EV tow vehicle

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

The Rivian charge time is a result of a much heavier vehicle, with a larger battery. The pro trip is to look for an efficient vehicle.

I don't need to ask anyone else about longer trips (not towing), as we do it regularly, and have been doing so for over a year.

We head off in two days for a trip across the Rockies, usually 1050 km each way, but this time 1360km each way due to road closures from flooding. We do it every few months, usually in one day each way, but won't this time due to road conditions. We have 500 km range on our vehicle, but typically run less between charges; Austin to Dallas is 320 km on the route planner. 320 km would not require charging along the way. This is not towing, but I gather your son in law was not towing with his Tesla either.

It is completely practical today if not towing. At 17 kwh/100 km for our vehicle, and $.09 per kwh (our utility rate), that is $0.016 per km, or $0.026 per mile, not figuring in all efficiencies. Will be more to charge on the road. Of course, many can charge at home with solar, and avoid even this cost.

What is your vehicle fuel cost per mile?

In terms of towing, I wouldn't tow a large Airstream with a BEV yet. But it is coming. So are vastly more charge stations. Charging is already easier than getting gas (since most charging is at home, and requires no trip to a gas station), it is just the towing range that is an outstanding issue.

Better question might be, what is "your" vehicle cost per mile, when towing an AS... My cost per mile is quite high while towing, thanks to Biden: $.23/mile currently when towing; was $.15 last year... still high for sure! For me, I don't see any near term solutions that will fit with our travel lifestyle with our AS...

When you and Matterfred actually own an AS and an EV, please share your real life experiences. Right now, it's all speculation, right?

[Mattedfred]

Incorrect. Sometimes a little remedial education can be beneficial.

Speculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

Research: the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Starting to get the sense that the sharing of research, opinions and facts by those that don't currently own an Airstream are not welcomed by some, however, that is pure speculation on my part.

Interesting

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by Mattedfred

Incorrect. Sometimes a little remedial education can be beneficial.

Speculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

Research: the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Starting to get the sense that the sharing of research, opinions and facts by those that don't currently own an Airstream are not welcomed by some, however, that is pure speculation on my part.

Interesting

I, for one, am always interested in what people have to say. I generally try to qualify my experience if I provide guidance and hope people do the same. Just because you aren't or haven't towed an airstream does not mean you know nothing about tow vehicles!

I will say that personally, and perhaps other members of the message board are less particular about this, that posting a short description of what a video/link is about rather than just posting "look at this" will allow people to better decide if it is worth their time to click and watch. That's just a side note. I hope you have a wonderful, fun, and safe experience with your airstream when it comes. This board was helpful to me beyond measure when we got our first ever trailer just over four years ago.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

Interesting article today in Wall Street Journal about lithium price surges due to shortages. This idea that we will seamlessly go from ICE to EV is nonsense. This is going to be a very very complex transition. One that I believe will take much longer than anticipated.

Title:
Lithium Prices Soar, Turbocharged By Electric-Vehicle Demand and Scant Supply

By the way do you think the demand would be there without the subsidies? There is a reason Elon Musk said the government should get out of the market.

Supply and demand; always exists (witness the current fuel prices at the moment). New sources of Lithium are being developed so that's good. And of course Elon thinks the government should get out of this, now that he received hundreds of millions in government funding.

[Mattedfred]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

I, for one, am always interested in what people have to say. I generally try to qualify my experience if I provide guidance and hope people do the same. Just because you aren't or haven't towed an airstream does not mean you know nothing about tow vehicles!

Thanks very much for that. If only more members that shared your beliefs felt as comfortable sharing them as you do.

Apologies that I wasted your time if you clicked on either YouTube link. I found both of them to be very informative and pertinent, in the context of the ongoing discussion.

[Daquenzer]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

Supply and demand; always exists (witness the current fuel prices at the moment). New sources of Lithium are being developed so that's good. And of course Elon thinks the government should get out of this, now that he received hundreds of millions in government funding.

Yes, Musk got lots of government money. The government can only continue the subsidies for so long though. At some point they have to stand on their own. I just talked to Chrysler dealer and I can get a $7500 rebate on a Pacifica Hybrid. So Musk isn't the only one.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

I, for one, am always interested in what people have to say. I generally try to qualify my experience if I provide guidance and hope people do the same. Just because you aren't or haven't towed an airstream does not mean you know nothing about tow vehicles!

I will say that personally, and perhaps other members of the message board are less particular about this, that posting a short description of what a video/link is about rather than just posting "look at this" will allow people to better decide if it is worth their time to click and watch. That's just a side note. I hope you have a wonderful, fun, and safe experience with your airstream when it comes. This board was helpful to me beyond measure when we got our first ever trailer just over four years ago.

