different than a fifth wheel. The math on what you can and cannot do is totally different. I am looking for factors of safety- not how light can you go. Thanks for the responses.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I do believe that if you get out the parts catalogs and do some digging, you will find that the F150, F250, and F350 all use 13" brake rotors. If you are buying the F350 over the 150 for "bigger brakes" .... not so much. You need to get into the 450 before the rotors get any bigger.

Bob

[jcl]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

I do believe that if you get out the parts catalogs and do some digging, you will find that the F150, F250, and F350 all use 13" brake rotors. If you are buying the F350 over the 150 for "bigger brakes" .... not so much. You need to get into the 450 before the rotors get any bigger.

Bob

150 is a little smaller diameter; 250 and 350 are the same.

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...2019-F-150.pdf

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...Super-Duty.pdf

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

I do believe that if you get out the parts catalogs and do some digging, you will find that the F150, F250, and F350 all use 13" brake rotors. If you are buying the F350 over the 150 for "bigger brakes" .... not so much. You need to get into the 450 before the rotors get any bigger.

Bob

If you price the rotors you will find this is definitely NOT the case. When you pick them up you’ll know for sure.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

If you price the rotors you will find this is definitely NOT the case. When you pick them up you’ll know for sure.

It is a simplistic comparison in any case. Stopping power will be related to rotor diameter, but fade resistance will be related to thermal mass, cooling fin design, and so on. But that is all considering just the brakes; braking performance comparisons have to consider the increased weight of the heavier duty truck.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

It is a simplistic comparison in any case. Stopping power will be related to rotor diameter, but fade resistance will be related to thermal mass, cooling fin design, and so on. But that is all considering just the brakes; braking performance comparisons have to consider the increased weight of the heavier duty truck.

bigger truck, bigger brakes, better stopping power for the TV. Simple, right??

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

bigger truck, bigger brakes, better stopping power for the TV. Simple, right??

Sorry, I don't understand your comment. Too cryptic for me.

Bigger truck weighs more. Resultant longer stopping distance for equivalent brakes.
Bigger truck with bigger brakes: which has more impact, truck weight or rotor diameter?
Stopping power is likely limited more by traction (tires, suspension) not by brakes.
All this relates to the first stop. Now consider multiple brake applications, eg descending a long hill and overusing the truck brakes. Fade comes into play.
Bigger heavier brakes have more thermal mass, so more fade resistant (except if the truck is heavier, which results in fade sooner, as noted above).
What really matters is the brake cooling performance.
Typical disk brakes have non-directional cooling fins. Performance vehicles (like German SUVs) have directional cooling fins, with much better resultant cooling (it does mean there are different rotors for left and right).

So, the best braking will come from a lighter vehicle, with larger brakes, with high performance rotors with an advanced design for improved cooling.

Simple.

We have a history in this part of the world with very large logging trucks, much bigger and heavier than highway trucks. And they had water cooled brakes. If you can't make the vehicle lighter, and want to maintain stopping ability on long hills, then the focus is to improve the cooling.

[Gene]

I just measured the rotor diameter as best I could on our '07 Tundra—hard to do with a wheel on, but it looked to be just shy of 14". Towing is not good for brakes and I rebuilt the brakes a year and half ago and installed better ventilated rotors on the front—perhaps they are a little bigger diameter than stock. The specs for the 2019 Tundra are 13.6" and I think stock rotors were the same size in 2007. Rotor diameters aren't everything, but if it is, it looks like it is time to get rid of your Fords and buy a Tundra. We also have engine braking, good tires and the handling is fine. We always downshift going down hill and have never felt we are going to lose control nor have we had overheated brakes or transmission.

I know everyone has the best truck ever made, but in some ways they are all very similar. Our Tundra is somewhere over 6,000 lbs. and the 5.7 L. gas engine will easily tow a 25' Airstream over the high Colorado passes at 65 mph (better to drive slower unless you own a gasoline company). I wish, however, Toyota had gotten serious about gas mileage and Ford is to be praised for bringing out the Eco-Boost and a lighter truck. I'm not sure aluminum is a bad choice for a truck even though Chevy claims it, but that would mean a truck made of stone would even be better than steel or aluminum. Tundra reliability is extraordinary and the truck runs like new at 127,000 miles. We made the best choice for us and feel as safe as one can be, though safety has a lot to do with the driver too. "Scare quotes", bold face, italics, exclamation points and underlines do not change that.

If people want a bigger, heavier truck, so be it. If that makes driving feel safe, then it is a good choice. If you feel unsafe, even if objective reality is that you are safe, you will not only feel bad, you are more likely to have problems. I see people towing medium sized trailers with Freightliners. Perhaps a Unimog would be a good tow vehicle for some people. I don't understand the necessity for bigger in every case, but maybe they had a Freightliner in their garage and their daily driver is a Smart Car.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

Sorry, I don't understand your comment. Too cryptic for me.

