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Old 11-29-2021, 06:08 PM   #1
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EV tow vehicle

Amazing. Why have Chinese engineers addressed towing capacity while the domestic EV pickups do not. Check out their tow capacity.

https://interestingengineering.com/c...BDM8__QCbDXIa0
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:35 PM   #2
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I don’t think that towing capacity is much better (if at all) than the claims by domestic BEV trucks. I don’t really see anything special there. The rooftop solar panels are cool, but a bit of a gimmick.

Range is the limiting factor when towing with a BEV, not towing capacity.
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:41 PM   #3
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To old to hold my breath...

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Old 11-29-2021, 07:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoasteng View Post
Amazing. Why have Chinese engineers addressed towing capacity while the domestic EV pickups do not. Check out their tow capacity.

https://interestingengineering.com/c...BDM8__QCbDXIa0
It estimates range, but not while towing which is the major issue. Not a particular fan of the look.
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Old 11-29-2021, 10:12 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by suncoasteng View Post
Amazing. Why have Chinese engineers addressed towing capacity while the domestic EV pickups do not. Check out their tow capacity.
Uninteresting.

EVs can pull fine, it’s all about range. Range comes from battery pack size, which is a commodity part with no manufacturer differentiation. When they are cheap enough, everyone will be able to get the range.

As for solar… LOL

“a solar roof option can add up to 2,000 miles of range per year”.

So with Solar I can pull for an extra… 4 minutes a day. (2000 miles/365 days = 5.5 miles / day, then scale down for towing)

HARD PASS
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:01 AM   #6
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Current Battery and Solar voltage output technology will never and can not replace gas and diesel engines. Period. End.

There is nothing on the horizon that will, either.
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:16 AM   #7
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Current Battery and Solar voltage output technology will never and can not replace gas and diesel engines. Period. End.

There is nothing on the horizon that will, either.
Long live the dinosaurs....

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Old 12-05-2021, 11:48 PM   #8
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Rivian towing in the wild:

https://insideevs.com/news/552133/ri...wed-2700miles/

This rig is about 2000 lbs lighter than mine, and they got about 100 miles per charge
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Old 12-06-2021, 08:05 AM   #9
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With all due respect, I've long given up on any factual and/or reliable things coming from China unless it's made under contract with a major manufacturer that holds them to quality.

That Rivan info though disturbing is not completely unexpected. Perhaps a Hybrid system like the Chevy Volt or maybe the GM hybrid trucks they once made, retooled to serve primarily as a tow vehicle. Cost would be a factor I'm sure, but if you could boost 5-8mpg using this tech while towing, it could extend mileage by at least a hundred miles. (20 gallon tank x +5mpg increase). Largest fuel consumption is on take off and hills, so with electric boosting or flat out full engagement during those times.... The tech was already out there, so not a lot to recreate, but sans battery tech getting wildly better, laws of physics might not be able to solve range when towing without 2-3x the battery capacity which at least today, even with lower batter costs = much higher cost for vehicle.

I did a somewhat similar comparison when I wanted to put that Tesla solar roof on my house. I got woo'd by the rebates and the thought of not paying $150-$200 in electric costs every month.

Problem was multifaceted-

Cost was ridiculously high, even after rebate. I could buy a lifetime of coal, nuclear, wind, etc power from a utility for that price and, the panels do degrade over time. Same in this scenario. You can buy a lot of fossil fuel for the time spent every 100 miles charging and/or the massive battery capacity costs to boost that to say 200 miles, which from my understanding would require doubling the battery pack size using avail tech as it stands today.

I was hoping for a bit better range, but at least we now are starting to see some real world info from out in the wild.
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Old 12-06-2021, 08:44 AM   #10
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Interesting article on CNBC about Hydrogen. Musk downplays hydrogen fuel cells. But the hauling industry states that for over the road and rail transportation a battery alone will not suffice. It will for short runs in cities. So their money is on hydrogen fuel cells that one can quickly "fill up." But the technology just isn't there yet for cost effectiveness. And ironically it takes fossil fuels to make hydrogen which is very expensive. I'm no scientist, but it seems that for the near future fossil fuels are inevitable for towing vehicles where you want more than a 100 mile range.

Personally when I look at my driving habits a quality hybrid pickup that I could drive 30 to 40 miles on a charge, and then go to gas would be ideal. I don't think we will see that in 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickups for quite some time. Maybe someone knows more about that and can enlighten me. But the vast majority of my driving is in the 30 to 40 mile range. And it is something that I could easily charge up at home. But towing takes ICE right now; unless you aren't going very far.