Exactly; not meaning to "diss" legit posts, but we do see "trolls" here from time to time. Nothing wrong with sharing knowledge, and different points of view, but little more information about the posts along with background/experience goes a long way to credibility...rabbit holes being a waste of time for sure!

[Mattedfred]

One wonders who is the ultimate judge of whether a post is 'legit', the member is a 'troll' or has any credibility?

Gotta say, Engineering Explained's YouTube Channel was the best 'rabbit hole' I ever went down. Lotta facts though.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

I won't bother digging up the data at the moment but you should know for a fact that as of a few years ago it is cleaner (CO2 wise) to charge and operate an EV than to run an ICE for similar distance. This was true in the west for a long time but is not true in all the major sectors of the grid. I do this for a living so dig if you want or just believe me when I say that it is true. Similarly, there are already people recycling automotive batteries and it is improving/increasing all the time. Private industry and government are all working on this. Same with mining (new project to get Li from the Salton Sea, for instance). The good thing about batteries is that when they are used up, they still contain basically as much Li as they did at the start so you do not need to mine more Li at some point.

The myth that one pollutes more than the other will never go away regardless how many studies are done. There are way to many memes people take as fact, including a “lithium mine” which is actually a copper mine.

[Dennis C]

I don’t necessarily think it’s a case of believing that one pollutes more than the other as much as a belief by some that a BEV produces zero net pollution/emissions. My point was that while there are no tailpipe emissions (there’s no tailpipe after all), BEVs aren’t yet truly zero pollution vehicles. Many people believe that they are zero pollution vehicles. I believe we’ll get there one day when we can produce electricity in better ways.

As for mining issues, I was thinking more specifically of cobalt mines in the Congo. I’ve read about multiple issues there, but I haven’t seen it for myself. What’s the latest on the cobalt mines?

[Mattedfred]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I don’t necessarily think it’s a case of believing that one pollutes more than the other as much as a belief by some that a BEV produces zero net pollution/emissions. My point was that while there are no tailpipe emissions (there’s no tailpipe after all), BEVs aren’t yet truly zero pollution vehicles. Many people believe that they are zero pollution vehicles. I believe we’ll get there one day when we can produce electricity in better ways.

As for mining issues, I was thinking more specifically of cobalt mines in the Congo. I’ve read about multiple issues there, but I haven’t seen it for myself. What’s the latest on the cobalt mines?

I highly recommend Engineering Explained's YouTube Channel. He has lots of excellent videos where he explains EV. I recommend the one where he calculates whether you're better off keeping your old car, buying a new one or going EV and the other one where he explains why the electrical grid in the USA will be handle the charging demand. I learned a lot from these tow videos alone.

[Dennis C]

Thanks. I’ll take a look.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Hey, where is all that "power" for these EV power stations being generated; not by carbon producing fuel, I hope! Who is paying for these to be installed all over the place...I have seen them going up in very unpopulated areas of MT and WY last summer, in rest areas? Are they being subsidized by us tax payers? (don't remember being asked to vote on this?) How long does it take to charge an EV and what does it cost to go the next 150-200 miles? Any actual data vs the "soon to be extinct" gas powered TV's we all are using? Just when I think it would be "cool" to own one of these for towing my AS, reality sets in...what a costly inconvenience this is going to be if we are truly forced to make the switch in next 10 years...hope I am wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...49549b61e19433

An article about the installation of a lot of EV charging stations. As noted, the grid is getting cleaner all the time. At some point that will stall out until either batteries for grid get better established or nuclear grows (IMHO). But for now things are heading this direction. I also believe that bill calls for a lot of hydrogen infrastructure, by the way. I suspect both EV and FC vehicles will play a role and ICE will become more niche at some point. But for now, I'm towing with a diesel!

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...49549b61e19433

An article about the installation of a lot of EV charging stations. As noted, the grid is getting cleaner all the time. At some point that will stall out until either batteries for grid get better established or nuclear grows (IMHO). But for now things are heading this direction. I also believe that bill calls for a lot of hydrogen infrastructure, by the way. I suspect both EV and FC vehicles will play a role and ICE will become more niche at some point. But for now, I'm towing with a diesel!

Did you actually see Harris trying to figure out how to plug in the car in the news yesterday, of course with that trade mark "giggle"! You would think at this point, they would brief these folks on what they are going to be doing, how it works, etc., before putting them on TV.

[Dennis C]

I’ve got a ChargePoint Level 2 charger in my garage that we use for 99% of our charging needs. I’ve used public chargers around the Denver area multiple times, and I agree that the network is improving. I think the greatest need is for Level 3 chargers, and those are less common. I’ve had good success charging with Electrify America stations at Walmart super centers. They’re generally Level 3 DC rapid chargers, and they’ll charge my battery in less than 30 minutes. Level 2 or Level 1 chargers are more common, and they take much longer. A Level 2 charger takes 4 - 8 hours for my 90 kWh battery, depending on state of charge when I begin the process. A Level 1 charger is really more of a trickle charger and it takes a day or more to charge the car. It’s ideally suited for airport charging where the car will be parked for a couple of days.