Bigger truck weighs more. Resultant longer stopping distance for equivalent brakes.
Bigger truck with bigger brakes: which has more impact, truck weight or rotor diameter?
Stopping power is likely limited more by traction (tires, suspension) not by brakes.
All this relates to the first stop. Now consider multiple brake applications, eg descending a long hill and overusing the truck brakes. Fade comes into play.
Bigger heavier brakes have more thermal mass, so more fade resistant (except if the truck is heavier, which results in fade sooner, as noted above).
What really matters is the brake cooling performance.
Typical disk brakes have non-directional cooling fins. Performance vehicles (like German SUVs) have directional cooling fins, with much better resultant cooling (it does mean there are different rotors for left and right).

So, the best braking will come from a lighter vehicle, with larger brakes, with high performance rotors with an advanced design for improved cooling.

Simple.

We have a history in this part of the world with very large logging trucks, much bigger and heavier than highway trucks. And they had water cooled brakes. If you can't make the vehicle lighter, and want to maintain stopping ability on long hills, then the focus is to improve the cooling.

Cryptic? What is cryptic about it?? You do know my "summary" was a brief overview right? My experience with 4 different AS's and 5 different TV's is when towing a larger AS above 25', the newer technology for towing with 3/4 & 1T PU's is obvious in my experience, vs my lighter 1/2T or the earlier Tahoe's I had with my 3-25' AS's. I feel I have more control with a larger TV with my 28'; also, better braking (including engine brake), much more power for going up/down/around in the Rockies at 60-65, and of course more payload. But, this topic or "argument" has been covered at nauseum here on many different threads...including arguments for/against TV's...I am happy with my choice..YMMV

[devolo]

Rotors are only one component of a braking system. What about the calipers? How many and what size are the pistons in the calipers? What about the size of the brake pads too? Is anyone familiar with the differences in the calipers between the ford models? Consider the capacity of the master cylinder and the size of brake lines feeding the calipers too (the brake fluid volume and pressure).

[DKB_SATX]

It's funny how the "bigger better brakes!" in HD pickups never seem to result in better braking performance in instrumented testing...

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Cryptic? What is cryptic about it?? You do know my "summary" was a brief overview right?

Well, I assumed you were being sarcastic, but wasn't sure, since your final statement didn't follow from your first two clauses. Knowing now that you actually intended it seriously then yes, it appears it was too cryptic.

Here was why it didn't follow. You didn't consder:

Truck weight (presumably your bigger truck weighs more)
Traction (tire performance)
Suspension (keeping the tires in full contact with the pavement)
Fade (stopping once is easy)
The importance of brake cooling on long descents, when an operator is most likely to need the truck brakes to compensate for overdriving the trailer brakes. (low tech truck brakes are unlikely to be top performers)

I summed it up differently:

Originally Posted by jcl

So, the best braking will come from a lighter vehicle, with larger brakes, with high performance rotors with an advanced design for improved cooling.

Simple.

Another way of looking at it is to consider that typical high performance SUVs have brakes designed for stopping from autobahn speeds. Brake energy is the conversion of kinetic energy to heat. It increases linearly with mass of the TV, but exponentially with design speed. Let's say you have a GVWR of a half ton, and you increase the GVWR for a 3/4 ton by some factor. 1.5? Now consider the design speed. Each of those trucks will have a similar speed considered by the designer. Now go to an X5 governed to 150 mph, or the sport version which does 170 (governed for tire ratings). They have monster brakes, larger than HD pickups. Because design speed matters a lot more than weight.

That was why I didn't understand your comment.

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

It's funny how the "bigger better brakes!" in HD pickups never seem to result in better braking performance in instrumented testing...

Exactly. Because they aren't designed to produce better braking performance. They are bigger to compensate for the heavier truck. If you want to stop better, get a vehicle with brakes designed for a higher speed (the X5 is just an example) and tow at normal speeds. That will be the best braking performance you can find. But the HD truck fan will mock the SUV as a serious towing vehicle.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

Well, I assumed you were being sarcastic, but wasn't sure, since your final statement didn't follow from your first two clauses. Knowing now that you actually intended it seriously then yes, it appears it was too cryptic.