I saw an article somewhere that Ford had actually put in 2 motors; one ICE and the other EV. The EV had quite a good range. Not sure whatever happened to the idea. Probably just too expensive.
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Old 12-06-2021, 08:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XCountry View Post
Rivian towing in the wild:

https://insideevs.com/news/552133/ri...wed-2700miles/

This rig is about 2000 lbs lighter than mine, and they got about 100 miles per charge
They did make an estimate that maybe in 10 years we could double that range. But if it takes 1 hour to charge according to the article, who is going to mess with that? I just don't think today's consumer wants to sit for an hour waiting for a vehicle to get "gassed" up. And then what if you can't get a charging station right away and have to wait for someone else. Not good. The logistics seem pretty daunting.
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Old 12-06-2021, 08:55 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Daquenzer View Post
Interesting article on CNBC about Hydrogen. Musk downplays hydrogen fuel cells. But the hauling industry states that for over the road and rail transportation a battery alone will not suffice. It will for short runs in cities. So their money is on hydrogen fuel cells that one can quickly "fill up." But the technology just isn't there yet for cost effectiveness. And ironically it takes fossil fuels to make hydrogen which is very expensive. I'm no scientist, but it seems that for the near future fossil fuels are inevitable for towing vehicles where you want more than a 100 mile range.

Personally when I look at my driving habits a quality hybrid pickup that I could drive 30 to 40 miles on a charge, and then go to gas would be ideal. I don't think we will see that in 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickups for quite some time. Maybe someone knows more about that and can enlighten me. But the vast majority of my driving is in the 30 to 40 mile range. And it is something that I could easily charge up at home. But towing takes ICE right now; unless you aren't going very far.

I saw an article somewhere that Ford had actually put in 2 motors; one ICE and the other EV. The EV had quite a good range. Not sure whatever happened to the idea. Probably just too expensive.
Your last paragraph isn't new. Chevy Volt (2011 - 2019) is a great solution. Decent local range with an ICE backup. I still think this application, while maybe not for passenger cars, is perfect to be upsized for pickup trucks and FSSUVs. I have always maintained that it it a mistake for GM to abandon this technology completely. It would make a great tow vehicle.
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Old 12-06-2021, 09:38 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
Your last paragraph isn't new. Chevy Volt (2011 - 2019) is a great solution. Decent local range with an ICE backup. I still think this application, while maybe not for passenger cars, is perfect to be upsized for pickup trucks and FSSUVs. I have always maintained that it it a mistake for GM to abandon this technology completely. It would make a great tow vehicle.
Bob Lutz, the VP in charge of overseeing the Volt's development actually said that in hindsight, taking a car that already could achieve higher MPG and converting to the Voltec was probably a mistake. He then went on to say that they should have started from the other end of the spectrum, meaning the fuel guzzling trucks and SUVs.

My Volt consistently gets around 40mpg when in gas mode (on those rare trips the ICE even runs) because GM never lets you fully deplete the battery. They leave about 15-20% so the battery never fully discharges, so the car in essence goes from pure electric to a hybrid assist.

In reality all the tools are already there to make this happen, and I am pretty sure that major auto manufacturers already know that the price of the battery packs to build a truck or SUV that could get 200-300 towing is just cost prohibitive, at least today based on what real world use we are seeing. The beauty is that even if you don't plug in or recharge on the road, you can run in pure gas mode with a plug in hybrid.

The other thing I've been hearing pick up some traction is inductive charging built into the pavement. How practical that might be in the rural areas or at all, I can't say, but without much larger batteries or some new tech that doubles or triples the density (storage), inductive on the roadway, hybrid or pure fossil is about the best we can hope for. Personally I am a bit bummed that 100 is the cut off, I was hoping for closer to 200, but that might have been a pipe dream on my part.
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Old 12-06-2021, 11:58 AM   #14
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Bob Lutz, the VP in charge of overseeing the Volt's development actually said that in hindsight, taking a car that already could achieve higher MPG and converting to the Voltec was probably a mistake. He then went on to say that they should have started from the other end of the spectrum, meaning the fuel guzzling trucks and SUVs.

My Volt consistently gets around 40mpg when in gas mode (on those rare trips the ICE even runs) because GM never lets you fully deplete the battery. They leave about 15-20% so the battery never fully discharges, so the car in essence goes from pure electric to a hybrid assist.

In reality all the tools are already there to make this happen, and I am pretty sure that major auto manufacturers already know that the price of the battery packs to build a truck or SUV that could get 200-300 towing is just cost prohibitive, at least today based on what real world use we are seeing. The beauty is that even if you don't plug in or recharge on the road, you can run in pure gas mode with a plug in hybrid.

The other thing I've been hearing pick up some traction is inductive charging built into the pavement. How practical that might be in the rural areas or at all, I can't say, but without much larger batteries or some new tech that doubles or triples the density (storage), inductive on the roadway, hybrid or pure fossil is about the best we can hope for. Personally I am a bit bummed that 100 is the cut off, I was hoping for closer to 200, but that might have been a pipe dream on my part.
I have a 2018 (gen 2) Volt, and of course had a lot of factory training. Gen 2 doesn't have as big of an upper and lower buffer as Gen 1. I also get 40 - 42 mpg on pure gas mileage...but we use ours, not only as a local driver, but use it on regional trips, rather than our 6.2L truck. So, I'm at 53% electric for lifetime. It is expensive to have two powertrains, but it would be perfect for us here.