When the Level 3 charger network becomes more widespread, things will be much easier for EV owners.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I’ve got a ChargePoint Level 2 charger in my garage that we use for 99% of our charging needs. I’ve used public chargers around the Denver area multiple times, and I agree that the network is improving. I think the greatest need is for Level 3 chargers, and those are less common. I’ve had good success charging with Electrify America stations at Walmart super centers. They’re generally Level 3 DC rapid chargers, and they’ll charge my battery in less than 30 minutes. Level 2 or Level 1 chargers are more common, and they take much longer. A Level 2 charger takes 4 - 8 hours for my 90 kWh battery, depending on state of charge when I begin the process. A Level 1 charger is really more of a trickle charger and it takes a day or more to charge the car. It’s ideally suited for airport charging where the car will be parked for a couple of days.

When the Level 3 charger network becomes more widespread, things will be much easier for EV owners.

Interesting the difference in level 1 and level 3, but still, 30 min to charge (if your lucky enough to find a level 3) vs 10 min to fill up a TV, and filling stations most everywhere?

I see the Tesla charge stations also going up close to us. My son had his Tessla Model X less than a year and sold due to the hassle/time synch of charging when on the road. I mentioned earlier, my son in law, is selling his at the end of his lease for same reason; a trip to/from Dallas takes him twice as long in his Tessla; not cost efficient in terms of time vs using his other SUV. I get the interest; just not practical for a TV as others here agree.

The real question we need to digest is: What is an "abundance" of these level 3 charging stations going to do to the "grid" in our neighborhoods? We have issues already keeping electricity all over the country when there are brown outs, rolling blackouts due to weather, or wildfires (Northern CA?) throughout the year!

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by gypsydad;

The real question we need to digest is: What is an "abundance" of these level 3 charging stations going to do to the "grid" in our neighborhoods? We have issues already keeping electricity all over the country when there are brown outs, rolling blackouts due to weather, or wildfires (Northern CA?) throughout the year!

Most cities don’t have widespread issues with power delivery. Power demands by industry are already huge. California already has problems and these may get worse for them. Upgrading the power grid and producing power creates jobs and I look forward to it.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I don’t necessarily think it’s a case of believing that one pollutes more than the other as much as a belief by some that a BEV produces zero net pollution/emissions. My point was that while there are no tailpipe emissions (there’s no tailpipe after all), BEVs aren’t yet truly zero pollution vehicles. Many people believe that they are zero pollution vehicles. I believe we’ll get there one day when we can produce electricity in better ways.

As for mining issues, I was thinking more specifically of cobalt mines in the Congo. I’ve read about multiple issues there, but I haven’t seen it for myself. What’s the latest on the cobalt mines?

Efficiency of a single engine does not even come close to that of even the dirtiest power plant that serves several million customers and they are getting cleaner. No one worries that much about pollution anyway or they would quit driving and I see zero evidence if that. I worry a bit but I’m not giving up my diesel, switching to a compost toilet, or eating tofu. I’d just like to commute without buying gasoline.

The cobalt mines are…still producing cobalt. To see one just google lithium mine 😂

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Interesting the difference in level 1 and level 3, but still, 30 min to charge (if your lucky enough to find a level 3) vs 10 min to fill up a TV, and filling stations most everywhere?

I see the Tesla charge stations also going up close to us. My son had his Tessla Model X less than a year and sold due to the hassle/time synch of charging when on the road. I mentioned earlier, my son in law, is selling his at the end of his lease for same reason; a trip to/from Dallas takes him twice as long in his Tessla; not cost efficient in terms of time vs using his other SUV. I get the interest; just not practical for a TV as others here agree.

The real question we need to digest is: What is an "abundance" of these level 3 charging stations going to do to the "grid" in our neighborhoods? We have issues already keeping electricity all over the country when there are brown outs, rolling blackouts due to weather, or wildfires (Northern CA?) throughout the year!

Just to be clear; you are located in Texas and Wyoming and therefore likely have more 300+ mile trips that people east of the Mississippi. I only pull my Airstream more than 200 miles at a time once per year; down south and back again for the Holidays. So it's not a show stopper here. Even my regular vehicles rarely take trips more than 100 miles (pre-pandemic). Maybe once or twice a year I might drive more than 200 miles in a day. So for 99% of my driving an EV would work great, and trucks are quickly going to be at the point where it would work for me towing as well.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

Just to be clear; you are located in Texas and Wyoming and therefore likely have more 300+ mile trips that people east of the Mississippi.

I am not the one you were addressing, but I want to thank you. Do you realize just how rare it is for ANY EV advocate to acknowledge that other people may have different needs and that an EV is not right for everyone?