Here was why it didn't follow. You didn't consder:

Truck weight (presumably your bigger truck weighs more)
Traction (tire performance)
Suspension (keeping the tires in full contact with the pavement)
Fade (stopping once is easy)
The importance of brake cooling on long descents, when an operator is most likely to need the truck brakes to compensate for overdriving the trailer brakes. (low tech truck brakes are unlikely to be top performers)

I summed it up differently:



Another way of looking at it is to consider that typical high performance SUVs have brakes designed for stopping from autobahn speeds. Brake energy is the conversion of kinetic energy to heat. It increases linearly with mass of the TV, but exponentially with design speed. Let's say you have a GVWR of a half ton, and you increase the GVWR for a 3/4 ton by some factor. 1.5? Now consider the design speed. Each of those trucks will have a similar speed considered by the designer. Now go to an X5 governed to 150 mph, or the sport version which does 170 (governed for tire ratings). They have monster brakes, larger than HD pickups. Because design speed matters a lot more than weight.

That was why I didn't understand your comment.



Exactly. Because they aren't designed to produce better braking performance. They are bigger to compensate for the heavier truck. If you want to stop better, get a vehicle with brakes designed for a higher speed (the X5 is just an example) and tow at normal speeds. That will be the best braking performance you can find. But the HD truck fan will mock the SUV as a serious towing vehicle.

Ah, I understand...your making an argument for an SUV?? They pull great on flat surfaces with smaller TT's...but those who are "committed" to this type of an X5 SUV TV won't understand the value a larger TV adds with a larger TT (25-33'), unless they have compared going up/down/around the Rockies at 60-65mph feeling pretty relaxed- no "white knuckle" experience nor concerns from the wife.

The new technology with the newer TV's is amazing! When I select the "auto engine brake", Tow/Haul mode, and cruise, the computer helps regulate everything making for a much smoother towing experience ..yes, mechanical equipment you mention; tires, suspension, bigger brakes, etc. are indeed part of the equation, but you fail to comprehend how the newer technology with a diesel engine and heavier frame, along with WDH add the feeling of control when pulling a larger AS...I'm happy,wife's happy, much less stress and of course more payload...YMMV of course!

[MAJORJDB]

I agree w/gypsydad, my F-250 6.2 ext-cab w/8' box gasser also has tow/haul settings for downhill grades and has worked very well all over the US towing our 31' AS @8000 lbs loaded. The X-5 is a great SUV, but I wouldn't tow my AS with it and feel safe. Maybe up to 25' or so, but not much larger... Just because you can doesn't mean you should!!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Ah, I understand...you’re making an argument for an SUV??

Not at all. The SUV was just an example. Braking performance is not based on body style. All of the details about TV weight, traction, suspension, and brake cooling apply to a half ton vs a HD pickup, if that is all you are considering. Just don’t assume that a bigger heavier truck has better braking performance without accounting for those factors.

[SilverCabin]

Stock HD trucks come with 18” wheels just like stock half-ton trucks, so you may not be getting bigger brakes after all.

I think this thread has strayed pretty far away from the OP’s question.

[Sandspur]

Originally Posted by VeloBuckeye

I used to pull our 2018 FC27 with a 2011 F150 V8. Recently made the switch to to 2018 F150 Powerstroke Diesel. All around better in every way. No issues with lighter aluminum weight.

Averaged 11-11.5 MPG with the old F150 -- the new F150 averaged 16 MPG on our recent 1800 mile outing a couple weeks ago.

Roger that. Went from '03 Tundra v-8 to '18 F-150 Diesel and got 3000lbs more tow capacity while going from 9-10 to ca 15mpg (and 24+ unhitched). 10 speed tranny in tow-haul mode makes a world of difference, and is great coming down pretty steep grades with engine braking. I watch my payload and trailer loading with new 26FC, but a great TV. Turn off Ford's Trailer Sway Control. You will have to do that every time you stop and restart engine, but safer.

[Knotflying]

Originally Posted by VeloBuckeye

I used to pull our 2018 FC27 with a 2011 F150 V8. Recently made the switch to to 2018 F150 Powerstroke Diesel. All around better in every way. No issues with lighter aluminum weight.

Averaged 11-11.5 MPG with the old F150 -- the new F150 averaged 16 MPG on our recent 1800 mile outing a couple weeks ago.

Same experience as Buckeye. First F150, first Powerstroke for us. Towing 2019 TB 27FB. 2 trips out and tows lovely. Averaged 17 mpg. _

[gypsydad]

MPG update: just turned 64,500 miles on the F250 6.7D, and now have put 22K on the 28'AS FC...averaging 13.2mpg towing this trip since leaving TX in late May. I am at 4,500' above sea level here in Lincoln, and I have driven to the WA coast over the 8K'ft Rockies with several trips up to Glacier this year. That's up from 12mpg last year towing. Unhitched I average 16.7mpg driving about 300 miles a week thru the Rockies from Lincoln to Helena or Great Falls, when we are not camping with the AS. I still love this truck as a TV for ride, performance, and payload with our 28'! This trip last week to Hungry Horse, Apgar (West Glacier), and Placid Lake we took along the Kayaks; more truck=more fun.