Inductive charging was proposed (for customer's garages) back when I was still working. It had some problems, safety wise and distance from floor to car. Great idea....not ready for prime time.
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Old 12-06-2021, 01:06 PM   #15
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It is expensive to have two powertrains, but it would be perfect for us here.
I took our Pacifica in for service, and just out of curiosity asked the cost on a hybrid engine for the Pacifica. $9,000! Yikes. Definitely expensive for 2 power trains.
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Old 12-07-2021, 12:59 AM   #16
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The challenge with BEV towing range is that if you come at this from a light duty vehicle standpoint, designed for x miles with a light load, then the range when towing will suffer, due to both combination weight and aero effects.

Much better to come at this from a vehicle designed to pull a heavier load, and lighten the load. And the tow vehicle while we're at it.

The Tesla Semi has an 80,000 lb trailer capacity by design, so the range is spec'd for that load. It has four drive motors on two drive axles. All the batteries, for either the 300 or 500 mile version, are packaged between the front axle and the forward rear axle.

So if Tesla produced a single axle version, standard low cab, standard wheelbase, 2 drive motors, and rated it under 26,000 lbs (no CDL required) it would have no issues towing a 10,000 lb Airstream. Put a custom box on it for tools, cargo, bike garage, etc.

Something like this, drawn here to scale. The truck width is identical to a wide body Airstream. The truck height is very close to the AS when equipped with AC. This one shown is a Globetrotter 30. Now that would be a tow vehicle worth waiting for. And we wouldn't have to bother debating WD hitches or tow ratings.
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Old 12-07-2021, 07:31 AM   #17
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Inductive charging was proposed (for customer's garages) back when I was still working. It had some problems, safety wise and distance from floor to car. Great idea....not ready for prime time.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/am...g-on-the-530e/

FYI. BMW has been doing this for a few years.
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Old 12-07-2021, 07:40 AM   #18
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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/am...g-on-the-530e/

FYI. BMW has been doing this for a few years.
OK, I've been out of the game for 3 years....so... I am sure it will be commonplace soon. Embedded in the roads? Probably longer, if for no other reason than extraordinary cost.
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Old 12-08-2021, 08:09 AM   #19
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The challenge with BEV towing range is that if you come at this from a light duty vehicle standpoint, designed for x miles with a light load, then the range when towing will suffer, due to both combination weight and aero effects.

Much better to come at this from a vehicle designed to pull a heavier load, and lighten the load. And the tow vehicle while we're at it.

The Tesla Semi has an 80,000 lb trailer capacity by design, so the range is spec'd for that load. It has four drive motors on two drive axles. All the batteries, for either the 300 or 500 mile version, are packaged between the front axle and the forward rear axle.

So if Tesla produced a single axle version, standard low cab, standard wheelbase, 2 drive motors, and rated it under 26,000 lbs (no CDL required) it would have no issues towing a 10,000 lb Airstream. Put a custom box on it for tools, cargo, bike garage, etc.

Something like this, drawn here to scale. The truck width is identical to a wide body Airstream. The truck height is very close to the AS when equipped with AC. This one shown is a Globetrotter 30. Now that would be a tow vehicle worth waiting for. And we wouldn't have to bother debating WD hitches or tow ratings.
I wish the Rivian had done better; hope that it can improve.

But I'm looking at this idea, starting with the big tower and scaling down... problem is, it still needs further scaling back. I don't want to be sitting up at semi-height going down the road, with the driver's seated position up above the front wheel. I don't want something as tall as the AS once the AS is parked and camp set up, and I'm running about town... it needs to be 'normal vehicle sized' at that point. Keep that power level, but have it SUV or pickup-sized, and you might be onto something.
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Old 12-08-2021, 08:43 AM   #20
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The way I see it, we could today have a vehicle towing and getting 200+ miles per charge. The question is, how much would you be willing to pay beyond the current $70k+ for said conventional truck/suv? Besides real estate to house the battery packs, you are talking, at least based on what's been communicated from the wild on the Rivian solution, 2x the battery capacity to just get to 200 miles. Assuming the trucks used, have at least 135kw battery pack and at approx $132/kwh to double the range you'd be talking an additional, what, $17k?! No question the 135k battery pack can go 300+ miles not towing, but since this is an RV forum, towing is paramount, so 100 miles +/- isn't gonna cut it.

Even as a staunch EV friendly type guy, you can buy about 4900 gallons of fuel at $3.45/gal with an average mpg towing of 12mpg (gas lower/diesel higher) you can travel nearly 60k miles on the cost of doubling the battery pack just to get to 200 miles towing....and given the size of Rivian's truck/suv, I doubt there is enough real estate to park an additional 135kw battery pack without tearing into the cabin/usability of the truck, which then seems to indicate either a monster sized truck or a semi type truck to be able to accommodate 270-300kw battery packs but understand for each lb of weight you add for more capacity/range you have to add even more capacity, so eventually you start to chase down the rabbit hole of no return with the current technology....unless some new technology comes out that provides far greater density than current batteries. I've been into EVs since about 2011 and if I had a buck for each new, better and more efficent battery that was just around the corner.......eventually, yes, today and maybe tomorrow, not so sure, which is disappointing, but not unexpected.
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